Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

Guy MovingOn

Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 7)

Recommended Posts

Anyone have a pork normande SV recipe or experience (pork with apples, cider, cream)?

My instinct is to cook the cubed shoulder pork somthing like 12 hours at 60C in the hard cider, then finish with cream, apples, vegetable garnish etc

Its not confit - it needs to be meltingly tender but retain some structure

This all depends on the final texture you want. We do pork shoulder for up to 48 hours at 60C. You get different texture at 24, 48 and 72 hours. We also like it at 65C for 36 hours, or pressure cooked for one hour. Each is very different result.

I think you will find that the fatty portions are not quite tender enough if you do only 12 hours.

Given your description I would guess 24 to 48 hours at 60C is your best bet.


Nathan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quick Q: anyone ever SV banana leaf for an extended period of time? Wondering if it will go bitter like aromatics.

I've done things wrapped in banana leaf - like a yucatan style pork shoulder, rubbed with achiote and lime, wrapped in a banana leaf and cooked at either 155F for 24 hours, 176 for 12 hours, or 182 for 8 hours... the banana leaf didn't impart that much flavor at 155, but it imparted a lot of aromatics at both 176 and 182... neither of them were bitter, although we didn't actually eat the banana leaf (does anyone actually do that?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone have a pork normande SV recipe or experience (pork with apples, cider, cream)?

My instinct is to cook the cubed shoulder pork somthing like 12 hours at 60C in the hard cider, then finish with cream, apples, vegetable garnish etc

Its not confit - it needs to be meltingly tender but retain some structure

When I want the the shoulder to be tender but still retain some structure in "chunks" I can carve on the plate. I go 65 for 36 hours, good luck and I'd like to hear about the outcome! Are you going to burn off the alcohol from the hard cider before the vacuum?


Sleep, bike, cook, feed, repeat...

Chef Facebook HQ Menlo Park, CA

My eGullet Foodblog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shoulder is cubed before cooking. Maybe brined.The skin crisped and puffed seperately

I ws going to seal it with some apple juice, apple brandy (not burnt off - only a small glassful), some cider vinegar, softened onions, bay leaf and seasoning.

After cooking, reduce the bag juice and finish with creme fraiche and caramelised apple slices.

I think red cabbage, rice or mashed potato might go well,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shoulder is cubed before cooking. Maybe brined.The skin crisped and puffed seperately

I ws going to seal it with some apple juice, apple brandy (not burnt off - only a small glassful), some cider vinegar, softened onions, bay leaf and seasoning.

After cooking, reduce the bag juice and finish with creme fraiche and caramelised apple slices.

I think red cabbage, rice or mashed potato might go well,

Is the alcohol in the best place?

Might it not be better to leave it out of the sv bag and perhaps flambée the meat (or maybe simply (rustically?) fortify the sauce) before service?

One of the appealing (to me anyway) concepts of sv is the possibility of accurate 'prototyping' or 'test driving' - making a single portion of a recipe to test the idea (or perhaps a few single portions with variations, for example to compare different durations) - before making a large quantity for any sort of 'event'.

This approach is surely particularly apt with materials like cubed pork ... isn't it?

It mainly requires enough time (just simmering time, rather than man-hours) before the event, rather than any other resources.


"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the appealing (to me anyway) concepts of sv is the possibility of accurate 'prototyping' or 'test driving' - making a single portion of a recipe to test the idea (or perhaps a few single portions with variations, for example to compare different durations) - before making a large quantity for any sort of 'event'.

This approach is surely particularly apt with materials like cubed pork ... isn't it?

It mainly requires enough time (just simmering time, rather than man-hours) before the event, rather than any other resources.

That is a REALLY good point - SV does not rely on size effects, so you can test drive a small portion and it will work well. Indeed that is how we test things for the book - we do multiple pieces and then cook them for various times. When we like a time-temp combintaion we do a larger sample to be sure.


