Food Pronunciation Guide for the Dim-witted

[stephenc]

Hey guys!

In mandarin chinese, Chow mein is actually pronounced like:

Tsao mien, with a low flat tone on the first word, and a downward accented tone on the second.

But everyone pronounces chinese wrong. It doesn't bother me at all.

Edited May 25, 2005 by stephenc (log)

[touaregsand]

I just noticed this. The 't' is pronounced in both moet and jouet. The accent that I'm not typing in here is le tréma.

This is confirmed by the native speaker standing next to me. Unless Pierre Jouet has an idiosyncratic reason for breaking a rule of pronunciation.

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Oh, those funny French guys...

... how do you say "Les Halles" again???

Cheers,

- CSR

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That one gets me too.

Confirmed by someone who works for the company that hubby met at a party the other night. Jouet doesn't play jokes with the French language. The 't' is pronounced.

[MaxH]

folks, the correct pronunciation is BAHSmati (for basmati rice)

NOT NOT NOT basMAATi. / there are solid linguistic reasons (based on consistent spelling) why the former is right the latter a tooth-grinding mispronunciation...

Good point. That's a perennial issue in the US, since long before this Web site. Maybe it belongs in a Frequently Asked Pronunciations (FAP) list?

Along with others like Tamari (subject of an international and learned thread on another site at one point). Etc etc.

(By the way, Austrians are commenting on the Grüner Veltliner issue as I write this, since I launched a query. I'll summarize results here.)

[Chris Amirault]

I think that the "hipness" of "pasta fazool," "gabagool," "moozadell," "manicott," and so on can be traced directly to the cuisine described in this particular cookbook, involving a certain fictional northern NJ family of great notoriety.

Meanwhile, if you tried to order some "gabagool" at Tony's Colonial on Atwells Ave here in Providence, they'd look at you like the knucklehead you are.

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maybe it (sopranos book, show) helped spread the word, but 3 generations of my italian-american family have been using those pronunciations (though yes, never thinking it is "hip"). we're from baltimore, northern jersey, and ny. i don't think anyone in my family who uses those words thinks they are speaknig italian. i sure don't. but it's part of my heritage. it's part of the way we speak. and i'm quite proud of my heritage. also, i don't think we're knuckleheads.

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Tommy, I certainly didn't want to imply, nor do I believe, that your family are knuckleheads!

The thread above was talking specifically about people who are using these food terms to be cool, not because the terms or the food are part of their linguistic heritage. I would never imply or state that people who use those terms as part of their heritage are knuckleheads.

However, I do think that non-Italian Sopranos fans who think that this is the way that all "Italians" talk about food -- who would go to an expensive, touristy shop here in Providence and try to impress the locals with language they heard on HBO -- are indeed knuckleheads. It was that sort of person at whom I was poking fun.

Sorry not to be clearer!

[MaxH]

Thanks to C_Ruark and to various Austrians, including a principal Vienna food-wine journalist who answered my query on this, here is a correction to what I posted earlier: usual stress is on second syllable of "Veltliner" in Grüner Veltliner. It was also mentioned that the stress is mild. (Either I remembered wrong, not for the first time, or I've heard unusual speakers of this wine name, when in Austria.)

[Megan Blocker]

A classic ploy for getting around not knowing the gender of something: can't remember where it's un biere or une biere? No problem, just order deux bieres.

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In Portuguese, though, you have to order three.

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Is this because I need to be extra drunk?

Or because you still have to know the gender of said item to correctly ask for two of them?

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Because you don't need to know the gender to order multiples of anything. Only "un" and "une" have a gender attached to them.

For the record, it's "la biere" - biere is feminine. As in, la grande biere. Deux kilos.

[therese]

Because you don't need to know the gender to order multiples of anything.  Only "un" and "une" have a gender attached to them.

For the record, it's "la biere" - biere is feminine.  As in, la grande biere.  Deux kilos.

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As The Hersch explains upthread you apparently do need to know the gender of the item in Portuguese if you're ordering one or two of them:

The latter, although I like both answers. But yes, Portuguese inflects two-zies for gender: duas cervejas, dois cafes.

This is not the case for the Romance languages I speak (French and Italian), but there may be other instances other than Portuguese in which it is the case.

[tryska]

Il y a veritablement quelques  douzaines des termes francais qu'on sacrifie' au nom de "chic".

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I couldn't agree more.

[tryska]

maybe this is the right thread for me to make the following plea:

folks, the correct pronunciation is BAHSmati (for basmati rice)

NOT NOT NOT basMAATi.

it's not just a cute regional variation to say it differently,

there are solid linguistic reasons (based on consistent spelling)

why the former is right the latter a tooth-grinding mispronunciation...

