Ducasse stocks & Jus; Chapel - salt?

[paul o' vendange]

I know he's been covered in terms of his interesting methods re stocks and jus - I don't have any of his Grand Livres, but do have his Flavors of France and have read on him throughout here in terms of his approaches, e.g., not skimming the chicken stock, jus perlé, etc.  I've never tried his approach but I want to try all the stocks and jus in the index.  I've always skimmed all stocks like a freak, for instance.  Stumped how he would achieve clarity in his chicken stock but looking forward to it.

 

The use of salt.  See it universally here, and looked back to Chapel in his La Cuisine C'est Beaucoup Plus Que Les Recettes to see he, too, used salt.  I vaguely recall Bocuse does the same but at least cautions on reducing and resultant saltier flavor (I think.  I haven't read his Cuisine du Marché in a really long time).

 

I never use salt in any stocks, jus, fumets, etc.  Can anyone explain the reasoning?  Does salt aid in the extraction of flavor?

 

In general, I am very intrigued by Ducasse and have never really explored him in depth.  I have his Atelier, Flavors of France, Bistro (and "Cooking School," not a fan).  Outside his Grand Livres (which are way out of my range), any resources in particular you could recommend to get inside his methods (v. recipes; looking for commentary that aids learning his approach.  French Laundryesque?).

 

Thanks.

[weinoo]

I used to not use salt in stock making, which is how I learned to do it in cooking school.  But then I read somewhere that a bit of salt at the beginning of, say, a white chicken stock, help to coagulate the proteins and schmutz, which then are very easy to skim off the top.

 

Now I salt all stocks at the start; very judiciously. And I skim pretty often (or when necessary) during the first hour, before mirepoix is added. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by weinoo (log)

[paul o' vendange]

29 minutes ago, weinoo said:

I used to not use salt in stock making, which is how I learned to do it in cooking school.  But then I read somewhere that a bit of salt at the beginning of, say, a white chicken stock, help to coagulate the proteins and schmutz, which then are very easy to skim off the top.

 

Now I salt all stocks at the start; very judiciously. And I skim pretty often (or when necessary) during the first hour, before mirepoix is added. 

 

Thanks weinoo.  I wondered about that. 

 

What do you think of his thing for white chicken stock to not skim at all?  I'm not certain of my memory, but I think Judy Rogers might have felt the same way, removing fat in the frigo.  Now that I think of it, she trained for a short while with the Troisgros brothers, and here's from their The Nouvelle Cuisine of Jean and Pierre Troisgros, on light chicken stock:

 

(after adding the chicken)...bring to the boil gently and skim..."

 

but then, after aromatics:  "...make certain that it stays at a rolling boil for 45 minutes...."

 

Unfortunately I only have the English translation so I guess it's possible that's a translation error but it sure seems specific.  Weirdly they say  right after "...45 minutes":

 

"...skim off the fat as it rises to the surface.  These two points [skimming, and the rolling boil] are important if you want to achieve a crystal-clear stock." Rolling boil with light chicken stock? Crystal clear?

 

I don't get it at all.  I understand from Steven and others that Ducasse has no problem with clear stocks and jus - with the butter giving it a beautiful sheen, without the lip-smacking unpleasantness of overly reduced stocks (after all these years, I'm moving in the same direction.  Just for home and friends now).  

 

What are your thoughts?

Edited January 12, 2022 by paul o' vendange (log)

[Dave the Cook]

1 hour ago, paul o' vendange said:

I never use salt in any stocks, jus, fumets, etc.  Can anyone explain the reasoning?  Does salt aid in the extraction of flavor?

 

Not just flavor, but gelatin, too. A few -- wow, almost 20 -- years ago, I did an experiment to try to determine how much, if any, salt to add to stock. I don't make stock this way anymore, but I still employ the same salt/stock ratio as described in this topic.

 

Quote

As for salt, last weekend I made two batches of stock, each using four pounds of legs and two quarts of water. In one I used 2 teaspoons of salt; in the other, I used none. Before doing this, I grabbed few books to check proportions. Cooks Illustrated, Joy and The Way to Cook all listed salt in this amount for two quarts of stock and four pounds of scraps. Rene Verdon and Michelle Urvater omitted it (both are more likely to use stocks as glaces than straight). So I'm not without precedent here.

 

A visual inspection showed that the salted stock had developed much more gelatin. I believe this is because the salt accelerated extraction of the gelatin proteins. Presumably this could be overcome with longer simmering of the unsalted stock.

 

We did a tasting of straight stock, a 50% reduction and a 75% reduction. There were no real surprises. By the time the salted sample was down to 25% of its original volume, it was roughly the equivalent of seawater, though the chicken background was still quite robust. What was a little surprising was how little salt was needed to make a big difference in the fullness of the taste. By combining samples, I determined that 2 parts unsalted to 1 part salted rounded out the stock without a hint of identifiable salt flavor (one taster commented that she felt like she was "drinking chicken"). Oddly, adding salt directly to the unsalted sample did not have the same effect--tasters could tell the difference.

