Should you disclose ingredients?

[Pan]

I think that's totally legitimate because they'd have to agree to those terms in advance.

[Daniel]

Now, would you disclose the ingredients first, or just go ahead and serve it?

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It's all about knowing who you are serving and if you have doubts you are better to ask in my opinion. I would never knowingly serve something that could be offensive to my guests and I would be mortified to learn I had done it inadvertently.

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Agreed..I was on a date once and I ordered rabbit appetizer and deer for an entree.. I was wrong to do this looking back, but i didnt tell my date about the deer.. She was so distraught about eating the rabbit and she then said something like, great whats next deer.. I am going to eat bamby and thumper in the same night.. So i decided not to tell her.. I now realize i should have..

[prasantrin]

Do you go to a restaurant and tell the chef to cook whatever and then happily eat it without any sort of menu?

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Sure. It's called "omakase." Of course, if you're in a restaurant where you can do that, you most likely know you'll be getting some kind of seafood, probably raw.

[Grub]

Do you go to a restaurant and tell the chef to cook whatever and then happily eat it without any sort of menu?

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Sure. It's called "omakase." Of course, if you're in a restaurant where you can do that, you most likely know you'll be getting some kind of seafood, probably raw.

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I assume this is sushi? I've done this in a sushi restaurants I used to visit all the time, and the cook knew my preferences...

No analogy is perfect, so drawing parellels between a restaurant and a home cooked meal doesn't always work -- but in this case, I think it works very well: If I trust a sushi chef (whom I don't really know at all on a personal level, but have just ordered a lot of food from) well enough to serve me whatever he thinks I might like, I think it would make sense to trust a loved one, or a friend to do the same.

[prasantrin]

I assume this is sushi? I've done this in a sushi restaurants I used to visit all the time, and the cook knew my preferences...

In restaurants, "omakase" is most often used at sushi places. The word, itself, doesn't have anything directly to do with sushi, though. It means something like, "I entrust in you". I've used the word (perhaps inappropriately) when getting my make-up done here in Japan.

No analogy is perfect, so drawing parellels between a restaurant and a home cooked meal doesn't always work -- but in this case, I think it works very well: If I trust a sushi chef (whom I don't really know at all on a personal level, but have just ordered a lot of food from) well enough to serve me whatever he thinks I might like, I think it would make sense to trust a loved one, or a friend to do the same.

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Agreed.

[Ninjai Fanatic]

for kids- don't tell, but for teeners/adults i think it's just proper to tell them.

[zilla369]

Last night I served fresh farmer's market strawberries with a premium vanilla ice cream, topped with a sweet balsamic reduction (sweetened with brown sugar).

Now, I know that that combination is not that "weird" to most of us eGulleteers; however, two of my guests are not that adventurous, food-wise...so I found myself on the horns of a mini-dilemma!

I settled for saying (as I served it): "Boys, that ain't chocolate syrup on your ice cream and strawberries."

Them: "Well, what is it?"

Me: "It's a brown sugar reduction."

Them: "Mmmm. Yummy. What exactly is a 'reduction'?"

Me: "That's anything that's simmered gently to evaporate the water, thereby concentrating the flavor."

Them: "It's really good. It's tart! That's not just brown sugar!"

Me: "Uh, yeah. If you must know, it's brown sugar and balsamic vinegar."

Them: "It's awesome! I never would have tried it if you'd told me it was vinegar on my ice cream!"

So begins their awakening.

[Mabelline]

Know your guest. We eat a lot of game, but I won't serve rabbit inside anymore out of respect to Skipper, who's at my feet right now. I feel he would recognise the scent, and I'm not into terrifying one of my little brothers.

My SIL refuses to cook gamemeat (for no reason I can detect, except p'haps some poorly prepared or cooked venison). My wonderful BIL loves game. We got a buck that was such exceptional meat, I told Bruce that Tom absolutely had to have some. So, I called him, told him I was sending him some great stuff, and told him to cook it out on the grill. Tell SIL to stay away.

The next day, she calls me and said she's never had such good grilled meat before.Go figure.

The horsething is tricky to me though. I've eaten it, but won't go across the street to buy it. But if my kids were starving and one of ours died, it'd be hung and strung.

[food mom]

What? Cat with thyme? Much to overwhelming - try lovage (imparts a nice celery flavour) with sharp chillies....

