Reviewing NYC Pizza

[kayb]

1 hour ago, BeeZee said:

Since I grew up in NY and now live 5 minutes from Papa's in NJ (it is no longer in Trenton) I can confirm that it is a tasty tomato pie. But not a NY style pizza.

Talking about pizza with NYers is like talking about BBQ with Southerners. Don't get us started.

 

I'll take your word for it. It was introduced to me as NYC style. Where has Papa's absconded to?

 

To tell you the truth, I don't know that I ever had pizza in NY. (Though I can testify to the pastrami sandwich at Stage Deli.}

[bos]

I how forgot .. artichoke pizza .. also good 😋

[weinoo]

The NY Times ran a pretty fun article recently, entitled How the Slice Joint Made Pizza the Perfect New York City Food.

 

Obviously, there are many more slice places than there are sit-down pizza places, but some of the best pizza available in NYC these days is offered only by the full pie, and you'll need to sit down for that. But the slice place was, and remains, a classic NY City joint. 

 

Quote

pizza — specifically the reheated, foldable, portable slice — is one of the city’s great uniters. There is no culinary experience that New Yorkers share more widely and more unanimously than the slice joint. Like catching a sunset over the skyline or stepping in an icy curbside puddle, the slice joint has, since its beginnings more than 50 years ago, become common currency.

 

[Pan]

Wait, only "more than 50 years ago"? I'm 54, and I had the impression that the foldable pizza slice had existed in New York forever when I was a little kid. Doesn't it go back to some time in the 20s or 30s or something?

[weinoo]

Staff note: This post about Neapolitan-style pizza in NYC has been moved from the "Cooking with Myhrvold and Migoya's Modernist Pizza" topic, to maintain focus.

 

On 1/4/2023 at 2:12 AM, Chris Hennes said:

Then I topped that with a Modernist Bechamel (a.k.a. thickened milk), steamed baby spinach, ricotta, garlic confit, and a TON of pizza cheese (3-4x what I'd normally use on a pizza this size).

 

 

This a current review of a new Neapolitan pizza place which just opened in Greenwich Village.  It's a spinoff of DaMichele in Naples.  Posting it here because I thought what you said above is related and interesting.

 

This New Branch of a Historic Pizzeria Is as Good as Naples if You Keep It Simple

 

Quote

Indeed, the true pie of Naples is an exercise in perfectly textured plainness, a pleasure to eat precisely because it tastes wholesome without challenging with sharp flavors. Also, American pizzaioli often can’t help offering a few additional toppings that Americans expect, like pepperoni (rarely seen in Italy) or superfluous extra cheeses to ramp up the richness.

 

This gives you another place to try next time you head east, @Chris Hennes

[Chris Hennes]

15 hours ago, weinoo said:

it tastes wholesome

I'm not sure what that means, but I'm not sure I want to know... Have you eaten there? Do you agree with the Eater piece's assessment?

[weinoo]

7 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:

I'm not sure what that means, but I'm not sure I want to know... Have you eaten there? Do you agree with the Eater piece's assessment?

 

That was a quote from Sietsema, though it looks as if I said it!

 

Anyway, I have not yet been  - it just opened, and I don't get over to that neighborhood too often (but to try these, I think I'll have to get over there soon).  But I think what Sietsema is trying to say (?) is that a good Neapolitan pie (a marinara or a margherita being the iconic examples) is relatively healthy compared to, say, that deep dish monstrosity.

 

FWIW, I had this for lunch yesterday.  Not necessarily wholesome; only delicious...

 

 

Two fairly iconic NY slices, at Joe's on 14th Street.  Jug of crushed red pepper for your enjoyment if you so wish.

Edited January 5, 2023 by weinoo (log)

[scott123]

On 1/4/2023 at 7:35 AM, weinoo said:

This a current review of a new Neapolitan pizza place which just opened in Greenwich Village.  It's a spinoff of DaMichele in Naples.  Posting it here because I thought what you said above is related and interesting.

 

This New Branch of a Historic Pizzeria Is as Good as Naples if You Keep It Simple

 

I'm not too terribly optimistic   First, Sorbillo isn't featured in any of Julia Robert's movies, but, as far as legendary Neapolitan pizzerias go, it's legit, and Sorbillo couldn't cut it in NY. I can't say for sure why Sorbillo's pizza was so bad, but, out of all the potential culprits, a failure to compensate for NYC's varying water chemistry is at the top of my list.  Da Michele has that same obstacle. 

Da Michele's oven doesn't instill a lot of faith either.  Neapolitan gas pizza ovens have come a long way, but, scaling them up to the size Da Michele is working with is uncharted territory.  Historically, high output pizzerias, instead of going with huge ovens, they would just add multiple traditional sized ovens.  Don't get me wrong, the pizza in the photo looks like the real deal, but, there's a huge difference between making a pie for a reviewer you know is coming and churning out a few hundred pies a day.

