The Sourdough Starter Topic

[julie99nl]

The Fresh Loaf may be a little more help in this.

First, what was your schedule? When did you last feed your starter, what exactly were the amounts, when did you bake with it after that feed? What recipe did you use and what kind of proofing times did you have?
It could be your loaf was underproved. It takes time and experience, but proving schedules in a recipe are a guideline that the baker needs to adapt to their own situation every single time you bake.

[weinoo]

You know, I started reading (okay, going down the rabbit hole) about "mini-starters," small sourdough starters, etc. etc.

 

I mean, from esteemed sources for sure. King Arthur sure seems to be writing a lot about it.

 

Quote

 But if you feel guilty about throwing out a lot of unused discard this feeding method — which uses a lot less flour — might be just what you’re looking for!

 

So do our friends at Cook's Illustrated (and they've got a #hashtag!):  Make Your Own Mini Sourdough Starter With the #Quarantinystarter Project

 

Quote

I shared my tiny starter project idea—a recipe included—to my Instagram account, as well as the Cook’s Illustrated one, and the idea quickly went, well, viral. 

 

I wonder if they were reading eGullet, oh I dunno, 11 years ago?

 

Sam explained it in greater detail in the post preceding mine. He also debunked the equal parts refreshment theory, but I guess Cook's Illustrated and King Arthur haven't gotten around to that yet.

Edited May 24, 2020 by weinoo (log)

[curls]

@weinoo thank you for linking to this older sourdough topic. When I thought about trying to make sourdough bread I found the eGullet sourdough bread course but I did not find the content you just linked too. Happily going down that rabbit hole of a topic!

 

The Cooks Illustrated author, Andrew Janjigian, wrote about moving from an equal parts refreshments to another ratio (1 part starter:2 parts flour:2 parts water) once your starter was active on his quarantiny starter blog. Sadly the content on his blog and in his instagram posts was pulled (suspect he is dealing with some legal issues with CI). Very interesting to read about the eGullet recommended refreshment ratios from the 2009 topic that you linked to.

 

In case anyone else would like to access go down a rabbit hole the eGullet courses (they can be difficult to find). Here are a few links:

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by curls
added links to eGullet courses and Q&A (log)

[weinoo]

The wheel can only be reinvented so many times..

 

My guess is the issues Janjigian is dealing with have to do with how many ways can Cook’s Illustrated monetize the issue. 

[curls]

1 hour ago, weinoo said:

The wheel can only be reinvented so many times..

 

My guess is the issues Janjigian is dealing with have to do with how many ways can Cook’s Illustrated monetize the issue. 

Indeed that is what I would think too but so far CI is providing his sourdough content for free and without website registration. They probably just wanted more website clicks.

Edited May 24, 2020 by curls (log)

[Pastrypastmidnight]

I’ve been feeding 3 times a day and keeping a very small starter, as recommended by @fullproofbaking on IG. She has a bunch of tutorials on YouTube and IG. 

My approximate and often flexible schedule:

I feed 5g of starter 10g flour (bread/ww mix) and 10g water at 7:00 a.m. (1:2:2)

2:00 p.m. discard all but 5g and feed 10g flour mix, 10g water. (1:2:2)
9:00 p.m. feed 5g starter 25g flour mix, 25g water.  (1:5:5)

 

The morning I want to mix dough I feed 15g starter with 30g flour mix and 30g water and use that in the bread mix for a ~650g loaf about 5 hours later and have just enough left over for my mid-day feed. 
 

6 years ago I kept a 67% stiffer starter and did 1 part starter, 2 parts water, 3 parts flour and fed twice a day. I liked that I had to knead to mix it—i could be sure everything was well incorporated, and it was more dramatic when it rose. But more recipes are written for a liquid starter and I got tired of doing the math 😂. 
 

But I’m really liking this micro starter. It’s very sweet and so much less waste. I just throw the spoonful of discard in the freezer and hold on to it until I have enough to make pancakes or waffles. 