I've lived in Munich since 1991, and at the Viktualienmarkt there is actually a store that deals solely in horsemeat. One can even go to the slaughterhouse on Fridays and pick out a horse to be slaughtered. And this in a society which reveres horses for their work capacity (never have seen a beer truck pulled by cows)....

still, we know from whence our food originates. Not so in America, often, and the more distanced one is from the source, the more easier it is to substitute sub-standard or downright bad things.

Does anyone here hunt? Or have fowl? Or fish? There certainly seems to be a difference between what swims in the fishbowl by the lamp and what one prepares for dinner in the kitchen... but both are fish. Someone has to prepare it. But fish have not yet reached "Bambi" status, though Nemo tried. I pray that there will not be a Disney trend that personifies pigs, chickens and cows, for then our future generations will be left choosing from the stranger side of the supermarket.

Much of what we eat is in our head (even before it reaches the nether parts). Witness the chain restaurants - one truly does not know what is in these prepared dishes. "Protein" encompasses a great deal.

And do we really think that we only slaughter animals for the "choice" parts, and throw the rest away?

If someone resists a dish for religious or ethical reasons, fine. It is a courtesy to one's guests/diners to respect their wishes. Remember, these are people who have not ingested these substances for extended periods of time, if ever, so not disclosing what is being served will often have an ill after-effect (I personally do not care for beef, and so choose not to eat it. Eating a ragout with beef does have lingering effects on my digestive system, thus, I can tell the next day what I've eaten. I'm sure that others have the same or similar reactions). Yet, I doubt if one would choose "controversial" dinner items for newcomers. If one has a chance to dine with an adventurous cook, be prepared - this is what adventure is all about.

As for mom's being adventurous - how else would we learn?!

[little ms foodie]

Am I the only one who finds it strange that food would not be presented with a "this is fricasse of horse...." or whatever?? I have never served a meal at my house without letting everyone know what was on their plate, in the dish, in the appetizers, etc. I can't image people sitting at my table, eating dinner and not having told them what I made. weird!

As for the actual question at hand, I make a point to check in with people before I cook for them, just yesterday I asked a friend if her boyfriend was ok with veal.

[rockhopper]

If I know about allergies beforehand I never tell people that I put anchovies in anything from my caesar style salad (the original had none but mine does hence the "style" qualifier) to a puttanesca sauce. Most merkins would never eat anything with anchovies.

Sort of like the irrational aversion to opera.

I've actually had this conversation:

I hate Opera.

Oh, which one?

All of them.

Wow. I've been listenting to Opera for 30 years and I haven't gotten around to all of them yet!

[Milagai]

  I pray that there will not be a Disney trend that personifies pigs, chickens and cows, for then our future generations will be left choosing from the stranger side of the supermarket.

Much of what we eat is in our head (even before it reaches the nether parts).

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i agree with everything you said, esp the bit about

why eat only some parts and throw the others away......

but, re the quote above, it's already been done:

Babe (pigs) Chicken Run (chickens) and

Animal House (the whole barnyard).

Lots of kids around here really didn't know where

their mcnuggets came from before these movies, and

some have stopped eating meat, leaving their

families to shop the stranger side of the supermarket -

the beans, tofu, veggie side

milagai

[Pan]

[...]but, re the quote above, it's already been done:

Babe (pigs) Chicken Run (chickens) and

Animal House (the whole barnyard).[...]

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And before them all (?) was Charlotte's Web, which is about a pig (Wilbur) and a spider (Charlotte). I really enjoyed the book when I was a child, and it was made into a movie some time ago.

[munchymom]

Charlotte's Web affected me so strongly, I've never eaten a spider since I read it!

[prasantrin]

[

but, re the quote above, it's already been done:

Babe (pigs) Chicken Run (chickens) and

Animal House (the whole barnyard).

←

I have a cousin who became a vegetarian because of the movie Chicken Run. If she had been 10, I'd understand. But she was in her early 20's...

Five years later, she is, again, a confirmed meat-eater

[abadoozy]

My mother used to sneak venison into things like chili and other casseroles. Nowadays I love venison, but back then my Dad used to butcher the deer in the kitchen, and it sickened me.

I get her back now that I'm an adult by putting anchovies in stuff that I make and serve to her.

As far as the OP, sure, I'll occasionally serve things and try to avoid telling people about the bits that they may like as long as the bits are small (anchovies in marinara, etc.) I'd never go as far as lying about something big ("No! That's not lamb, it's just really tender, gamey beef!") And if directly asked, I'll tell 'em what I'm serving.