So unless you're making glace de voillaile, I recommend kosher salt at the rate of 1/4 teaspoon per quart.

 

[weinoo]

46 minutes ago, Dave the Cook said:

I recommend kosher salt at the rate of 1/4 teaspoon per quart.

 

But even kosher salts weigh in differently, though probably not enough to make a difference in this small quantity; I generally start with this amount or a little bit more, kind of no matter how much stock I'm starting, since as I skim I'm taking water off obviously.  When I'm done skimming, I'll taste just to get an idea - salt can always be added  but never removed, as the old saying goes.

 

I've never really heard of rolling boils for making stock, though in school we did learn of a method they called "express stock." Which was stock made at a quite higher heat than a gentle simmer (which is how I like to make stock) for a much shorter period of time.

 

When you think of making stock in a pc, you know it's cooking pretty rapidly, yet some of the clearest (and best) stocks come from pressure cookers, though one has to cool them down properly before opening, so as not to agitate everything together.

[Dave the Cook]

11 minutes ago, weinoo said:

 

But even kosher salts weigh in differently, though probably not enough to make a difference in this small quantity; I generally start with this amount or a little bit more, kind of no matter how much stock I'm starting, since as I skim I'm taking water off obviously.  When I'm done skimming, I'll taste just to get an idea - salt can always be added  but never removed, as the old saying goes.

 

I've never really heard of rolling boils for making stock, though in school we did learn of a method they called "express stock." Which was stock made at a quite higher heat than a gentle simmer (which is how I like to make stock) for a much shorter period of time.

 

When you think of making stock in a pc, you know it's cooking pretty rapidly, yet some of the clearest (and best) stocks come from pressure cookers, though one has to cool them down properly before opening, so as not to agitate everything together.

 

Good point about weight. For purposes of making stock, one can use whatever one wants, of course. I'd say I'm calling for 1 to no-more-than 1.5 g per liter of finished stock.

 

I'm with you on how to apply heat, and I'm always baffled when my partner makes pc stock that's rich and crystal clear.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

7 hours ago, weinoo said:

 

But even kosher salts weigh in differently, though probably not enough to make a difference in this small quantity; I generally start with this amount or a little bit more, kind of no matter how much stock I'm starting, since as I skim I'm taking water off obviously.  When I'm done skimming, I'll taste just to get an idea - salt can always be added  but never removed, as the old saying goes.

 

I've never really heard of rolling boils for making stock, though in school we did learn of a method they called "express stock." Which was stock made at a quite higher heat than a gentle simmer (which is how I like to make stock) for a much shorter period of time.

 

When you think of making stock in a pc, you know it's cooking pretty rapidly, yet some of the clearest (and best) stocks come from pressure cookers, though one has to cool them down properly before opening, so as not to agitate everything together.

 

But in a pressure cooker the stocks aren't boiling.

 

[paul o' vendange]

This is all great info, thanks you guys - Dave in particular, thanks for the link back to your thread.  Awesome experiment.  If PaulRaphael happens to see this I know he loves to make stock in a PC, hopefully he'll chime in.  I have a massive one capable of handling 5L Erlenmeyer flasks (I used to use them for yeast propagation in brewing and other things), so.....thats a lot of bones!

 

I'm such a freak.  I find myself almost tearing at the flesh to abandon myself to another approach - almost using confirmation bias to find some old school French guys who don't use salt to "give permission" it's OK to stick with what I've always done.  Almost all do.  I'm screwed.  It feels like I'm making a Tetrapak broth.  

 

Can't even begin to go from there to not religiously skimming every time a fleck pops up to the surface and embracing Ducasse's absolute neglect during the pendency of the simmer.  And a stick of butter!

 

The obsessive weirdo runs square up against the guy on the shoulder who slaps upside the head, "what's wrong with you?  You're not cooking for anyone paying you anymore, freaking' try it!"

 

I'm in need of gustatory counseling.

[TdeV]

To draw the attention of @paulraphael.

[paul o' vendange]

19 minutes ago, TdeV said:

To draw the attention of @paulraphael.

Thanks Tdev!  I've tried that and for some reason I'm not getting the link suggestions - it just stays as plain text.

 

-except right now, of course, as I'm confusing this site with a bread site I'm part of (doesn't have this feature).  My brain, lol.  @TdeV.  @paulraphael, you're being talked about!

Edited January 13, 2022 by paul o' vendange (log)

[weinoo]

16 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

But in a pressure cooker the stocks aren't boiling.

 

 

Right - just at a higher temp than boiling, and if you do a quick release, that will set everything in motion inside the pc.

[AAQuesada]

I really like this brown chicken stock from the new Septime book. It comes out pretty great. I do add a touch of gray salt before I reduce the stock 

 

 

[weinoo]

All those wings - haven't they read @Duvel's topic!

