"Authentic": what does that mean, anyway?

[Tropicalsenior]

5 minutes ago, Eatmywords said:

How do you keep it short

Just one word will do it. Inspired. Carbonara inspired.

[blue_dolphin]

1 minute ago, Tropicalsenior said:

Just one word will do it. Inspired. Carbonara inspired.

 

I think they already took care of it more clearly by calling it Smoky Tomato Carbonara.

 

[chromedome]

It's hard to know. I've encountered the same result with a couple of beer brands (Budweiser being the only one you'd know) and a couple of herbal teas give me a dry tickle in my throat (anything containing nettles or rooiboos) but no other foods I've yet encountered...and I basically eat everything.

The only thing I actually go to McDonald's for is the cheap soft-serve cones, when it's summer and my van is loaded to capacity with grandkids. If I'm taken there I'll eat a McChicken.

[jimb0]

Just now, blue_dolphin said:

 

I think they already took care of it more clearly by calling it Smoky Tomato Carbonara.

 

 

exactly. 

[jimb0]

Just now, chromedome said:

It's hard to know. I've encountered the same result with a couple of beer brands (Budweiser being the only one you'd know) and a couple of herbal teas give me a dry tickle in my throat (anything containing nettles or rooiboos) but no other foods I've yet encountered...and I basically eat everything.

The only thing I actually go to McDonald's for is the cheap soft-serve cones, when it's summer and my van is loaded to capacity with grandkids. If I'm taken there I'll eat a McChicken.

 

i don't really eat normal ice creams these days but i admit to enjoying the very occasional copy paper white 99-cent mcdonalds cone.

[Tropicalsenior]

30 minutes ago, blue_dolphin said:

Smoky Tomato Carbonara.

I know we're just getting into a matter of semantics but that's still implies that it is carbonara, which it is not. By saying that something is inspired by another dish, it means that you have taken the basic premise of the original and added your own touch to make your own dish.

With all the billions of recipes on the internet it must be hard to come up with names that are original and that people will be drawn to. The other day I saw a recipe for Yummy Nummy Beef Stroganoff. You won't catch me clicking on that one!

Edited February 25, 2021 by Tropicalsenior (log)

[blue_dolphin]

Just now, Tropicalsenior said:

I know we're just getting into a matter of semantics but that's still implies that it is carbonara, which it is not.

Agreed on the semantics.  Their title tells me that it's NOT carbonara and tells you some thing quite the opposite!

[chromedome]

1 minute ago, Tropicalsenior said:

 

With all the billions of recipes on the internet it must be hard to come up with names that are original and that people will be drawn to. The other day I saw a recipe for Yummy Nummy Beef Stroganoff. You won't catch me clicking on that one!

LOL It may well be the kind of "stroganoff" my GF grew up with...ground beef browned in a pan, and sauced with Campbell's cream of mushroom soup.

[Tropicalsenior]

1 minute ago, chromedome said:

LOL It may well be the kind of "stroganoff" my GF grew up with...ground beef browned in a pan, and sauced with Campbell's cream of mushroom soup.

My husband absolutely hated beef stroganoff so for years I fed him beef and sour cream gravy with mushrooms. He loved it.

[weinoo]

2 hours ago, Tropicalsenior said:

The classic was made one way and one way only and if you change the ingredients, it is no longer that dish.

Adding just one word to the title of the recipe would have made a big difference. They could have called it "Carbonara Inspired Tomato Pasta" and I would have been completely fine with it.

Jimbo was right when he said that a lot of home cooks don't have an opportunity to resource the proper ingredients, but it is kind of sad to think that this is what a whole lot of people will think real carbonara tastes like.

 

Exactamundo.

Let's not forget how tortured cocktails become.

[weinoo]

1 hour ago, Tropicalsenior said:

Just one word will do it. Inspired. Carbonara inspired

Or even a few works - "in the style of" comes to mind.

 

Just for fun, I took out a few Roman cookbooks this morning. Each said guanciale; barring that, pancetta is a suitable sub or UNSMOKED BACON.