[browniebaker]

Disclosure just is not an issue at my table. I always say what a dish is when it comes to the table. It seems natural to do so. If the main ingredient is horse, everyone is going to know, right then and there.

I wonder whether some people find it amusing to serve exotic ingredients to unaware companions at table, perhaps to test how perceptive or sophisticated others' palates are. That's catty and immature. Anyone who did that would not stay a friend (or spouse) of mine for long.

[aliwaks]

ok I would freak the f--k out if someone served me horse without telling me.

When I was in France I asked how they made thier frites for fear that they would have been fried in horsefat Supposedly this makes for the best frites ever..but I care not.

Of course my French is so bad that they may have thought I was asking if the frites had been fried in hair fat.

Not disclosing ingredients that are out of the ordinary is just hubris, just because one cooks well and is perhaps more adventurous in thier choice of foodstuffs is no reason to force other people to feel the same way about certain items.

Alot of people, myself included have aversions to certain types of meat and should have the freedom of choice to eat or not eat them. Irrational as it may be I have no problem with lamb but don't eat rabbit or goat, serve me horse, dog, snake or any type of insect without telling me and our relationahip will end right then and there. Sauteed cat may be the most wonderful dish ever created but I'm not gonna eat it, nor should I be tricked into it.

If someone doesn't like something why would you make them eat it, do you know so much better than they what they enjoy?

Can't quite figure out why anyone would care for someone enough to cook for them but not enough to respect thier boundaries.

[ingridsf]

About seven eighths through the meal, my husband suddenly asked what the meat was we were eating. When I told him, he refused to eat the rest, and accused me of being cruel. Cruel to him, that is, for not having told him what I was serving him.

Now, I normally never say in advance what it is I'm dishing up, whether it's taro, banana flower or, in this case, horse. And it's never actually been an issue before even though I am (ahem) slightly wont to experiment.

So, should you warn people about to eat your food that the ingredients might be different from what they're used to? Wouldn't this frighten off the easily intimidated before they've even tasted it so that they will never experience the joyous taste of whatever it is you're serving?

(It goes without saying that I am not advocating keeping ingredients secret when cooking for people with food restrictions, be these restrictions religious, allergy-related, or of any other type.)

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I don't think anzu was obligated to disclose in her particular situation. She says she doesn't normally do that; that practice may not appeal to others but her husband was a willing eater in past mystery meals. Don't see where he should be getting all huffy now.

As for whether disclosing should be standard practice, yes. Most people prefer familarity on the plate and some are genuinely disturbed by new foods. (Disturbances, mind you, that run the gamut from those based on deeply held principles, to digestive trouble, to allergies, to preferences presented as allergies, to medical restrictions, to sensible weight-loss diets, to fad diets, and on and on.)

The relationship between cook and diner is based on trust, courtesy and appreciation, not to mention gratitude to whatever's on the plate. Maybe I'm hyper-sensitive, but the last few years of trying to cook for friends has left me feeling like a short-order cook, not a host. I feel like I hold up my end by knowing allergies, medical conditions, diets. None of my friends has a restriction based on religion so that's not a factor. But I'll come out with it: I'd like folks to park their preferences at the door and be stringent about their use of the word, "allergy." Take butter. Even if you ordinarily use EVOO "because it's healthier," don't make an "Ewww" face when I beat the butter into the risotto. If you're into turkey bacon "because pork is really greasy," please refrain from the request to use that rather than pancetta in the carbonara. My big reward for honest disclosure is a mangled recipe or hurt feelings.

There's so much more discussion of the cook's responsibility to diners than the diner's behavior. I think it goes deeper than manners, as important as manners are. I don't think many diners have much awareness that they can contribute to a meal by letting their guards down, and accepting what is offered.

To me, the most amazing thing about this question is that a family exists where a spirit of real culinary risk-taking exists. I'm still trying to introduce dark-meat chicken, pork sausage, asparagus, and anchovies. And salt. Oh my god, and then there are the "high-sugar" vegetables like carrots....

JAZ wrote an article in TDG called, "The Compulsive Cook: Gracious Guests, Painfully simple guidelines for good guest behavior." http://www.egullet.org/tdg.cgi?pg=ARTICLE-jazguesttactics This thread reminded me of this interesting piece and the subsequent discussion.

Edited June 26, 2005 by ingridsf (log)

[misstenacity]

In a nutshell: NO.