 

And while for a restaurant I can see (and probably have made similar) using 11 lbs. of wings, trimmings, bones, etc. and getting a measly liter of stock, but for home use, when stock can be used for simple soups, to cook beans, etc. etc., I prefer a more substantial yield (which can always be reduced to a glaze if need be).

 

Also - everything French I've been taught about stock making says mirepoix and no garlic, but at least they've got the bouquet garni!

[AAQuesada]

I really find mirepoix is over-rated personally, loved the depth of flavor I got from making it this way. There really are many many ways to make stocks/broths/jus and I do appreciate the traditional way as well. FWIW Bertrand Grebaut came from 3 years at Aperge/Passard and now has 1 etoile at Septime

[weinoo]

11 minutes ago, AAQuesada said:

FWIW Bertrand Grebaut came from 3 years at Aperge/Passard and now has 1 etoile at Septime

 

At home, I have 5 stars!! 

(And yes, I've eaten there a number of times and it's quite good. I think one time the cheese course consisted of like 1/2 pound comté thinly sliced).

[heidih]

43 minutes ago, AAQuesada said:

I really find mirepoix is over-rated personally, loved the depth of flavor I got from making it this way. There really are many many ways to make stocks/broths/jus and I do appreciate the traditional way as well. FWIW Bertrand Grebaut came from 3 years at Aperge/Passard and now has 1 etoile at Septime

If the stock is going to be the basis of further preps I also do not see the point. Unless basis for a planned service soup  - I add aromatics, flavors when I make the actual dish. I grew up with clear broths being revered for Sunday dinner Usually beef (Rindsuppe) where you could see the bottom of the soup plate (not a bowl) and the noodles cooked separately so as not to cloud. How much is aesthetics and how much taste?

[weinoo]

As most good chefs (along with Escoffier) will tell you, it's about the layering and depth of flavors.

 

Just as in that Septime recipe shown above, there's bouquet and onion and other flavors cooking along with the chicken.

[paul o' vendange]

13 minutes ago, weinoo said:

As most good chefs (along with Escoffier) will tell you, it's about the layering and depth of flavors.

 

Just as in that Septime recipe shown above, there's bouquet and onion and other flavors cooking along with the chicken.

 

I do like the complex sweetness that comes from aromatics, but add them in final hour.  I love Keller's veal stock, but with the remouillage, those veggies are dead.  I think if there's one issue I have with it, it's a bit too sweet for me, and I like some (lighter side) roastiness.

 

Making Ducasse's chicken jus right now.  2# chix parts, 8 oz. butter, 6 garlic cloves smashed, 1/2 tsp salt.  Two glaze cycles, mere 20 minutes with very little water.  I'm a fan of repeated glazings, which I think Ecoffier does either with his fond brun, or fond brun de veau, maybe both, Keller's "quick sauces."  Will report!  

[JoNorvelleWalker]

5 hours ago, weinoo said:

 

Right - just at a higher temp than boiling, and if you do a quick release, that will set everything in motion inside the pc.

 

Hence one does not do a quick release.

 

[weinoo]

1 hour ago, paul o' vendange said:

I do like the complex sweetness that comes from aromatics, but add them in final hour.

 

Exactly!  That's mostly what I do though sometimes for the final two hours. I really let the bones get a head start. Leek greens, in my opinion, are almost essential.

[weinoo]

I think one of the best chicken stocks I've made was from Modernist, in the Instant Pot.  Now I have to look - hold on....yes, with wings and ground thigh meat. And aromatics.

 

 

[paulraphael]

7 hours ago, paul o' vendange said:

Thanks Tdev!  I've tried that and for some reason I'm not getting the link suggestions - it just stays as plain text.

 

-except right now, of course, as I'm confusing this site with a bread site I'm part of (doesn't have this feature).  My brain, lol.  @TdeV.  @paulraphael, you're being talked about!

 

What, huh, who?

 

I've missed the idea that salt can aid extraction of anything in a stock. I'd like explore it (or see if it's explored elsewhere). I don't recall seeing anything about this in Modernist Cuisine or in the old James Peterson Sauces book (a gem). 

 

As far as skimming, those days are long over for me. Ever since Dave Arnold and Nils Noren posted their pressure cooker experiments (and Mhyrvold & Co continued the thread) I've been all PC all the time for chicken and meat-based stocks. 

 

My reduction days are mostly over too. When I want to make a glace or coulis, I start with proportions pretty close to what I'm hoping to end with. Why lose all those aromatics? The Carême and Escoffier methods seem very dated now. They're about throwing in a whole barnyard full of meat in in the beginning, knowing that most of the flavor will go out the window. You can do better even without a pressure cooker. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by paulraphael (log)

[weinoo]

I like the way the apartment smells when making stove top stock.

[paulraphael]

21 minutes ago, weinoo said:

I like the way the apartment smells when making stove top stock.

 

I do too, but those smells are a symptom of a problem. I'd rather keep them captive.

[heidih]

43 minutes ago, weinoo said:

I like the way the apartment smells when making stove top stock.

As does the feline