 

edited: because I writ pecorino instead of pancetta. I'm outraged!

Edited February 25, 2021 by weinoo (log)

[weinoo]

2 hours ago, jimb0 said:

i feel like you're deliberately misunderstanding me in order to maintain your outrage. i've never had either but if your grandmother smokes her brisket (i assume this is what franklin's does) and does an interpretation of a southern barbecue sauce, then sure. but i assume she doesn't and you're just being pithy.  

 

I have no outrage - certainly not at anyone trying their hand at cooking. (My grandmother made her brisket as all old jews did - in the oven). 

 

But let's be real - anyone reading the NY Times probably has internet. And anyone with internet probably can go to quite a few sites and order just what they need (well, maybe not in Costa Rica, but at least there's good coffee) to make a proper carbonara. 

 

This recipe is just another example of the dumbing down of everything sacred.

 

 

[Tropicalsenior]

4 minutes ago, weinoo said:

but at least there's good coffee) to make a proper carbonara. 

I had to read that twice. You kind of threw me there. I thought that would be the final outrage, coffee in carbonara. Yes, I'm sitting here right now with a big cup of Costa Rican coffee in front of me.

I still laugh about the time that we had visitors from Seattle and they brought me several bags of Starbucks. I didn't have the heart to tell them that Starbucks buys coffee from Costa Rica. I just kept it and gave it to my Costa Rican friends for Christmas.

[jimb0]

i just think it's laughable to think this is dumbing down of a sacred process. half of the stuff people proudly post on this board are modern or otherwise personalized takes on things that have come before. the food world would be extremely boring if everyone were forced to do everything as tradition demands. 

[Eatmywords]

37 minutes ago, weinoo said:

 

But let's be real - anyone reading the NY Times probably has internet. And anyone with internet probably can go to quite a few sites and order just what they need (well, maybe not in Costa Rica, but at least there's good coffee) to make a proper carbonara. 

 

This recipe is just another example of the dumbing down of everything sacred.

 

I'd think the pancetta would be attainable in Costa Rica as pork is popular.  Parmesan, a problem? 

 

Anyway I just laugh at how pissed and personal the Italians take this stuff. No changa nutting!
 

[heidih]

My thinking is along the lines of @weinoo said regarding anyone being able to look up carbonara on the net. As to the rest = first thought in  my tiny mind "time to call the knacker".

[jimb0]

2 minutes ago, heidih said:

My thinking is along the lines of @weinoo said regarding anyone being able to look up carbonara on the net. As to the rest = first thought in  my tiny mind "time to call the knacker".

 

it's not about "being able to look up carbonara on the net". 

 

a huge number of people who read that recipe will have never seen or tried or probably even heard of carbonara before. if you haven't seen, heard, or tried it before, and it calls for ingredients you've never heard of or might not be able to get, it might as well not exist. what they might do is google "what is a good substitute for guanciale" if they're adventurous. which if you look online almost every response lists both pancetta and bacon.

 

again, the recipe distinguishes itself as a variant by titling it as "smoky tomato" carbonara. this isn't dumbing down or simplified. it's just an interpretation. i'm honestly pretty disappointed in a lot of these responses.

[Tropicalsenior]

11 minutes ago, jimb0 said:

the food world would be extremely boring if everyone were forced to do everything as tradition demands. 

I'm not advocating that everyone go back and cook just the way it was before. Food evolves, it has to and it should. Most of it is good, very good. But some bloggers and television chefs take a perfectly good recipe, tear it apart and add to it until it doesn't even resemble the original. This is all done in the name of putting "my twist" to it. I can't tell you the times that I have clicked on a recipe and thought, what in God's name were they thinking?

I think a lot of good food has been ruined in the name of fusion. I cringe every time I see Mexican lasagna, Italian tacos, or my favorite is the one that I saw the other day, Polish sushi.