Nathan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shoulder is cubed before cooking. Maybe brined.The skin crisped and puffed seperately

I ws going to seal it with some apple juice, apple brandy (not burnt off - only a small glassful), some cider vinegar, softened onions, bay leaf and seasoning.

After cooking, reduce the bag juice and finish with creme fraiche and caramelised apple slices.

I think red cabbage, rice or mashed potato might go well,

I just recently cooked and wrote about a sous vide pork shoulder I did here. I found out that arount 70C for about 20-22 hours worked great for my purpose and it is similar to what you are looking for. It sliced great and crisped nicely but was also tender and unctuous.

Pork Shoulder-Plum Sauce-Rice-Carrots.jpg


E. Nassar
Houston, TX

My Blog
contact: enassar(AT)gmail(DOT)com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some time ago I cut a pork shoulder in three parts, bagged them with marinade (9 days at 1°C) and cooked them SV at 55°C for 24h / 48h / 72h, post-searing in almost smoking-hot rice-bran-oil.

72h was fork-tender, succulent and almost falling apart, but in its lean parts a bit dry.

24h and 48h were tender, succulent and juicy, but not perfectly fork-tender.

In all three cases the fat was perfectly soft, there was a nice crust, and the interior was pink after some contact with air.


Peter F. Gruber aka Pedro

eG Ethics Signatory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking to SV pork spare ribs with dry rub as a means of shortening the time in the smoker.

My intention is SV beforehand for however long, freeze, then on day of serving thaw and stick in the smoker for hour or so at higher than normal(220-250) smoking temps,

eg 300 to get them colored fast and fat rendered for taste.

I know the rub should be reduced a bit, any suggestions for temps and time ?

Don't want to do 812hours cooks though.

Actually, I've just read Douglas's site and have a starting point, although his method is intended for complete cook.


Edited by lennyk (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For pork, you could brine for a day, then do 131-135 Fahrenheit for 6-8 hours to get the collagenase to do its duty on the meat and get it medium rare. It'll still be tough and none of the fat will have rendered. You intend to finish the cooking in the smoker, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, spare ribs are normally 4 hours or so at 235 in the smoker,

wanna be able to reduce that to 90 mins or so and get the color/smoke flavor in

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Smoking them first and then finishing on a grill works really well, btw. I've done it a few times now and the results are excellent: some char, rendered fat, and meat just the way you like it (whatever that means).

Wanted to report on a few vegetable projects following Keller's Under Pressure 85C advice.

Pumpkin fans should take note that SV is, far and away, the best way to prepare this finicky squash. I put ~3/4" cleaned, skin-on pieces into a bag with nothing else, and after 60m they were tender and bright, bright orange. After testing it out of the freezer, I'm planning to do several more so that we have a store of pumpkin for the fall.

Also at 85C, I SVed small red potatoes with rosemary, pepper, and smoked salt for 90m and finished them on the grill for some smoke and char. I think 120m would have been a better time if I wasn't finishing on the grill, as they were a bit too toothy out of the bag.

One note about these potatoes: they were somewhat grey and splotchy out of the bag. I'm not sure if they were that way in the bag or if something happened when they hit the air. Anyone got an opinion?


Chris Amirault

camirault@eGstaff.org

eG Ethics Signatory

Sir Luscious got gator belts and patty melts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like what happens when potatoes oxidise. You could try adding some acid to the bag which should give a similar effect to putting it in acidulated water.


Edited by nickrey (log)

Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"The Internet is full of false information." Plato
My eG Foodblog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I intentionally avoided acid in the bag for flavor reasons, trying to replicate a roasted potato dish we have here often. I wish I had been more attentive and knew whether they were blotchy in the bag or immediately after the cut faces being exposed to the air. I also wonder how deep the blotches go....


