How safe is food served at church potlucks?

[Gifted Gourmet]

article here

Every restaurant kitchen in Tennessee is inspected twice a year. However, health inspectors don't check church kitchens. The Centers for Disease Control reports food borne outbreaks at churches have made thousands of people sick. While church kitchens are exempt from state health department regulations, that shouldn't stop food handlers from observing safe health practices.

This is not specific to churches whatsoever, please note ...

Do you attend potluck dinners and eat blissfully unaware of the possibilities?

Isn't fellowship a very significant reason to attend these events?

So how do you handle this?

What issues might deter you?

[FistFullaRoux]

I have friends who read the restaurant health ratings before deciding on where to go for dinner. They have ice chests and oven/stove/grill space ready and at the right temp when people show up. I have other friends who would gladly leave the mayo in the pantry, even after opening.

It depends on the person in charge, and the facilities. It also involves the type of food being served. But nearly everything, even allowed to sit at room temp for a while is usually OK for an hour or so. I'll pass on the potentially dangerous stuff that's outside the safety zone.

For myself, I own two crockpots, several ice chests, and can make room for whatever else needs to be held at a higher temp (meatballs, casseroles, etc). I also have frozen a baking sheet full of water, that can then be used for bowls of dips and such. I'm a bit of a freak on that subject, though...

I know which people leave the mayo out on a regular basis, and steer clear accordingly.

[detlefchef]

I'm glad this was brought up. As a chef, I jump through all the hoops the Health Dept. asks me to. While I feel some are a bit excessive (mostly when it comes to build out, less so for daily procedures), I feel that they're pretty much just good practice. It always irritates me that the public at large tends to associate food poisoning with restaurants. if they come down with something, it's always, "Could it be the curry I had the other night at ..." Perish the thought that they could have gotten it by eating leftovers from a picnic that sat out 6 hours, got put away in the overcrowded fridge, on the same shelf that had thawing chicken the day before, then got snacked on the next day.

That said, I'm not enormously anal about pot lucks. Knowing that the health dept allows 4 hours for food to be out of safe temp, I assume that they're certainly playing it safe. Mind you, that time does include prep, but I figure it's not like the germs are sitting there with a timer and pounce the minute it hits 4:00.

I also think that most things don't taste good cold, so I'd rather allow these things to sit at room temp even it means throwing out the leftovers.

Finally, each and every time Ive gotten sick from eating something, I could pretty much tell as I was eating it. I think it's a reasonably safe barometer. If it tastes like wine and it looks like hummus, you may want to move on to something else.

[jsolomon]

Church potlucks are a reasonable barometer of how a group views their food hygiene, and while I wouldn't argue that perhaps a church ought to nominate a food safety officer for assisting with potlucks, I don't think that a church potluck is necessarily any more dangerous than a picnic or a barbecue.

Wate.com is trolling. They just want a sensational story on a slow day. Let's call a spade a spade.

Edit to add: am I the only one who noticed that their examples of food poisoning are 13 and 14 years old? Trolls.

Edited February 23, 2006 by jsolomon (log)

[BarbaraY]

I'm glad this was brought up.  As a chef, I jump through all the hoops the Health Dept. asks me to.  While I feel some are a bit excessive (mostly when it comes to build out, less so for daily procedures), I feel that they're pretty much just good practice.  It always irritates me that the public at large tends to associate food poisoning with restaurants.  if they come down with something, it's always, "Could it be the curry I had the other night at ..."  Perish the thought that they could have gotten it by eating leftovers from a picnic that sat out 6 hours, got put away in the overcrowded fridge, on the same shelf that had thawing chicken the day before, then got snacked on the next day.

I have been having the same rant for years. If people have eaten out they blame the restaurant but if it's their own cooking, why they have stomach flu. Yeah!

[Darcie B]

Usually the food is so bad at potlucks that I have no worries about the safety because I'm *not* going to eat it! That being said, I went to a potluck dinner Tuesday evening for the Master Gardener's club and felt no qualms about eating the homemade lasagne and baked beans that were not very hot. I avoided the cold KFC, pizza and chicken thumbs but not due to sanitary concerns.

