Genoise Troubleshooting

[pquinene]

jmacnaughtan - The cream I used in the recipe is in place of melted butter; just another kind of fat. If I can recall correctly, I used 6 whole eggs, 2 egg yolks, 1 cup total of sugar, 1/2 cup of cake flour, 1/2 cup of all-purpose flour, pinch of salt, 2 tsp. vanilla extract and 1/4 cup heavy whipping cream (I apologize for the US measurments).

RWood - I did the same thing with the cream as opposed to the warm butter. I like your idea of a large balloon whisk. I did sift the flour, but it took more than 3 batches. I'll use the whisk the next time I attempt this.

Thanks to you both!

[nanefy]

OK - I am going to go against centuries of advice here.........I make wedding cakes and I only use genoise and used to get frustrated at my batter deflating which always happened as soon as I added the flour and butter and started folding them in - it takes too long to fold both the flour and butter in by hand to the point where they are completely combined.

Anyway, I found the BEST way to avoid deflating my genoise - I DONT fold it in by hand. Basically, I whip the hell out of my sugar and eggs (probably 10 to 15 minutes at high speed) until they are super thick and as airy as I can get them, then I have my flour all sifted and ready to go and my butter melted. I then add some flour to my butter to get a light paste (not too thick, think of garlic puree - it's the best comparison I have). I then turn my mixer to it's lowest setting (with the balloon whisk attachment) and add my flour, then butter, fairly quickly - once added, I let it mix for until it has literally just all disappeared (about 10 seconds) and then switch the machine off. I then take a spatula and just give it a couple of folds to make sure nothing is sitting at the bottom unmixed.......and that's it! It barely deflates at all......it takes all the arm work out of making genoise and it's far better than folding it in by hand. Mixing some of the flour with the butter prevents the butter from sinking straight to the bottom.

Anyway - I hope this helps - I certainly have found this method to be far better than folding by hand.

[Kerry Beal]

OK - I am going to go against centuries of advice here.........I make wedding cakes and I only use genoise and used to get frustrated at my batter deflating which always happened as soon as I added the flour and butter and started folding them in - it takes too long to fold both the flour and butter in by hand to the point where they are completely combined.

Anyway, I found the BEST way to avoid deflating my genoise - I DONT fold it in by hand. Basically, I whip the hell out of my sugar and eggs (probably 10 to 15 minutes at high speed) until they are super thick and as airy as I can get them, then I have my flour all sifted and ready to go and my butter melted. I then add some flour to my butter to get a light paste (not too thick, think of garlic puree - it's the best comparison I have). I then turn my mixer to it's lowest setting (with the balloon whisk attachment) and add my flour, then butter, fairly quickly - once added, I let it mix for until it has literally just all disappeared (about 10 seconds) and then switch the machine off. I then take a spatula and just give it a couple of folds to make sure nothing is sitting at the bottom unmixed.......and that's it! It barely deflates at all......it takes all the arm work out of making genoise and it's far better than folding it in by hand. Mixing some of the flour with the butter prevents the butter from sinking straight to the bottom.

Anyway - I hope this helps - I certainly have found this method to be far better than folding by hand.

At what point are you adding the paste you have made with some of the flour and butter?

[Creola]

It sounds like she added some flour to all her butter, then added this mixture last

[nanefy]

Sorry - I didn't get notified of any responses......I mix some flour with all of my butter, this then gets added right at the very end after the flour. Hope that helps

[TheSugarChef]

Out of curiosity, why are you using all-purpose flour in your genoise? I've always used sifted cake flour. Sifting is important because cake flour tends to clump easily. It sounds as though your egg foam is not stable or the flour is not dispersing evenly and some of it is sinking by the time you fold it all in.

Here is my method:

Warm eggs and sugar just until sugar dissolves. Whip on highest speed until mix is thick and light. Lower speed to medium and whip for ten more minutes. Before you fold in the flour, the foam should be stable enough to hold a ribbon. Sift cake flour and salt onto parchment paper. Fold dry ingredients into egg foam in three additions and temper* butter into mixture.