(now off my soapbox)

milagai

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i'm afraid you may have to explain the t as "th" and d as "dh" now that you've gotten started milagai.

and finally yes chai is pronounced like fly.

[Behemoth]

Thanks to C_Ruark and to various Austrians, including a principal Vienna food-wine journalist who answered my query on this, here is a correction to what I posted earlier: usual stress is on second syllable of "Veltliner" in Grüner Veltliner.  It was also mentioned that the stress is mild.  (Either I remembered wrong, not for the first time, or I've heard unusual speakers of this wine name, when in Austria.)

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Oof, do we really want to be pronouncing German like the Austrians? (I kid.)

But this brings up a point. If I (an obvious yankee) went south and asked for some "grey-uhts" I would probably get my ass kicked. I think stressing the first syllable in Veltliner is consistent with high German and if that is what you speak, you are better off pronouncing it that way.

I won't even get into the regular mangling of the Arabic language...

[therese]

But this brings up a point. If I (an obvious yankee) went south and asked for some "grey-uhts" I would probably get my ass kicked.

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Heh. No, probably not. And nobody'd spit in your grits either. You'd just just get that look that we reserve for the dim-witted and obviously inebriated.

Southern accents vary quite a bit, and many places in the southeast don't have much of one. Both of my children have grown up in Georgia (Atlanta) but neither has a discernibly southern accent. Which might be due to the fact that their parents aren't from the south, except that we are: father from San Antonio, mother from southwest Virginia.

My kids' fake southern accents are every bit as crappy as Behemoth's is likely to be.

[Smithy]

I won't even get into the regular mangling of the Arabic language...

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For us non-native speakers, it's an easy one to mangle. I've been amazed at people mangling "hummus", of all things - it seemed so easy, and why anyone would pronounce it "HYOOMus" or "HOOmus" was beyond me. Recently I realized that I've been mangling the initial H and final S sounds, so I probably don't sound much better.

[tryska]

seems like we need to discuss gyros - or:

Geeh-rows

Guy-rows

Ghy-rows

Yeer-ows

[Smithy]

seems like we need to discuss gyros - or:

Geeh-rows

Guy-rows

Ghy-rows

Yeer-ows

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I'd like to know that one for sure! Is it Yeer-ows?

[touaregsand]

seems like we need to discuss gyros - or:

Geeh-rows

Guy-rows

Ghy-rows

Yeer-ows

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I'd like to know that one for sure! Is it Yeer-ows?

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It was covered already. Busboy gave the definitive answer which I cannot remember for the life of me.

[MaxH]

seems like we need to discuss gyros ...

It was covered already. Busboy gave the definitive answer which I cannot remember for the life of me.

Sounds like another for the Frequently Asked Pronunciations list.

[MaxH]

... usual stress is on second syllable of "Veltliner" in Grüner Veltliner.

Which comes from the Valtellina, by the way. That may (another local expert suggested, now from Italy) explain the stress in Veltliner.

Oof, do we really want to be pronouncing German like the Austrians? (I kid.)

Don't start, Behemoth! (For one thing it's an Austrian word, not a German.)

(Gringos, yankees especially, seem to love mangling English,* a tongue of distant origin; why shouldn't they be just as happy mispronouncing other languages?)

*(HarASSment. PaTINa. I've even heard rumors of people stressing "banal" on the first syllable, though I haven't ever heard it spoken out. It's not a very common word anyway today; why on earth not either leave it alone, or look it up?)

[Abra]

Here's one that's food-related, albeit not food per se.

If someone says "I'll ask the commis to do it", is it pronounced in French (com-mee) or like commiss?

And as a note on Americanization, I was at a very nice restaurant in Seattle recently where the server presented me with a bleu de Gex, except that he pronounced the g like the g in gecko. I quietly said Zhex to him, and he corrected me. I said the equivalent of "dude, I've been to Gex, and that's how they say it", but he assured me that he'd been instructed to say it with the glottal g, whatever you call that g.

[therese]

...I was at a very nice restaurant in Seattle recently where the server presented me with a bleu de Gex, except that he pronounced the g like the g in gecko.  I quietly said Zhex to him, and he corrected me.  I said the equivalent of "dude, I've been to Gex, and that's how they say it", but he assured me that he'd been instructed to say it with the glottal g, whatever you call that g.

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I've not been to Gex, and I've no clear idea of where it is, but I love the idea of saying to somebody, "Dude, I've been to Gex."

The server/customer thing can get pretty dicey. I don't generally correct a server's pronunciation (though, like Abra, I might give a little hint on the side if he seemed like he might appreciate it), but I have been in situations where the server has corrected me. Or maybe I should say incorrected me, as I generally only say things out loud if I know how to pronounce them. So then I'm left in the awkward position of saying "Dude..." or just ignoring it. Which I mostly do unless it's going to make a difference in what actually comes out of the kitchen.