These loaves were baked on that schedule with different amount of bulk fermentation (almost 5 hours, 6.5 hours, 8 hours). They all turned out pretty well. 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by Pastrypastmidnight (log)

[jimb0]

Starter waste has been one of my biggest cooking pet peeves, haha. i'm glad people are starting to realize how unnecessary it is; small amounts still have millions of microbial cells.

 

13 minutes ago, Pastrypastmidnight said:

 

 

 

These are lovely. What was the overall rough hydration level of your dough?

[Pastrypastmidnight]

2 minutes ago, jimb0 said:

Starter waste has been one of my biggest cooking pet peeves, haha. i'm glad people are starting to realize how unnecessary it is; small amounts still have millions of microbial cells.

 

 

These are lovely. What was the overall rough hydration level of your dough?

Between about 76 and 78% on these, I think. I wet my hands a lot with mixing and folding, so with a smaller amount of dough it affects the hydration. 
 

And I agree about the waste. When I started my first starter about 6 or 7 years ago I just couldn’t throw anything away for the first month or two. It hurt too much. I think I probably had over 100 sourdough waffles and around 50 soft pretzels in my garage freezer at one point in time and then my family was like, “Stop, Mom, please. We can’t take any more.” This is so much more manageable. I’ve actually had to build up my discard on purpose to be able to make things with it. 

[jimb0]

1 minute ago, Pastrypastmidnight said:

, “Stop, Mom, please. We can’t take any more.”

 

Ahahahahahahah

 

I got a text from my neighbour a couple of weeks ago asking me if i wanted any discard because they've jumped onto the wagon. 

[Pastrypastmidnight]

Just now, jimb0 said:

 

Ahahahahahahah

 

I got a text from my neighbour a couple of weeks ago asking me if i wanted any discard because they've jumped onto the wagon. 

I got my current starter from a friend a month or two ago. When I was pregnant with my last baby I developed a weird aversion to my starter. I couldn’t even look at it or think about it without throwing up. Then I could never face the prospect of a freezer full of waffles to start my own from scratch again. But quarantine... so I jumped back on the horse, but started with a well-developed micro starter this time. 

[Smithy]

*Bump* 

 

I ran across an article from Serious Eats today, discussing whether the type of flour used to make sourdough starter makes a difference. (TL;DR version: not in the long run although perfectionists may wish to make adjustments to recipes depending on the flour involved.) This topic could use a boost, because of an especially good discussion some years back. I'm now boosting it.

 

Serious Eats article: The Best Flour for Sourdough Starters: An Investigation.

[Soupcon]

I too saw that article and began my second foray into sourdough bread baking now that I have lots of time. An even better tutorial is the instagram account of Kristen Dennis called Full Proof Baking which takes you through 14 days of how to make and nurture a sourdough starter (also found on youtube). She also has a video of how to advance from the starter you have made to making a loaf and a video on how to dry your starter if you don't have time to bake from your starter for a long period of time and also how to rehydrate the starter back to leaven ready.

I am using unbleached AP flour that has a protein content of 13%. My first starter this time seemed normal until day two but appeared to be a little dry and had no evidence of activity. So at the beginning of day 3  I added about 1/2 tsp of distilled water which I mixed in thoroughly and to my amazement the starter began fermenting within an hour or two.  By the evening the starter had doubled in bulk so  I fed the starter a 1/1/1 ratio and by the next morning it had more than doubled again.  Here I failed miserably as I mistook vinegar for distilled water and had to throw the whole thing out and I started the whole process again. However I am very thrilled by how active the first starter was by the end of day 3 and am looking for success again with this attempt.