*Take 1/4 of the batter out of the bowl and fold in the cool but melted butter. Fold this buttered mix back into the egg-flour foam.

[DianaM]

Could anyone please share their (yellow) genoise recipe? I need a reliable formula, I just tried out a Martha Stewart recipe that was a complete flop.

[nanefy]

Out of curiosity, why are you using all-purpose flour in your genoise? I've always used sifted cake flour. Sifting is important because cake flour tends to clump easily. It sounds as though your egg foam is not stable or the flour is not dispersing evenly and some of it is sinking by the time you fold it all in.

We don't have cake flour here in the UK - I sift my flour three times before adding it to my egg mix. Not sure why mines deflates when folding it in, but even if it didn't deflate, using the whisk attachment on the stand mixer is way easier and quicker, especially if like me you make wedding cakes and need to make about 5 batches, one after the other (I seriously need a bigger mixer!).

[piracer]

So i'm bringing this topic back up because I recently made a small batch for a 6" ring and i had a sunken center. Probably was a folding issue.

Anyway, what im wondering is why can't we just sift the flour into the stand mixer and continue beating it on high speed until its all incorporated (adding bit by bit, just like folding). Folding after all, seems to be the biggest issue from what I can tell, so if we just put in some of the flour, mix, more flour, mix, rest of the flour, mix like hell, wouldn't you just be maintaining if not, adding more air into the batter?

[DianaM]

So i'm bringing this topic back up because I recently made a small batch for a 6" ring and i had a sunken center. Probably was a folding issue.

Anyway, what im wondering is why can't we just sift the flour into the stand mixer and continue beating it on high speed until its all incorporated (adding bit by bit, just like folding). Folding after all, seems to be the biggest issue from what I can tell, so if we just put in some of the flour, mix, more flour, mix, rest of the flour, mix like hell, wouldn't you just be maintaining if not, adding more air into the batter?

I'm going to venture the guess that adding flour, then mixing on high speed would effectively "drag" all those flour particles through the foam, thereby popping the tiny bubbles. Like dragging a dry tennis ball through the foam in a bubble bath - would you expect that action to create or to destroy bubbles? This is just a theory.

As far as folding goes, what tool do you use to fold the flour in? In most the recipes I've seen, it is said that folding should be done with a spatula. I prefer to use a balloon whisk to incorporate the flour, and have gotten great results this way.

[LT Wong]

I want to refer you to this Taiwanese video that does put to bed some of the usual advice on a gentle folding of the flour in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DYUwSDCHNPg

My personal method is to use (like DianaM) a whisk to fold in the flour. I whisk the flour rather vigorously at the top and then do a gentle fold of the top batter all the way down. This repeated a couple of times until the flour is used up.

[piracer]

Yeah that would make sense. I was just using a spatula and folding it pretty gently from bottom up - if that makes any sense. Ill try it again in the near future with the balloon whisk and see how that works. I noticed though, that with the spatula that i actually had some unfolded flour into the mixture, perhaps the reason of why i had a sunken center with flour not being incorporated thoroughly.

[Nn, M.D.]

Working on my chocolate genoise recipe and running into an issue with my sponge. For reference, I am using an 8x4" aluminum cake pan. My genoise makes 3-4 layers. I baked my batter at 350˚F for 40 minutes, mostly based on visual cues.

As you can see, the top slice had underdone batter that I was able to remove like a tumor. There's underdone batter in both the top slice and middle slice. However, the periphery of the middle slice, and the entire bottom slice, are overdone and dry. Does anyone have a fix for this? Specifically:

- How to bake the sponge so that the bottom isn't overdone and the center isn't underdone

- Bonus if you can help me get a flat top so that I can salvage a 4th slice from this recipe

 

My recipe:

• 7 eggs (430g)
• 215g granulated sugar
• 43g cocoa powder
• 8g kosher salt
• 86g cornstarch
• 172g pastry flour
• 43g ghee, warmed
• 8g vanilla paste

 

1. Add eggs, sugar, cocoa, and salt to mixer bowl and heat over double boiler while constantly whisking. Heat until hot to the touch, then remove from heat and whisk on high until doubled/tripled in volume. (I wasn't able to reach ribbon stage, probably because of the amount of cocoa, so I will be reducing the amount in the future.)
2. Sift together cornstarch and flour, then fold into batter until nearly combined.
3. Add ½-1 cup batter to the ghee along with vanilla paste. Mix vigorously until combined and smooth. Gently fold this portion back into the whole cake batter.
4. Bake in preheated oven at 350˚ for 40 minutes.