Roberto Caporuscio (Keste, Don Antonio) lost his way when he started messing with whole wheat flour, and as much as Anthony Mangieri will boast about the old world authenticity of his pies, one look at them and it's obvious how much creative license he's taken- which many people do cartwheels over, but, as far as really great authentic Neapolitan pizza in NY goes, there is an opportunity. It would be phenomenal if Da Michele could fill those shoes.  After being hopeful about Sorbillo and getting burned, though... I am very much in a wait and see configuration, regardless of one impressive photo.

 

[weinoo]

4 hours ago, scott123 said:

I can't say for sure why Sorbillo's pizza was so bad

 

Oh Sorbillo wasn't that bad. Might not have been that authentic however.

 

 

 

There's plenty worse that are open!

[Chris Hennes]

9 hours ago, weinoo said:

healthy compared to, say, that deep dish monstrosity

Not exactly a high bar 😆I don't think deep dish is going to make it into my regular rotation!!

[weinoo]

Took a drive out to pretty deep Brooklyn yesterday...let's call it Sheepshead Bay.

 

We got the last table, window seats, and the sun was blasting in, casting shadows...

 

 

But that didn't stop us from enjoying 2 Grandma slices, a regular slice (for me) and a pepperoni slice for Significant Eater.

 

Lucia Pizza of Avenue X

 

Possibly a top 10 in Brooklyn.

Edited March 27, 2023 by weinoo (log)

[weinoo]

34 minutes ago, weinoo said:

Lucia Pizza of Avenue X

 

Oh - I asked Salvatore if he'd sell some dough to me.  He responded with that classic Brooklyn line: "If I sold you some dough, I'd have to kill you."  (He did say he could tell me a recipe that I might want to try at home).

[scott123]

15 hours ago, weinoo said:

He did say he could tell me a recipe that I might want to try at home

 

Perhaps he's the exception, but I've never met a successful professional pizza maker who could navigate the varying thermodynamics of a home oven- or the ins and outs of retail ingredients.  Even just scaling commercial recipes down can sometimes trip them up.

Grandma looks pretty legit, though. And the bake time might not be blazingly fast.  But I doubt he's using all purpose flour, though.

[weinoo]

6 hours ago, scott123 said:

Perhaps he's the exception, but I've never met a successful professional pizza maker who could navigate the varying thermodynamics of a home oven- or the ins and outs of retail ingredients.  Even just scaling commercial recipes down can sometimes trip them up.

I'm pretty sure he was just busting my balls.

 

6 hours ago, scott123 said:

Grandma looks pretty legit, though. And the bake time might not be blazingly fast.  But I doubt he's using all purpose flour, though.

 

Grandma was pretty damn good.

[weinoo]

EaterNY has run a piece entitled: The Future of Classic New York Slice Shops Hangs in the Balance.

 

According to the author's website:

 

Quote

I was born in Pakistan and grew up in Hong Kong, a city I still call home.

 

So I'm sure there's a lot of formative knowledge about pizza 🙄 .

 

In any event, the author did choose to interview some knowledgeable people. To whit:

 

Quote

“Old-school pizza places are a part of New York’s culinary history,” says Scott Wiener, a pizza historian. “When you talk about pizza as history, genealogy, immigration, economics, it gains a third dimension. We’re going to lose out on a big chunk of that story.”

 

Lots of words in the article about one of my favorite slice shops, Luigi's.

[scott123]

On 5/20/2023 at 8:11 AM, weinoo said:

EaterNY has run a piece entitled: The Future of Classic New York Slice Shops Hangs in the Balance.

 

I devoted about 15 years of my life towards trying to preserve the slices of my youth.  For the most part, it's been a lost cause.  The classic slice has been on the brink of extinction for decades. With the recent explosion in the popularity of pizza, I think the slice is a little better off than it used to be, but, it's still on life support.  If you know where to look, it can be found, but, it can take a tremendous investment of time and energy to stay up on what's current.  Since most folks aren't a position to do that, the classic slice is now only for a very small number of people.  And, no, it's not DiFara's and, I'm sorry, but Joe's is good, but it's not what the classic slice can be.

I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of great pizza to be had.  But unpretentious old school fare achieving it's full potential... good luck.  So, from that perspective I can share in Wiener's lament.  The saddest part of the near death of the classic slice is that practically no one is going to be able to experience that bliss.

Out of everything, though, closures are the most insignificant threat.  Novelty (Let's grind wheat berries in the basement! Let's add polydextrose and lecithin to the dough!),  evolving equipment (our new oven is 20% more energy efficient than the old one!), paranoia (bromate causes cancer!), corning cutting by ingredient manufacturers ,apathy, ego, and ignorance- those are what's had the greatest impact on the slice's demise. Closures are more of a symptom than the root cause.