 

[Soupcon]

Finally success with my third attempt at making a sourdough starter. This time round there was no signs of life in the starter on the morning of day 2 so I just stirred the drying surface back into the water/flour base and eureka on the morning of day three I found the starter had risen by about 1/2 again and was full of tiny bubbles. So I fed with a 1/1/1 ratio of  20 gms each of starter, flour and water and covered with cheesecloth and left it alone. By mid afternoon it was quite active and I think I will feed again tonight with a 1/1/1 ratio.

 

 

[Owtahear]

Hey all, I am sure some of you have made your own starter from scratch.   I don't know if I am over thinking it.    But I have been at it for a month.   I have used some discard already and made some really awesome pizza.  I am now obsessed with home made pizza with home made dough and sauce.  

 

But my starter, does it really have to "float"?   I feed it daily, sometimes twice a day, it is obviously in a warm environment as it is in a sunroom and it has been sunny and 90's here (room temp probably ~76 degrees F) it smells good, I can see bubbles and air accumulate in the starter in the jar.  But it doesn't "float" when I put it in water.

 

I am using mostly organic, local whole wheat flour with occasional organic AP flour along with bottled, distilled water.

 

So.......thoughts???

[curls]

Is your pizza dough rising without the use of commercial yeast? If it is then I think your sourdough starter is fine even though it doesn’t float.

[Owtahear]

Nothing???  

[Barrytm]

There are a number of "tests" in baking that don't actually produce consistent results. Having the starter float is one of those.  It works for some , but not for others.  For one, floating depends on the amount of air trapped in the starter, and I always wondered how that could be an accurate test because when you spoon out some of the starter, you may displace more air one time than the next. In addition, some make their starters at 100% hydration  ( equal weights flour and water ) and others go to 125% - ( more water than flour ) and others use 75% ( more flour than water ), and the ratio of flour to water will impact how much it has to rise before it would float.

 

Generally, once you starter is established you can use it to make bread.  Sometimes I make bread with it a few hours after refreshing, sometimes 8 or 10 hours after refreshing, and sometimes I take it out of the fridge a few days after refreshing and it still works fine .  The amount of time it takes to give you the desired increase in bulk ferment may be impacted by its strength, but I have never had it fail to eventually lift the loaf.  

 

Some suggest that you refresh your starter in a straight sided container, and use it just after it peaks.  Others suggest using it before it peaks to get a sweeter flavor, or well after it crests to get a more sour flavor.  I wouldn't worry about the float test .  

[curls]

20 hours ago, Owtahear said:

Nothing???  

Seriously! My answer is nothing. Jeesh.

[Owtahear]

3 hours ago, curls said:

Seriously! My answer is nothing. Jeesh.

No.  I did make pizza dough, but also used dry yeast in the recipe.   I am just wondering for the overall health of the starter.    Unfortunately with the 95 degree heat here in the northeast, I am in no rush to make bread.

 

But my next two projects are:

 

Sicilian dough style pizza   and.....as we are now reaching tomato season, a really good crusty loaf of bread to make Pan Tomate.   I just don't want to get all excited and ready and then go for it and nothing happens with the rise.   I have been babying the starter between organic, local whole wheat flour organic white AP flour.  Evian water.  I may have had my water not warm enough.   But it is plenty hot here so the starter is seeing consistent 75-80 degree temps.

[curls]

Are you keeping track of how much your starter grows? Does it double or triple in volume within a 12 hour window? Have you tried baking bread with it without the addition of commercial yeast? Give us more information about how it behaves and more people will weigh in with their advice. Or perhaps it is doing well now...

[scott123]

On 7/13/2020 at 12:47 PM, Owtahear said:

I am using mostly organic, local whole wheat flour with occasional organic AP flour along with bottled, distilled water.

 

 

Whole wheat flour contains pieces of bran that act like tiny little knives which cut through the gluten in the dough.  It's essentially a volume killer.  This is why you rarely see 100% whole wheat breads, but, rather, find it as a fraction of a blend.  A little denseness can work in bread, but you really don't want a dense pizza crust.  Generally speaking, whole wheat flour isn't the best choice for pizza dough.  If you're dead set on adding it, both keep it to either 15% or less and combine it with a high gluten flour like Sir Lancelot. Bear in mind, though, every bit you add is volume lost.