 

[UPDATE]

 

Thank you for your suggestions! They were incredibly helpful, and because of your input, I was able to make a huge breakthrough.

Please ignore the tunneling...I was in a bit of a time crunch and should have been more thorough. My two changes were:

• I mixed my cocoa powder with just enough hot water to make it into a homogenous paste. Once my eggs and sugar were at ribbon stage, I took a portion and folded in my chocolate paste, then poured that mixture back into the batter while it was mixing at low speed. I let the mixer run until the mixture was homogenous, then folded in my dry ingredients and ghee/vanilla like normal.
• Reduced the oven temperature to 325˚F and baked the cake for 50 minutes.

Because of these changes, I got a sponge that was as moist on the top slice as it was on the bottom, however there was no underdone batter. The cake rose nicely and I was able to get 5 layers from i, which exceeded my expectations! Updated recipe below: 

 

My UPDATED recipe:

• 7 eggs (430g)
• 215g granulated sugar
• 43g cocoa powder
• 75g boiling water
• 8g kosher salt
• 86g cornstarch
• 172g pastry flour
• 43g ghee, warmed
• 8g vanilla paste

 

1. Add eggs, sugar, and salt to mixer bowl and heat over double boiler while constantly whisking. Heat until hot to the touch, then remove from heat and whisk on high until the mixture reaches ribbon stage, 5-6 minutes.
2. While the batter is mixing on high speed, dissolve the cocoa powder into boiling water and mix to a smooth paste.
3. Turn the mixer speed down to medium-low. Take ½-1 cup of the batter and fold in the chocolate paste. Gradually add the chocolate batter to the main batter and allow mixture to mix until homogenous.
4. Sift together cornstarch and flour, then fold into batter until nearly combined.
5. Add ½-1 cup batter to the ghee along with vanilla paste. Mix vigorously until combined and smooth. Gently fold this portion back into the whole cake batter.
6. Bake in preheated oven at 325˚ for 50 minutes.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Nn, M.D.
problem solved, new recipe posted (log)

[pastrygirl]

Try dividing the batter between two pans for faster baking and decreasing the bake temp for less doming.

[JeanneCake]

I would be tempted to add the cocoa after the eggs are beaten  -  following Rose Levy Beranbaum's method, take some of the beaten eggs and fold in the cocoa to them, then add this back to the rest of the eggs.  She dissolves the cocoa in some boiling water and uses this mixture instead of just adding dry cocoa.

 

Are you using all purpose flour or cake flour?

[Nn, M.D.]

1 hour ago, JeanneCake said:

I would be tempted to add the cocoa after the eggs are beaten  -  following Rose Levy Beranbaum's method, take some of the beaten eggs and fold in the cocoa to them, then add this back to the rest of the eggs.  She dissolves the cocoa in some boiling water and uses this mixture instead of just adding dry cocoa.

 

Are you using all purpose flour or cake flour?

I'm using pastry flour cut with cornstarch, which is essentially cake flour.

 

Thats a really interesting idea, do you have a link to this specific method? If not, what changes to my recipe would you suggest?

[Nn, M.D.]

6 hours ago, pastrygirl said:

Try dividing the batter between two pans for faster baking and decreasing the bake temp for less doming.

I've been thinking about this one. I may try to do a DIY cake strip and see if that might address the doming issue. If that's not enough, then I'll start messing with the temperature.