Chris Amirault

camirault@eGstaff.org

eG Ethics Signatory

Sir Luscious got gator belts and patty melts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with Chris A. Smoke them first. They only need 10 to 20 minutes in the smoker. I would do that at a lower temp than 235 F if you can. Then bag them. The earlier in the cooking process that the smoke is introduced, the better in my experience. Smoking after the meat is cooked doesn't seem to work as well.

!0 minutes in the smoker before sous-vide should be adequate. The smoke flavor is then locked in the bag during cooking and penetrates nicely.

Use the search button at the bottom of the page to look for 'ribs'. I posted the temperature/time that I used for some killer baby back ribs that came out smoky and tender.

Yes, spare ribs are normally 4 hours or so at 235 in the smoker,

wanna be able to reduce that to 90 mins or so and get the color/smoke flavor in

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

Also at 85C, I SVed small red potatoes with rosemary, pepper, and smoked salt for 90m and finished them on the grill for some smoke and char. I think 120m would have been a better time if I wasn't finishing on the grill, as they were a bit too toothy out of the bag.

One note about these potatoes: they were somewhat grey and splotchy out of the bag. ... Anyone got an opinion?

Maybe Iodised salt ??


"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does iodine limit oxidation?

ETA: It was Hawaiian pink salt, btw, not iodized.

OK, if you've eliminated that, then its out already.

Blackening of starch is a very sensitive test for dissolved iodine.

If that were somehow being liberated (even to a truly tiny extent), there would be the possibility of trying to eliminate it by using non-iodised salt.

But you are already!

Do you have a sample of this batch of potatoes to test (for comparison) by conventional cooking? That way you might see whether the unconventional cooking method had contributed to this artifact, or whether it was due to something in the potatoes, like their (pre-purchase) storage and handling conditions.


"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't noticed it posted here yet, but y'all should have a look at the excellent article in today's NYTimes on "Modernist Cuisine":

www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/dining/22cookbook.html?_r=1&ref=dining

I hope I live close enough to regularly visit someone who can afford to buy Nathan's obviously amazing work.

Has there been previous discussion of the possibility of digital/DVD/etc. or online access to it?

Cheers, Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like KitchenAid is making a foray into the market for sous vide equipment with a system called Chef Touch. It has a chamber vacuum unit, a freezer/chiller unit, and a steam oven unit - but oddly no water bath - all stacked together in a stainless steel tower.

Here's a YouTube video. I imagine the system is only avaliable in Europe, and no doubt shockingly expensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pork normande results.

36 hours at 60C was definately too long or too hot, giving the pork shoulder cubes a fuzzy blotting paper texture.

24 hours at 58C is about the upper limit, for melt in the mouth texture.

If you are planning on re-heating I would scale that back to 18 or even 12 hours

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Looks like KitchenAid is making a foray into the market for sous vide equipment with a system called Chef Touch. It has a chamber vacuum unit, a freezer/chiller unit, and a steam oven unit - but oddly no water bath - all stacked together in a stainless steel tower.

I don’t know anything about steam ovens, but does the use of steam imply that they’re cooking at the boiling temperature of water? Also, wouldn’t a steam oven have far less heat conductivity than a water bath?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like KitchenAid is making a foray into the market for sous vide equipment with a system called Chef Touch. It has a chamber vacuum unit, a freezer/chiller unit, and a steam oven unit - but oddly no water bath - all stacked together in a stainless steel tower.

Presumably the steam oven works just like a combi-oven, right? That's what a lot of professionals doing large quantities of SV are using these days. I don't see why you'd want or need a water bath if you had one.


Chris Hennes
Director of Operations
chennes@egullet.org

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone tried he Kenwood cooking chef http://www.kenwoodworld.com/en/CookingChef/Home/ which builds an induction cooker into a mixer, albeit at a high price?

