Cooking with Myhrvold and Migoya's Modernist Pizza

[KennethT]

@weinoo and @Chris Hennes - weinoo's right - while the cornicione may be 1-1/4" wide or so, it's definitely not nearly that high.

[KennethT]

26 minutes ago, weinoo said:

 

I was looking for you!

ha!  I've never actually been in there - it's always been delivered.  Unlike a lot of other things, I find that pizza is better delivered than when I pick it up and bring it home.  I don't have one of those flat insulated bags they use, and I don't have a bike that goes 20mph.  They always deliver really fast to us, so I don't think they're making any other stops along the way...

[Chris Hennes]

2 hours ago, KennethT said:

@weinoo and @Chris Hennes - weinoo's right - while the cornicione may be 1-1/4" wide or so, it's definitely not nearly that high.

Modernist Pizza agrees, their photos all look more like the ones @weinoo posted -- clearly, I have more work to do on my New York-style pizza-making skills! Well, all of my pizza making skills, really, but I thought my first go at Neapolitan was pretty respectable. In my mind NY-style pizzas are BIG, though, and I can't go any larger than about 12" in my home oven, and 16" in the Ooni. I am not sure where to compromise.

[weinoo]

 

5 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

I can't go any larger than about 12" in my home oven, and 16" in the Ooni. I am not sure where to compromise.

If my memory serves me correctly, @Chris Hennes, in most NYC pizza places serving the aforementioned style of pie (the NYC style, that is), if you wanted a whole pie, you could order one of two sizes. Small or large being the two choices.

 

Was the small around 12", and they would cut it into six slices?  The large was anywhere from 16 - 18", and cut into 8. So, I'd think you could do a 12" in the home oven for the best NYC approximation, no?

 

I think you've got the Neapolitan down pretty nicely, though I'm sure a few would disagree.

[Robenco15]

Did another 82% hydration. This time with Caputo Pizzeria (instead or Super Nuvola) and the full 150g of pregelatanized flour. What a difference.  Still needed the paddle attachment to get me to the window pane, but so much better. Excited for tomorrow night. 
 

Here’s a bbq rib pizza from a few months ago. 
 

[Chris Hennes]

2 hours ago, weinoo said:

Was the small around 12", and they would cut it into six slices?  The large was anywhere from 16 - 18", and cut into 8. So, I'd think you could do a 12" in the home oven for the best NYC approximation, no?

 

OK, thanks, I was imagining them as being larger -- yeah, doing 12" in my home oven will definitely be better. I don't really know how to control the thickness of the outer rim very well, I'll have to re-read that section of the book.

[Chris Hennes]

Sausage and Cream Pizza (KM p. 277)

 

From the "tables of toppings" section labeled "Inspired by Pizzerias/Pizzaioli" comes this pizza that was "inspired by" Nancy Silverton. I used the standard Neapolitan crust, baked in the Ooni at full temp. The sauce is just heavy cream: for my first pizza I used the "standard" sauce amount of 120g, which seemed plausible when the cream was at room temperature. AHAHAHAHA😆. No. When I cut the pizza after baking all the cream just ran off onto the cutting board. So for pizza two I lightly coated the dough with the cream, probably more like 40-50g: this was much more successful. I love that the red onions stay crisp on this pizza, overall the flavors were great, but truthfully I'd probably prefer a more standard bechamel sauce here, or potentially just a layer of crème fraîche. Would I then have a pizza "inspired by Modernist Pizza which was inspired by Nancy Silverton"?

 

Here's what that first pie looked like pre-bake

 

Can't get enough of these oven shots, I love the color of the backlit onions...

 

This is the second pizza: you can't really tell, but it is not a bowl of sausage and cream soup:

[JoNorvelleWalker]

1 hour ago, Chris Hennes said:

 

Can't get enough of these oven shots, I love the color of the backlit onions...

 

 

I want to get a Laowa probe lens like Nathan uses.

 

[FlashJack]

24 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

I want to get a Laowa probe lens like Nathan uses.

I'd not heard of these before. The prices are eye-watering. You'll needs Nathan's funds.

 

But Australian! If you corrupt enough eGullet people into this one Jo it could restore our national accounts.

Edited October 22, 2021 by FlashJack
typo (log)

[KennethT]

17 hours ago, weinoo said:

 

If my memory serves me correctly, @Chris Hennes, in most NYC pizza places serving the aforementioned style of pie (the NYC style, that is), if you wanted a whole pie, you could order one of two sizes. Small or large being the two choices.

 

Was the small around 12", and they would cut it into six slices?  The large was anywhere from 16 - 18", and cut into 8. So, I'd think you could do a 12" in the home oven for the best NYC approximation, no?

 

I think you've got the Neapolitan down pretty nicely, though I'm sure a few would disagree.

@Chris HennesMost places now have a "medium" which is like 16", cut into 6 slices and a "large" which is like 18" cut into 8 slices.  Here and there, some places have a "personal" size, which is like 12" and is usually cut into 4 slices.