[JeanneCake]

I tried to do a google search for her chocolate genoise recipe and came up with this blogger's adaptation.  My copies of The Cake Bible are at the bakery otherwise i would just take pictures of the recipe pages.  Rose's website is www.realbakingwithrose.com if you want to explore.

 

Blogger Chocolate Genoise recipe

[pastrygirl]

Looks great!  Glad that worked out for you.

[CorineMoulton]

On 10/11/2023 at 2:45 AM, Nn, M.D. said:

Working on my chocolate genoise recipe and running into an issue with my sponge. For reference, I am using an 8x4" aluminum cake pan. My genoise makes 3-4 layers. I baked my batter at 350˚F for 40 minutes, mostly based on visual cues.

As you can see, the top slice had underdone batter that I was able to remove like a tumor. There's underdone batter in both the top slice and middle slice. However, the periphery of the middle slice, and the entire bottom slice, are overdone and dry. Does anyone have a fix for this? Specifically:

- How to bake the sponge so that the bottom isn't overdone and the center isn't underdone

- Bonus if you can help me get a flat top so that I can salvage a 4th slice from this recipe

 

My recipe:

• 7 eggs (430g)
• 215g granulated sugar
• 43g cocoa powder
• 8g kosher salt
• 86g cornstarch
• 172g pastry flour
• 43g ghee, warmed
• 8g vanilla paste

 

1. Add eggs, sugar, cocoa, and salt to mixer bowl and heat over double boiler while constantly whisking. Heat until hot to the touch, then remove from heat and whisk on high until doubled/tripled in volume. (I wasn't able to reach ribbon stage, probably because of the amount of cocoa, so I will be reducing the amount in the future.)
2. Sift together cornstarch and flour, then fold into batter until nearly combined.
3. Add ½-1 cup batter to the ghee along with vanilla paste. Mix vigorously until combined and smooth. Gently fold this portion back into the whole cake batter.
4. Bake in preheated oven at 350˚ for 40 minutes.

 

[UPDATE]

 

Thank you for your suggestions! They were incredibly helpful, and because of your input, I was able to make a huge breakthrough.

Please ignore the tunneling...I was in a bit of a time crunch and should have been more thorough. My two changes were:

• I mixed my cocoa powder with just enough hot water to make it into a homogenous paste. Once my eggs and sugar were at ribbon stage, I took a portion and folded in my chocolate paste, then poured that mixture back into the batter while it was mixing at low speed. I let the mixer run until the mixture was homogenous, then folded in my dry ingredients and ghee/vanilla like normal.
• Reduced the oven temperature to 325˚F and baked the cake for 50 minutes.

Because of these changes, I got a sponge that was as moist on the top slice as it was on the bottom, however there was no underdone batter. The cake rose nicely and I was able to get 5 layers from i, which exceeded my expectations! Updated recipe below: 

 

My UPDATED recipe:

• 7 eggs (430g)
• 215g granulated sugar
• 43g cocoa powder
• 75g boiling water
• 8g kosher salt
• 86g cornstarch
• 172g pastry flour
• 43g ghee, warmed
• 8g vanilla paste

 

1. Add eggs, sugar, and salt to mixer bowl and heat over double boiler while constantly whisking. Heat until hot to the touch, then remove from heat and whisk on high until the mixture reaches ribbon stage, 5-6 minutes.
2. While the batter is mixing on high speed, dissolve the cocoa powder into boiling water and mix to a smooth paste.
3. Turn the mixer speed down to medium-low. Take ½-1 cup of the batter and fold in the chocolate paste. Gradually add the chocolate batter to the main batter and allow mixture to mix until homogenous.
4. Sift together cornstarch and flour, then fold into batter until nearly combined.
5. Add ½-1 cup batter to the ghee along with vanilla paste. Mix vigorously until combined and smooth. Gently fold this portion back into the whole cake batter.
6. Bake in preheated oven at 325˚ for 50 minutes. 
    

Thanks for the recipe, I will try it. ❤️

Edit: I tried it and it was so tasty. I will recommend everyone to try it.  It is so yummy.