The web stite states temperature control in +/- 5C, with a precision on 2C, and this for a stirred system. It seems to me that the manufactureres are missing a trick here. At the high price they charge it surely could not have been that expensive to add a more precise PID temperature control...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Similar Content

    • By Porthos
      I picked up enough boneless short ribs to make 3 meals for my Sweetie and me. One meal will be pan-braised tonight. One has been vacuum-sealed and is in the freezer. My question is about seasoning, sealing, freezing, then defrosting and cooking at a later date. I'd like to season and seal the 3rd meal's worth. Can I use a dry rub on the meat, then seal, freeze, and cook at a later date? Does anyone else do this?
    • By newchef
      So I've now found myself at the water's edge of Modernist Cuisine.  Specifically, using sodium citrate for emulsifying all kinds of cheeses.  What I'm after is making an emulsified Parmesan sauce as well as another emulsified cheese sauce (most likely using Cheddar or Colby) that I can freeze and use later.  I'm a single guy and am no stranger of tweaking recipes for freezing but I haven't done it for modernist stuff yet.  I'd love to make a big batch of cheese sauce, freeze it into ice cubes for up to 3 months or so, and then take a few cubes out to thaw on a weeknight and toss with pasta, drizzle over veggies, etc.
       
      I looked at the modernist cuisine FAQ and saw this specific post about the cheese sauce that is "probably" freeze-able because it uses something called carageenan.  Has anyone been able to freeze sauce and keep it frozen for, say, a few months?  And not have to use carageenan?
       
      Thanks!
    • By WackGet
      Recently I picked up a few different types of emulsifiers in bulk powder form when I saw them in passing at a catering wholesaler.
       
      Having never used powdered emulsifiers before in cooking or baking, I figured I'd find pretty comprehensive instructions for their use on the web - but I can't.
       
      I'm not a stranger to food science but nor am I a chemist. I understand that emulsifiers are at least sometimes prepared by pre-mixing them into a (heated?) liquid or fat and then using the resulting solution in the actual recipe, which may explain why a lot of commercial emulsifier mixtures are packages as tubes of gel or paste. I've also checked several industry-level textbooks about emulsifiers and while they are fantastic for in-depth explanations of the chemistry behind each emulsifier, they do not (as you might imagine) provide guidance on how a lowly baker or cook would actually use a powdered form.
       
      So does anyone know how to prepare and use a dry powdered form of any of the following in a real recipe?
       
      Specifically I am most interested in enhancing baked goods and adding stability to sauces, but would also like to know how to use them for other processes such as sausage-making too.
      E471 Mono- and diglycerides of fatty acids E481 Sodium stearoyl lactylate E482 Calcium stearoyl lactylate E472e DATEM (diacetyl tartaric acid ester of mono- and diglycerides)
        Thanks.
    • By mjbarnard
      I cooked two turkey breasts sous vide. This year had access to the Meater+ thermometer probe which I managed to vacuum seal in the bag without difficulty (it is small). Since it works wirelessly I was able to monitor and it records the internal temperatures at the thickest part of the breast.
      I thought the results were interesting. I cooked at 60C for 8 hours. I have always used https://www.chefsteps.com/activities/a-better-way-to-turkey-cook-that-bird-sous-vide-for-the-best-feast-ever which gives long cooking times at lower temperature. I have found that as according to this page https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2014/11/sous-vide-turkey-breast-crispy-skin-recipe-thanksgiving.html that 55C gives turkey which is just a little too pink for most tastes. Over the last few years have increased the temperature up to 59/60 and I find it perfect - very moist and tender, but pale not pink.
      See attached images. I changed my mind a couple of times and started at 58 then 60 then 59 again, so ignore the slight variations. The thing I found interesting was that the thickest part (of a large breast) reached 55C in around 1 hour 40 mins and target of 59 in 2 hours 30 mins. Now I appreciate that sous vide is a combination of temperature and time or duration, but the data make me think that around 4 hours would be sufficient, as per the seriouseats table. I have previously used the chefsteps 55-58 for their much longer advised times, up to 12 hours and the meat is still quite pink at the end, so I dont believe 55 for 12 hours would effectively be the same.
      From now on I will watching the internal temperatures with interest. This has always been the (relative) unkown for sous vide amateurs. 