But then again I have been known to eat leftover pizza that had been sitting out for more than one day (haven't been sick from it yet). The only two times I have had food poisoning have been from restaurants ...although one was my fault for putting the burger into the glove box for several hours.

I have made myself sick many times but it was liquids that done me in...

[hannnah]

Wate.com is trolling.  They just want a sensational story on a slow day.  Let's call a spade a spade.

Edit to add: am I the only one who noticed that their examples of food poisoning are 13 and 14 years old?  Trolls.

←

They're not trolling, exactly - they're pandering for ratings because it's February sweeps. Every other news outfit is doing the same thing at the moment. (An SNL parody of Fox News promos comes to mind. "Nine area schoolchildren are molested to death while their teachers buy drugs from your dentist! HAAAAARGH! Toxic mold!")

That being said, WATE does run the health department reports as a nightly feature (which is fascinating, in a train-wreck kind of way, because they go into graphic detail as to why places failed), so this story doesn't totally come out of left field for them. To their credit, they do feature the places that got the highest scores as well as the failures.

[Kouign Aman]

I pretty much only worry about things like macaroni salad and deviled eggs... things highly probable to contain mayonnaise. If the eggs look a little 'crusty', I avoid, as that suggests they've been a roomtemp a considerable while. Otherwise, I gamble because I really like deviled eggs. And on one memorable occasion in Florida, I lost the gamble. Ugh!

[chow guy]

Church potlucks are a reasonable barometer of how a group views their food hygiene, and while I wouldn't argue that perhaps a church ought to nominate a food safety officer for assisting with potlucks, I don't think that a church potluck is necessarily any more dangerous than a picnic or a barbecue.

Wate.com is trolling.  They just want a sensational story on a slow day.  Let's call a spade a spade.

Edit to add: am I the only one who noticed that their examples of food poisoning are 13 and 14 years old?  Trolls.

←

Truly trolling. So often, when the media is not instilling fear, they're instilling loathing ("I'm too fat, stupid, ugly or poor to be worthy").

I ran a senior citizen lunch program and weekly pot luck at a church in NYC years ago and we were inspected by the health department, like clockwork.

[snowangel]

I pretty much only worry about things like macaroni salad and deviled eggs... things highly probable to contain mayonnaise. If the eggs look a little 'crusty', I avoid, as that suggests they've been a roomtemp a considerable while. Otherwise,  I gamble because I really like deviled eggs. And on one memorable occasion in Florida, I lost the gamble. Ugh!

←

Actually, it is usually not the mayo that is the problem. Purchased mayo is full of preservatives. It is more likely the other ingredients. Potato salad is especially suspect -- all that sugar and starch in potatos is a breeding ground for all sorts of nasty stuff.

[dawnie2u]

I pretty much only worry about things like macaroni salad and deviled eggs... things highly probable to contain mayonnaise. If the eggs look a little 'crusty', I avoid, as that suggests they've been a roomtemp a considerable while. Otherwise,  I gamble because I really like deviled eggs. And on one memorable occasion in Florida, I lost the gamble. Ugh!

←

Actually, it is usually not the mayo that is the problem. Purchased mayo is full of preservatives. It is more likely the other ingredients. Potato salad is especially suspect -- all that sugar and starch in potatos is a breeding ground for all sorts of nasty stuff.

←

Commercial mayonnaise such as Hellman's is actually a high acid food. The Health Department doesn't even check the temperature of commercial mayonnaise in supermarket kitchens anymore because it is shelf-stable. You can keep a jar of Hellman's in your cupboard. The quality will degrade more quickly than if you keep it refrigerated. It was the homemade mayo that gave mayonnaise it's bad reputation. It is the low acid foods in mayo-type salads and such that may be a problem if not kept at the correct holding temperature. Here is a link for more info: http://www.dressings-sauces.org/foodsafety_picnic.html

[stephenc]

whaever just eat it.

mayonaisse holds up to the longest of days.

[eJulia]

I am so frustrated by all this "raw chicken" paranoia.... who of us over the age of 35 grew up with separate cutting boards for poultry and constant handwashing? Did any one of us get sick from mom's chicken helper dishes?