 

Another volume/gluten killer is distilled water. It doesn't sound like you're using distilled water for your dough, which is good, but, the distilled water, combined with the whole wheat flour is why your starter isn't floating.

 

Not that ending up with a floating starter is going to solve all your problems.  Much like whole wheat flour is okay for bread but isn't ideal for pizza, sourdough is generally best for bread as well.  Bread is far more forgiving.  A lot of pizza books are, unfortunately, written by bread bakers, so it's fairly common to see home pizza makers treat pizza like bread.  Pizza is not bread.  Sourdough barely exists in the pizza world.  The handful of commercial entities successfully working with natural leavening devote their entire lives to mastering it- not days, not months... years, and, at the end of all that torture, the end result really isn't that different from commercial yeast (perceptible sourness is acid, and excess acid can be damaging to gluten).

 

If, after you successfully mastered commercial yeast, you want to go down the sourdough rabbit hole, feel free, but, until then, sticking to commercial yeast (IDY in a glass jar) will guarantee you the most stress-free consistent results possible.

Edited July 20, 2020 by scott123 (log)

[weinoo]

4 hours ago, scott123 said:

 Much like whole wheat flour is okay for bread but isn't ideal for pizza, sourdough is generally best for bread as well.  Bread is far more forgiving.  A lot of pizza books are, unfortunately, written by bread bakers, so it's fairly common to see home pizza makers treat pizza like bread.  Pizza is not bread.  Sourdough barely exists in the pizza world.  The handful of commercial entities successfully working with natural leavening devote their entire lives to mastering it- not days, not months... years, and, at the end of all that torture, the end result really isn't that different from commercial yeast (perceptible sourness is acid, and excess acid can be damaging to gluten).

 

If, after you successfully mastered commercial yeast, you want to go down the sourdough rabbit hole, feel free, but, until then, sticking to commercial yeast (IDY in a glass jar) will guarantee you the most stress-free consistent results possible.

 

Good explanation here. 

I try to explain to people why great pizza is so hard (certainly for me, and I've eaten some decent "commercial" pizza to compare against) to make at home, but often to no avail.  And it's why I so often simply turn to baking focaccia, a much-more forgiving product for a less-than-even-part-time baker like me.

 

It does seem as if now, much more equipment is available for the amateur pizzaiolo  to try and replicate the taste and texture of great pizza at home, with consistency. Certainly if you have a backyard, and certainly if you're willing to have your kitchen get very warm, especially in summer.

Edited July 20, 2020 by weinoo (log)

[Smithy]

5 hours ago, scott123 said:

Another volume/gluten killer is distilled water.

 

Can you (or anyone else) explain this, please? I haven't run across this bit of information before, and I'd like a chemical explanation.

[lindag]

I made KAF's Clay's Multi Grain Sourdough Sandwich Bread again yesterday.

Wonderful for toast as well as sandwiches.

[Owtahear]

2 hours ago, Smithy said:

 

Can you (or anyone else) explain this, please? I haven't run across this bit of information before, and I'd like a chemical explanation.

Yeah, that's a great question.  I have been using bottled water, because I read that regular tap water contains chlorines and they essentially help kill the natural yeasts.  So been using just your Evian water or other purified water.    Also, how important is temperature, I have been storing it at around 75 degrees, but that maybe too cool for the water, and I should warm it up to ~100 degrees?

 

That is interesting about whole wheat, and that the "shards" are prevalent never thinking that they would break glutens but essentially act as little needles that effectively would degas the CO2 building in the starter.  

 

Interesting, thanks for the help.  I am in the Northeast and these 95 degree days (relentless) have not motivated to make bread, but my next venture is to do a Sicilian style sheet pizza.    

Edited July 20, 2020 by Owtahear
wrong word (log)