    • By chefg
      I have to say designing the Alinea kitchen has been one of the most exciting experiences thus far in the opening of this restaurant. I have been fortunate to have been “raised” in some of the best kitchens in the country. When I arrived at the French Laundry in August 1996 the “new kitchen” had just been completed. Often times you would hear the man talk about the good old days of cooking on a residential range with only one refrigerator and warped out sauté pans with wiggly handles. When I started about 50% of the custom stainless steel was in place. The walls smooth with tile and carpet on the floors. I recall the feeling of anxiety when working for fear that I would dirty up the kitchen, not a common concern for most cooks in commercial kitchens.
      The French Laundry kitchen didn’t stop, it continued to evolve over the four years I was there. I vividly remember the addition of the custom fish/canapé stainless unit. Allowing the poissonier to keep his mise en place in beautiful 1/9 pan rails instead of the ice cube filled fish lugs. Each advancement in technology and ergonomics made the kitchen a more efficient and exacting machine.
      When I returned to the Laundry this past July for the 10th anniversary I was shocked that it had metomorphisized once again. The butcher room was now a sea of custom stainless steel low boys, the pot sink area was expanded, the walk-in moved, and an office added to the corner of the kitchen. The kitchen as I left it in June of 2001 was beautiful and extremely functional, of course it is even more so now. It is the relentless pursuit of detail and concise thought that allows the French Laundry kitchen to be one of the best for cooks to execute their craft…..16 hours a day.
      This was good motivation.
      When it came time to design my kitchen I drew on experiences at Trio, TFL and other kitchens I was familiar with to define the positives and negatives of those designs. We were faced with a 21x 44' rectangle. This space would not allow for my original kitchen design idea of four islands postioned throughout the kitchen, but ultimately gave way for the current design which I think is actually better than the original. But most the important aspect in shaping the final design was the cuisine. Due to the nature of food that we produce a typical layout with common equipment standards and dimensions do not work. Here is where the team drew on our experiences from Trio. By looking at the techniques we utilized we came to several conclusions.
      1. A conventional range was not our main heat source. We do need the flat tops and some open burners for applications such as braising and limited stock work. But our overall use of this piece of equipment is somewhat low. Given that we wanted four open burners and two flat tops with two ovens I began to source out a reliable unit. We settled on the Molteni G230.

      2. Upon analyzing our other heat source needs we decided to place a large focus on induction. By utilizing portable induction burners we are allowed the flexibility to give as much power as needed to a specific station in the kitchen. Obviously induction’s radiant heat is very low, and this allows us to keep the temperature in the kitchen reasonable, yet the power is quite high. 31,000 BTU's of highly controlable heat. But the main reason for choosing this flexible source of heat is the fact that each chef typically employed at least four different cooking applications on a given night. This huge flux in technique and the realization that the menu would change entirely in 8 weeks time meant that we had to design a kitchen that could evolve on a nightly basis. And last, we are very specific with temperatures; induction makes it easier for us to hold a liquid at a predetermined temperature for long periods of time without fluctuation. They operate between 85 and 500 degrees farenheit. We did a great deal of research on the different producers of induction and favored Cooktek. The fact that they are the only U.S manufacturer of commercial induction cooking equipment and located in Chicago made the decision easier. Their innovative approach to induction may prove to be even more exciting as we are already talking about new product development in the future.