If I was a restaurant owner, I may be more careful, but as a home cook, enough is enough. I practice hygenic cooking practices, and believe that that protects myself and my guests.

I dare you to eat my cooking and claim illness!

[Taboni]

I am so frustrated by all this "raw chicken" paranoia....  who of us over the age of 35 grew up with separate cutting boards for poultry and constant handwashing?  Did any one of us get sick from mom's chicken helper dishes?

If I was a restaurant owner, I may be more careful, but as a home cook, enough is enough. I practice hygenic cooking practices, and believe that that protects myself and my guests.

I dare you to eat my cooking and claim illness!

←

I'm with you. Sure I wash my hands the knives and the cutting board after preparing chicken but after reading some people's practices regarding food safety at home I can be sure that they would never want to eat food coming out of my kitchen! I use the same board (end grain maple) for all meats and vegetables. I don't use a bleach/water spray, just hot water and soap and dry it with a paper towel. I have never nor has anyone ever been sick from eating my cooking (not that I know of anyway).

My only rule for eating leftovers is the smell. If it smells iffy, don't eat it. This applies to almost anything with a sell by date on it as well. I learned this from my father who will eat just about anything coming out of the fridge no matter how long it has been there. 88 years old and going strong. People are too soft these days.

[mangosteen]

I feel like we, as North Americans, are overly careful/paranoid about food safety. Antibacterial handsoap was first and now we have antibacterial counterwipes?! There are studies linking children's lack of exposure to bacteria/viruses to later development of allergies and asthma. (Hygiene Hypothesis)

When I first stayed at my mother-in-law's house in France I was horrified. She would cook chicken legs one night, leave them out in the pan and then reheat them for lunch the next day. The wood cutting board stays on the counter and is used for cutting bread, cheese, raw meat, etc. I think I'm the only one who'se ever cleaned it with bleach. Regardless, she entertains often, her employees eat here everyday and no-one has gotten sick, including me, in the three years that I've been here. There are lots of other examples of ways in which the French (I am generalizing) are much less rigorous in food preparation.

I don't know the real probabilities of food poisoning, but I can't believe they are as high as many nutritionists and food safety experts lead us to believe. Sometimes I think we like to scare ourselves, and we have too much unfiltered information. I had a Microbiology professor who could not meat after he started his studies. Are there any published statistics on food poisoning cases per annum in various countries?

Personally, I try to be logical and rely my knowledge and experience and I've probably gotten more lax since living in France. I will smell milk rather than throwing it out the day after it's expiration date. I forgot to but my chicken stock in the fridge the other night and after some agonizing I decided that there were probably very few bacteria left (ok possibly some heat-resistant spores hence the worry) after 5 hours of boiling, and that I would just boil it again and put it in the fridge.

[Patrick S]

I don't know the real probabilities of food poisoning, but I can't believe they are as high as many nutritionists and food safety experts lead us to believe. Sometimes I think we like to scare ourselves, and we have too much unfiltered information. I had a Microbiology professor who could not meat after he started his studies.  Are there any published statistics on food poisoning cases per annum in various countries?

←

I can't address the rest of the world, but according to the CDC, foodbourne illness results in 325,000 hospitalizations and 5,000 deaths per year in the US. Link The actual number of cases of foodbourne illness would have to be much higher, since the vast majority of foodbourne illnesses present as short-lived episodes of GI symptoms that do not require hospitalization.

Edited February 24, 2006 by Patrick S (log)

[mrsadm]

I am so frustrated by all this "raw chicken" paranoia....  who of us over the age of 35 grew up with separate cutting boards for poultry and constant handwashing?  Did any one of us get sick from mom's chicken helper dishes?

If I was a restaurant owner, I may be more careful, but as a home cook, enough is enough. I practice hygenic cooking practices, and believe that that protects myself and my guests.

I dare you to eat my cooking and claim illness!

←

Funny! That reminds me of a TV episode with Julia Child and Jacques Pepin - she would wash the chicken and wash the board, and Jacques thought that was totally unnecessary because the chicken would be cooked and thus the bacteria would be gone.

And speaking of "anti-bacterial" soaps.... soap is by nature anti-bacterial! Just marketing BS I think. I worked in a university lab for a while looking at all sorts of nasty creatures under the microscope and soap with hot water would kill all them little buggers...