If you are a dinner guest or a restaurant patron, let your allergies be known upfront.

If you are a dinner party host, asking if any guests have allergies is a kind thing to do. If you are a restauranteur, the responsibility lies solely with the diner.

Andrea

http://tenacity.net

[Milt]

I am drawn to unusual ingredients when I cook. A cake made from butternut squash is infinitely more appealing to me than one made with wheat flour only. My family recognizes this, and it generally causes my daughter to do DiGiorno's when I cook. In defference to her, I always leave the cookbook open so that she (or anyone else who is interested) may look and see exactly what ingredients are going into what I am preparing. I don't often mention exactly what I am cooking. Dinner is served, and those who want to know will receive a direct and straight answer if they choose to inquire. When we had a neighborhood cookout on Memorial Day, I brought ground buffalo (bison) for our burgers. My wife didn't inquire about the meat until I assured her that eating this burger rare would cause her no problems. She then ate and enjoyed her buffalo burger. She similarly learned during the meal that the picadillo had been made with ostrich rather than beef. I thought the picadillo was a bit dry and commented that it must be the meat - which caused her to ask what kind of meat we were eating. Then she became concerned that our guest might not have wanted to try ostrich.

I would not knowingly prepare something that I felt would be offensive to those dining. When I am visiting family in New Jersey, I occasionally will prepare a meal. When I do, I use no pork and the beef is kosher or halal. It doesn't matter to me, but it is extremely important to the in-laws. When they visit here, the same concerns dictate our food preparation.

[bleudauvergne]

Sometimes its hard to tell what would be offensive to our guests. I try not to scare people. But sometimes you just get into trouble when you have guests that have problems with specific meats. Veal, rabbit, venison, horse, donkey, goat, even duck gets people upset. You never know what's going to freak out a teenager, it changes from day to day. In the last couple of months I've been trying to understand the appeal of horse here in France. After trying it a couple of times, and trying smoked corsican donkey sausage, I have come to love it. I serve it to some people but if there's a risk, I try to keep it out of sight.

On the same topic, we had a Russian guest for dinner a couple of weeks ago, and for aperetif, we served slices of smoked magret de canard. So we said - this is duck. He raised his eyebrows, and he seemed a bit disturbed by it, and said - Like Korea? We were at a loss, trying to figure out what he was talking about. He said - Well, there's a first time for everything, and ate some. Then he said, out of the blue - I have pet dog at home. I imagined ducks swimming in the bathtub, but then suddenly I realized he thought we said it was dog. I felt so sorry, and we quickly cleared that up with much laughter. But at the same time, I developed a certain respect for the guy because although it clearly was not something he'd normally eat, he had the grace to give it a try because it was bring served to him.

Edited to add: In answer to the original question, should you disclose ingredients? Yes, of course. But there are ways to do it that are more gentle than "you just ate dried donkey sausage". You might say, "In Corsica, they have a tradition of making sausage from the meat of work animals. This smoked sausage is made from Donkey. It has a peppery taste. Would you like to try some?"

Edited July 5, 2005 by bleudauvergne (log)

[Misa]

It depends on what the item in question is.

When I invite people over, I ask if they have any food allergies or other dietary restrictions. Then, I ask if there's anything that they really don't like. If there's something they do not like, I won't serve it to them, though I may serve it to other people if I'm having a large group over, but I always tell the person first, letting them know that I'm serving several things, and I don't expect them to eat the item they don't like, but I wanted to let them know it contained the ingredient. I let vegetarians know if I'll be serving meat.

After that, I pretty much make whatever I want.

However, I do take the person into account. My sisters, for example, would be horrified if I served them rabbit or horse because I'm certain that they'd think it was cruel, even though none of them has ever said that to me. They wouldn't, however, think to say "I don't like horse."

But, if it's just a weird combination, I might tell the person what it was afterward. No harm done there. I'd probably even go so far as to say if I think they'll like it, but would object to the food if I told them ahead of time, I'd tell them afterward.

[bleachboy]

It's true, what bleu said. I was once sharing duck recipes with a friend at a dinner party, and a girl standing next to me exclaimed, horrified, "You eat duck?! Like, QUACK QUACK duck!??!?"

I mean, what're you going to say? I cook a lot with stuff like calf's feet, lard, ox tails, pork neck bones.. I usually just don't tell my guests what it is. If they press the issue, I'll tell, or just describe it as "beef" or "pork" or whatnot.