A particularly thorny instance of mussels mariniere vs mussels marinara comes to mind. We nearly came to blows.

[Behemoth]

I won't even get into the regular mangling of the Arabic language...

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For us non-native speakers, it's an easy one to mangle. I've been amazed at people mangling "hummus", of all things - it seemed so easy, and why anyone would pronounce it "HYOOMus" or "HOOmus" was beyond me. Recently I realized that I've been mangling the initial H and final S sounds, so I probably don't sound much better.

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The most common mistake is that people try to pronounce the heavy H as "KH" whereas it comes from lower down in the throat. I wish people would just pronounce it as a regular western H sound -- since Arabic also has a separate KH sound things can get kind of confusing. The difference, for example, between "muhammar", and "mukhammar" would be pretty big for an observant muslim . (Sorry, that's the best I could come up with off the top of my head.)

[MaxH]

various Austrians, including a principal Vienna food-wine journalist who answered my query on this ...another local expert suggested, now from Italy

I was asked about those language discussions. They are public, if anyone is interested, and they include more links on history of Grüner Veltliner. A pointer to them needs explanation depending on your familiarity with Internet history. They were on the wine newsgroup alt.food.wine which is not a Web site, though it can be accessed via Web sites, for instance Google Groups. More below, in the fine print. -- Max (max@tdl.com)

Newsgroups are the original public forums for the Internet and related networks, predating introduction of HTTP/HTML in 1991 (done also via newsgroups, by the way). A wine newsgroup has run since 1982, making it by far the oldest public wine forum online. (Chartered by Charles Wetherell Feb 27 1982 as net.wines, renamed rec.food.drink in 1987, alt.food.wine since 1994.) It now includes experts in several countries. Prominent wine Web-site operators such as Squires, Garr, Harrington, and Meadows were active there before they formed Web sites (mostly in the late 1990s). I’ve posted there off and on since 1983. Like most newsgroups, it's unmoderated and gets disruptive postings, though experienced international regulars there are good at discouraging this. The wine newsgroup is archived in various places and (except for a rich and seminal period late 80s to early 90s) accessible on groups.google.com for example. It’s important to learn the interface and newsgroup customs before posting anything there. Other background information is in the Google Groups Information article. "Netnews" and "Usenet" generally mean the newsgroups as a whole. Further history of the wine newsgroup and food online are HERE. Also, RFC1855 is another and basic Internet reference dating originally to 1982. (People who used the Internet read it as a matter of routine until a few years ago.) Newsgroups are credited to Bellovin and associates in 1979, basically an offshoot of recently standardized email protocols, still used today.

[Pan]

As The Hersch explains upthread you apparently do need to know the gender of the item in Portuguese if you're ordering one or two of them:

The latter, although I like both answers. But yes, Portuguese inflects two-zies for gender: duas cervejas, dois cafes.

This is not the case for the Romance languages I speak (French and Italian), but there may be other instances other than Portuguese in which it is the case.

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In Hebrew (I believe also Arabic and , I presume, other Semitic languages), both nouns and verbs are in masculine singular, feminine singular, masculine plural, and feminine plural forms.

[Behemoth]

various Austrians, including a principal Vienna food-wine journalist who answered my query on this ...another local expert suggested, now from Italy

I was asked about those language discussions. They are public, if anyone is interested, and they include more links on history of Grüner Veltliner.

MaxH, thanks for this -- the pronounciation makes a lot more sense once one knows the origin! (Plus, its a wine I love, so I want to make sure I know how to ask for it if I am in Austria )

[Behemoth]

In Hebrew (I believe also Arabic and , I presume, other Semitic languages), both nouns and verbs are in masculine singular, feminine singular, masculine plural, and feminine plural forms.

It's even worse. In Arabic, there is masculine/feminine for one, two and many. Although, unlike German and French, it is a little easier usually to figure out if something is female or male.

BTW, one = singular, many = plural. Is there such a word for two?

[Milagai]

In Hebrew (I believe also Arabic and , I presume, other Semitic languages), both nouns and verbs are in masculine singular, feminine singular, masculine plural, and feminine plural forms.

It's even worse. In Arabic, there is masculine/feminine for one, two and many. Although, unlike German and French, it is a little easier usually to figure out if something is female or male.

BTW, one = singular, many = plural. Is there such a word for two?

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Sanskrit does all of the above.

Verb declensions have:

singular dual plural

Nouns come in:

masculine neutral feminine

Milagai

Edited May 28, 2005 by Milagai (log)