      3. a. The complexity of the presentations and a la minute plate-ups of the food require a great deal of surface area devoted to plating. This was one of the most critical factors in determining the basic shape of the kitchen. The size of some of today's popular plates, the amount detail in each composition, coupled with the fact that producing tasting menus vs. ala carte means sometimes large waves of same dish pick ups made it necessary for us to have over 44' of linear plating surface.
      b. Virtually nothing goes vertical above the 36” counter top in the space. All food, plates, equipment, and dry good storage are contained by under counter units. There are a few exceptions such as the infrared salamanders, the three-door refrigerator, and the hood. This allows all the cooks a clear line of communication between each other and the front staff. It allows me an easy sight line to survey the entire kitchen’s progress with a quick glance.
      Given these two points it seemed obvious that we needed to combine the two and create custom pieces that would fulfill both needs. Large spans of plating surfaces with all food and equipment storage below. As you can see we ended up with two 22’ long units. Each function as a pass and under counter storage.
      The building is 21’ wide wall to wall. This allowed us just enough space to create two lines on each exterior wall with their passes forming a 60” corridor for the pick up of plates and finishing of dishes.
      4. We decided to add a station to the kitchen. At Trio we had five including:
      a. pastry
      b. cold garde manger
      c. hot garde manger
      d. fish
      e. meat
      Now that we had more space, and the ability to give each station multiple heat
      sources regardless of their location in the kitchen, we could spread the workload even further. We also realized it doesn’t make much sense to identify each station by classic French Bragade terms. A saucier did not solely cook meat with classic techniques and prepare various traditional stocks and sauces…in fact quite the opposite. This holds true with most of the stations, with the exception of pastry, but even they will have very unconventional techniques, menu placement and involvement in the kitchen systems. We will add a station that will be responsible for a large majority of the one-bite courses both sweet and savory.
      5.Given the size constraints of the building we realized a walk-in would not be possible in the kitchen. If we were to have one it would be in the basement. Having experienced this at Trio we decided to design the kitchen without a walk-in, making up for the space in various lowboy locations and a three-door reach-in. I experienced the walk-in less environment when I worked at Charlie Trotter’s. It is certainly different, but as with most things if done properly it provides a very efficient environment. It works best in situations where fresh products are brought in daily for that days use. And prevents ordering in large quantities. It also provides us with very specific units to house different items. We will utilize the 3-door refrigerator to store the majority of the vegetables and herbs along with some staple mise en place, and items that cannot be made in very small quantities like stocks. Raw meat will have it’s own lowboys as well as fish, dairy, and all frozen products.
      6. At Trio we found ourselves using the salamander a great deal. It is very useful for melting sugar, bringing on transparent qualities in things like fat and cheese, cooking items intensely on only one side, and it is a highly controllable non-direct heat source. Due to the air gap between the foodstuff and the heat elements the cook can control the degree of heat applied to the dish based on the technique he is using. It becomes a very versatile tool in the modern kitchen, so much so that we will install three Sodir infrared salamanders.

      Again, this is to insure that all the cooks have access to all of the techniques in the kitchen. As I said before it is important for our cooks to be able to sauté, simmer, poach, fry, grill, salamander, and freeze at the same time and sometimes for the same dish.
      We have a few unusual pieces of equipment in the kitchen; the most is probably a centrifuge. A few months ago Nick and I were driving home from a design meeting and ended up talking about signature dishes and menu repetition. Of course the black truffle explosion came up and he asked if I would have it on the menu at Alinea. I replied a firm no, but shortly thereafter said I would enjoy updating it. We threw around some tongue and cheek ideas like White Truffle Implosion, and Truffle Explosion 2005….I said it was a goal of mine to make a frozen ball with a liquid center….but then dismissed it as nearly impossible. Within a few minutes he said …”I got it…we need a centrifuge” His explanation was simple, place the desired liquid in a spherical mold and place on the centrifuge…place the whole thing in the freezer. Within days he had one in the test kitchen. I guess this is better suited for the kitchen lab topic that we will be starting in a few weeks…
      We are working on a upload of the kitchen blueprints. When those post I plan on going into more detail about certian aspects of the design. Doing so now would be pointless as the viewer does not have a reference point.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...