[chromedome]

I dunno, I've pretty much given up beating the authenticity drum. I've been in restaurants where "carbonara" is a creamy sauce with mushrooms, and in others where I was told with some heat that it's not Alfredo if it doesn't have peas in it. I basically just let it roll off of me (and never eat there again).

 

We all have lines we don't want to cross. For some it's a real Martini, or carbonara, or a beurre blanc sauce that's had cream added to stabilize it. In my case I'll enjoy your tomato-based fish stew (if you've made it well), but will privately wince if you call it "chowder."

 

I can't get exercised about it any more, though. In the immortal words of Austin Powers, "That bridge has sailed."

[jimb0]

3 minutes ago, Tropicalsenior said:

I'm not advocating that everyone go back and cook just the way it was before. Food evolves, it has to and it should. Most of it is good, very good. But some bloggers and television chefs take a perfectly good recipe, tear it apart and add to it until it doesn't even resemble the original. This is all done in the name of putting "my twist" to it. I can't tell you the times that I have clicked on a recipe and thought, what in God's name were they thinking?

I think a lot of good food has been ruined in the name of fusion. I cringe every time I see Mexican lasagna, Italian tacos, or my favorite is the one that I saw the other day, Polish sushi.

 

more your loss, then, i think. i can imagine a lasagna done with a spicy chorizo that would be delicious. 

 

and anyway, i don't see that happening here. i have every reason to expect that the dish is delicious, and, again, offers many of the same flavour notes as a traditional recipe. it's not like the writer made dufresne's TG shrimp noodles with cured fish cubes and shredded gjetost.

[Tropicalsenior]

19 minutes ago, jimb0 said:

variant

Therein lies the conundrum. Carbonara does not have variants. It is a specific style of a specific dish. I think this article from Epicurious explains it better than I can. Would you ever throw tomato sauce in Cacio e Pepe.

[Tropicalsenior]

27 minutes ago, chromedome said:

(and never eat there again).

I'm the same way but if I see Caesar salad or fettuccine Alfredo on a menu I at least want it to resemble the original dish. We had one seafood restaurant here that had Caesar salad on the menu. It didn't resemble a Caesar salad in any way shape or form but it was delicious, full of bacon, so I ordered it every time I went there.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Tropicalsenior (log)

[weinoo]

Exactly - it's a specific dish. With specific ingredients. From a specific geographic area.

 

 

[jimb0]

22 minutes ago, Tropicalsenior said:

Therein lies the conundrum. Carbonara does not have variants. It is a specific style of a specific dish. I think this article from Epicurious explains it better than I can. Would you ever throw tomato sauce in Cacio e Pepe.

 

probably not, but if some said they made a tomato, cheese, and pepper pasta, i wouldn't take to the internet and froth, either.

 

10 minutes ago, weinoo said:

Exactly - it's a specific dish. With specific ingredients. From a specific geographic area.

 

 

 

i expect few of you bothered to actually look at the recipe directions before leaping to judge.

 

"Carbonara, a Roman specialty, transforms a few basic ingredients into a rich pasta dish. It's traditionally made with Parmesan, eggs, guanciale (cured pork) and black pepper, but this version uses bacon, since it’s widely available and lends a nice smoky note. The creamy sauce is created when raw eggs are tossed with the hot pasta (away from direct heat to avoid curdled eggs). This can be tricky, but the method used here is foolproof: Whisk some hot pasta water into the beaten eggs, then drizzle the tempered egg mixture into the pasta while stirring vigorously for a glossy smooth sauce. Tomatoes are not traditional in carbonara, but they lend a bright tang to the dish."

 

she's extremely explicit about what traditional carbonara is, what changes she's made and why. the meal is much closer to carbonara than practically any other pasta dish. the name is fine.

 

this reminds me of people who try and offer up their southern purity by judging others on how they make cornbread.

Edited February 25, 2021 by jimb0 (log)

[Tropicalsenior]

14 minutes ago, weinoo said:

Exactly

I've seen this before and I loved it. You get the gold medal!