Edited May 22, 2023 by scott123 (log)

[Chris Hennes]

On 1/4/2023 at 7:35 AM, weinoo said:

This a current review of a new Neapolitan pizza place which just opened in Greenwich Village.  It's a spinoff of DaMichele in Naples.  Posting it here because I thought what you said above is related and interesting.

 

This New Branch of a Historic Pizzeria Is as Good as Naples if You Keep It Simple

 

 

This gives you another place to try next time you head east, @Chris Hennes

I ate there tonight and overall it was quite good. I had a marinara and a margherita:

 

 

 

I was surprised by the basil and dried oregano on the marinara: I won’t go so far as to say they “ruined” the pie, which was fine, but Bianco’s was far superior. The margherita, though? Perfection. I’m not sure what sort of mozzarella it was (cow’s milk I’d guess), but it was perfectly salted, flavorful, well-distributed, and basically as good as margherita can get.

 

ETA: I should point out that these pizzas were enormous compared to the Neapolitan I am used to: 14” maybe? The waiter was pretty surprised we wanted two.

[weinoo]

Ooooh , good to know!

[MetsFan5]

Huh. That “margarita” does not at all look like one to me. The obviously shredded cheese versus fresh mozzarella reminds me of Elio’s frozen pizza. 
 

 

[Chris Hennes]

It was not shredded, just torn into strips.

[scott123]

On 7/2/2023 at 8:42 PM, Chris Hennes said:

I was surprised by the basil and dried oregano on the marinara

Considering how iconic the Da Michele marinara is, it's disappointing to see how much they've strayed from the path. Oregano is standard, but, a little oregano goes a long way. From an oregano quantity perspective, I'd classify some of those slices as inedible.  I don't know what they're thinking with the basil. This is just not a Da Michele marinara.

The truly unforgivable aspect to the marinara- at least, in my eyes, is the garlic.  The bake time on a Neapolitan pizza is so quick that if fresh garlic is going to cook, it has to be shaved. Otherwise, you're eating chunks of raw garlic.  I love an obscene amount of garlic in my babaganoush as much as the next guy, but, you give me a dish with a chunk of raw garlic in it- I'm not coming back to your establishment. 

 

Bianco shaves his garlic.- and he's got a slightly longer bake time as well.

[scott123]

On 7/3/2023 at 8:19 AM, Chris Hennes said:

It was not shredded, just torn into strips.

 

Technically it's shredded, but it's not a traditional American shred, bur, rather, a coarse shred.

https://youtu.be/3pxmIFz5914?t=279
 

I agree that It's not low moisture shredded cheese, which @MetsFan5 was implying. At the same time, though, he has a point about the aesthetic departure from Da Michele's norm. Obviously, they can't use the same cheese that they use in Italy, and I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed the flavor, but, to a purist, that aesthetic is a bit of a head scratcher.

Da Michele is notorious for their frugality.  They're one of the only places in Naples to do a seed oil drizzle rather than an olive oil one.  In the last 15 years, manufacturers have been pushing mass produced fresh mozzarellas.  It's just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route they took.

 

[Chris Hennes]

You are right about the garlic on the marinara as well, but I found it less offensive than the oregano (there was just so much of it!). That said, the garlic was so undercooked I question whether it was actually added after the bake instead of before.

 

Regarding the aesthetic of the margherita, I see what you mean, but from a flavor and texture standpoint I personally prefer smaller, more well-distributed chunks of mozzarella, and was happy with this one (recall also that the pizza above is huge, so so size of the chunks is a little deceptive in that photo). Then again, no one has ever accused me of being a "purist"!

[MetsFan5]

5 hours ago, scott123 said:

 

Technically it's shredded, but it's not a traditional American shred, bur, rather, a coarse shred.

https://youtu.be/3pxmIFz5914?t=279
 

I agree that It's not low moisture shredded cheese, which @MetsFan5 was implying. At the same time, though, he has a point about the aesthetic departure from Da Michele's norm. Obviously, they can't use the same cheese that they use in Italy, and I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed the flavor, but, to a purist, that aesthetic is a bit of a head scratcher.

Da Michele is notorious for their frugality.  They're one of the only places in Naples to do a seed oil drizzle rather than an olive oil one.  In the last 15 years, manufacturers have been pushing mass produced fresh mozzarellas.  It's just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route they took.

 

I was overly critical. But the aesthetic was off to me. If it tasted great, that’s awesome but I’d also be put off by garlic and too much oregano. 
 

(also I’m a female— the name makes it confusing) 

[weinoo]

Really excellent pie, at the newly opened location of L'Industrie pizza, in Greenwich Village. The original, tiny shop is in Williamsburg.