[Patrick S]

And speaking of "anti-bacterial" soaps.... soap is by nature anti-bacterial!  Just marketing BS I think.  I worked in a university lab for a while looking at all sorts of nasty creatures under the microscope and soap with hot water would kill all them little buggers...

←

And whether it kills all the microbes or just removes them, plain soap appears to be just as good at disinfecting your hands -- there was actually a study comparing the level of microbes on people's hands using triclosan (antibacterial) soap versus regular soap, and there was no difference.

[emilyr]

I don't think I can get behind the idea that church kitchens are never checked. Our local health inspector makes churches go through an inspection process just like restaurants. I was in charge of a church breakfast a few months ago and we had to get permission to serve food that day and then a HI came by the next day to make sure the clean up was adequate. If anything, our local Health Department is harder on churches and other organizations than restaurants, checking them almost every time an event is held, plus a once or twice a year "surprise" inspection.

Even if food is prepared at home, most of the chruch ladies around here are really good about putting warm foods in the warming pans and keeping salads and the like cool long enough or put away soon enough.

I don't think I even know anyone who's gotten food poisoning from a potluck of any sort.

[Lady T]

The church I attend (same church as the one where I sing) in Evanston, IL was forced to upgrade its kitchen to commercial standards after a caterer made her headquarters there; the City came down like a hammer in regard to licensing, and therefore now the kitchen is gleaming stainless steel, with two industrial-grade high-temp dishwashers and two immaculate refrigerator/freezers. You can eat off the floors if the damn-near-sterile china and flatware doesn't suit you.

As a result, I'd eat anything produced by the Kitchen Guild at our church. I've never had a problem with anything of a pot-luck nature that was supervised by Kitchen Guild members, not even the room-temperature dip/chip offerings or the chili competition at the most recent Super Bowl party in the church basement.

[Kouign Aman]

Thanks for the mayo update.

[handmc]

In PA the health department inspects the Kitchen and tests the water once a year. If the church is not selling food to persons outside the church no food handler is necessary. For church dinners where non church members come and dine we have to have a serv safe certified food manager, we have three including myself and are very serious about proper practices, hand washing, temps, etc. We make about 12,000.00 in that kitchen each year which allows us to do a lot of fun things and have a great time doing it.

There is no extra effort to cooking clean, and when I explain why we do it none of the helpers have a problem following the rules. We have loud music, bandanas, custom aprons and a great time. We have also had a number of people join the church who started coming just to help with the dinners.

[jsolomon]

And whether it kills all the microbes or just removes them, plain soap appears to be just as good at disinfecting your hands -- there was actually a study comparing the level of microbes on people's hands using triclosan (antibacterial) soap versus regular soap, and there was no difference.

←

Actually, the study did find a difference, but it was terribly small. Something on the order of 99.99% killed by soap vs 99.995% killed by antibacterial soap (soap with triclosan, others weren't tested, to my knowledge).

So, one kills essentially twice as many bacteria. But, a bacterium's doubling time is somewhere between 20 minutes and 1 hour, so there is very little practical difference in how germy your hands are at any given moment no matter which you use.

But, there are simple methods that bacteria can gain resistances to triclosan, so environmentally, you are better off by using plain soap and not selecting for resistant strains.

[Patrick S]

And whether it kills all the microbes or just removes them, plain soap appears to be just as good at disinfecting your hands -- there was actually a study comparing the level of microbes on people's hands using triclosan (antibacterial) soap versus regular soap, and there was no difference.

←

Actually, the study did find a difference, but it was terribly small. Something on the order of 99.99% killed by soap vs 99.995% killed by antibacterial soap (soap with triclosan, others weren't tested, to my knowledge).

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Well, a difference of 5/100,000% is what I would call "no difference."

[Patrick S]

Thinking about that a little more -- though I doubt that it matters whether you wash with triclosan soap or regular suds, I could see how that triclosan stuff that you rub on but don't wash off might be superior. Since you don't wash it off, it could stay on your hands and inhibit the buildup of new germs, whereas the hands washed with soap could start accumulating new germs immediately.