Edited November 15, 2023 by CorineMoulton (log)

[Yoda]

Hi all 👋 

 

I made my forst genoise today (or at least attempt to).

 

I was following this recipe. Sice I only had a 18x7 cm pan, I increased all the ingredients by factor 1,4.

 

Ingredients:

217 g eggs

123 g sugar (regular, krustal, white)

14 g honey

84 g flour (not cake flour probably)

25 g starch

18 g cocoa powder

38 g butter (melted)

 

I followed the recipe precisely (only my butter was melted and waited at room temperature not at 40-50C like recommended in the video).

 

Firstly, my ribbons while beating egg, sugar and honey mixture were really priminent - is there a thing as overbeating the batter?

 

Secondly, I noticed my oven temp was 160°C (with fan on) instead on 165°C as recommended- this mistake I know i made - is 5°C dofference big enough to cause the genoise to nit rise at the middle?

 

And ine more thing - the very important one - here in Europe, we don't have names for flour as in America and maybe some other countries.

Here we have soft/smooth flour (like manitoba 00) and coarse flour that isn't ground that mich to a powder consistenci, but rather a tiny bit less.

I read that cake flour is supposed to have between 5 and 8 % protein.

 

I was choosing a flour for a long time..in the end I got the coarser flour and chose the one with least protein I could find. It has the folowing characteristics:

 

Fat: 1%

Carbohydrates: 72%

Protein: 9,8%

Fiber: 2,3%

 

Was the flour a bad choice? 

 

Here are some pictures of the genoise:

 

Batter when poured into the vake pan

 

Whilebaking in the oven (first 5 minutes)

 

After 30 min I checked on the genoise (the smell was hinting it was ready) and when i inserted a toothpick in the center it came out clean. So I removed it from the oven after 30 min.

This was the result

 

Here are pictures of sections:

 

Bottom section

Middle section

 

Top section

 

All the layers side by side (bottom left to top right)

 

Btw, the honey is very prominent in smell and taste (a bit too honey-y. I used chesnut honey).

The bottom section was most dense and probably wouldn't break easily (not as spongey). The middle one was very light and not dense at all - it had the most pleasant consistency and structure in my opinion.

 

Plese share your opinions with me - where did I go wrong?

 

 

Edited April 11 by Yoda
Wrote down ingredients amountes used, added images of sections (log)

[gfron1]

Many possible explanations, but if it called for cake flour, that means there is corn starch in with the flour, and so if you didn't replace that, this is a likely outcome. 

[KennethT]

1 hour ago, gfron1 said:

Many possible explanations, but if it called for cake flour, that means there is corn starch in with the flour, and so if you didn't replace that, this is a likely outcome. 

I didn't realize that cake flour had corn starch added....  I don't think my typical cake flour has it...

http://smartlabel.swansdown.com/product/4199979/ingredients?_gl=1*x3hyo*_ga*OTg1NzExODUxLjE3MTI4NTU1ODQ.*_ga_RZ14C79VEE*MTcxMjg1NTU4My4xLjEuMTcxMjg1NTYwNy4zNi4wLjA.

[AAQuesada]

I don't think cake flour has corn starch in it but when you replace it it is typical to replace some of the flour with cornstarch to reduce the protein content 

 

as an example: https://www.thekitchn.com/the-easy-way-to-make-cake-flour-substitute-baking-tips-from-the-kitchn-44521#

[Yoda]

7 minutes ago, AAQuesada said:

I don't think cake flour has corn starch in it but when you replace it it is typical to replace some of the flour with cornstarch to reduce the protein content 

 

as an example: https://www.thekitchn.com/the-easy-way-to-make-cake-flour-substitute-baking-tips-from-the-kitchn-44521#

O my gosh, I didn't even think of trying to find a cake flour substitute (or that it was even possible).

Thank you so much, I'll definitely take a look at the link you've posted!

(Though I'm still not sure whether I should use the smooth or coarse flour as the main flour... I'm thinking I should have gone with the smooth one since the crumb was kind of crunchy here and there - similar texture to a pie)