[KennethT]

17 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:

Modernist Pizza agrees, their photos all look more like the ones @weinoo posted -- clearly, I have more work to do on my New York-style pizza-making skills! Well, all of my pizza making skills, really, but I thought my first go at Neapolitan was pretty respectable. In my mind NY-style pizzas are BIG, though, and I can't go any larger than about 12" in my home oven, and 16" in the Ooni. I am not sure where to compromise.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud your efforts!  I'm really impressed by the stuff you show here.  I just wanted to chime in since you said that you didn't have much New York pizza eating experience, something most NYers have more than enough of!!!

[Chris Hennes]

Bacon and Onion Pizza (KM p.273)

with

Modernist High-Hydration Neapolitan Dough (KM p. 40)

 

Up to now I've been making my Neapolitan pizzas with their standard Neapolitan dough recipe. Tonight I tried the Modernist variant, which makes a 82% hydration dough by pregelatinizing some of the flour -- this is the dough that @Robenco15 has been posting about up-topic. I used the Caputo 00 "Chef's Flour", same as I've been using for all my Neapolitans. I have one more 1kg bag of it left before I'm switching to their Pizzeria flour. Even with the Modernist treatment the dough basically behaves like a 82% hydration dough (surprise!!), so on the one hand it practically shapes itself, but on the other it is very sticky, and sucks up the flour you put down to lubricate your peel very quickly. Very, very, VERY quickly. I was apparently too lackadaisical in strolling to my pizza oven the first time, the pizza simply would not come off the peel: it was a total loss, it sort of rolled into a slopped mess in the oven, and from there went straight into the trash bin.

 

The second time I put a bit more zip in my step (and used semolina) and managed to get the pizza into the oven with a very vigorous shake of the peel. So I at least got one pizza tonight. Sort of. I was making a pizza from their "Classic" ingredients table. It's got a bechamel sauce, swiss cheese, bacon lardons, browned onions, and crumbled gorgonzola (added after baking). For the bechamel I tried the "Modernist" variant in this book, which is different from the one in Modernist Cuisine and Modernist Bread: in this case it's really just a milk fluid gel. It works fine as a pizza topping, but tasted on its own I think I prefer the original version they developed, with the pressure-cooked roux. Then, I missed what turned out to be a critical note about the bacon lardons, unfortunately. It says "partially rendered". I'm not used to cooking at this temperature, I just made the bacon the way I normally do for pizza. So it burned in the oven. Doh!

 

I remind myself that I bought the books specifically to push my cooking skills... it's working! Two more "learning experiences" tonight!

 

 

[Robenco15]

11 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

Bacon and Onion Pizza (KM p.273)

with

Modernist High-Hydration Neapolitan Dough (KM p. 40)

 

Up to now I've been making my Neapolitan pizzas with their standard Neapolitan dough recipe. Tonight I tried the Modernist variant, which makes a 82% hydration dough by pregelatinizing some of the flour -- this is the dough that @Robenco15 has been posting about up-topic. I used the Caputo 00 "Chef's Flour", same as I've been using for all my Neapolitans. I have one more 1kg bag of it left before I'm switching to their Pizzeria flour. Even with the Modernist treatment the dough basically behaves like a 82% hydration dough (surprise!!), so on the one hand it practically shapes itself, but on the other it is very sticky, and sucks up the flour you put down to lubricate your peel very quickly. Very, very, VERY quickly. I was apparently too lackadaisical in strolling to my pizza oven the first time, the pizza simply would not come off the peel: it was a total loss, it sort of rolled into a slopped mess in the oven, and from there went straight into the trash bin.

 

The second time I put a bit more zip in my step (and used semolina) and managed to get the pizza into the oven with a very vigorous shake of the peel. So I at least got one pizza tonight. Sort of. I was making a pizza from their "Classic" ingredients table. It's got a bechamel sauce, swiss cheese, bacon lardons, browned onions, and crumbled gorgonzola (added after baking). For the bechamel I tried the "Modernist" variant in this book, which is different from the one in Modernist Cuisine and Modernist Bread: in this case it's really just a milk fluid gel. It works fine as a pizza topping, but tasted on its own I think I prefer the original version they developed, with the pressure-cooked roux. Then, I missed what turned out to be a critical note about the bacon lardons, unfortunately. It says "partially rendered". I'm not used to cooking at this temperature, I just made the bacon the way I normally do for pizza. So it burned in the oven. Doh!

 

I remind myself that I bought the books specifically to push my cooking skills... it's working! Two more "learning experiences" tonight!

 

 

Awesome man! Yes, the dough is difficult. I’m using Caputo Pizzeria (blue bag), but not sure the difference is much in that regard. Did you make a higher amount of the pregelatanized flour so you had 150g? The first time due to wastage I only got 131g. The second time I doubled the pregel recipe so I easily got 150g. Were you able to get it to window pane? The paddle attachment helps a lot. 
 

I’m doing it for lunch tomorrow and for 4 dough balls I’d like to get one good one, lol. Takes practice. 
 

For shaping the balls some cold water on your hands helps a lot. Then when it comes to opening the skins, yeah, a ton of flour. 

[Chris Hennes]

13 hours ago, Robenco15 said:

Did you make a higher amount of the pregelatanized flour so you had 150g? The first time due to wastage I only got 131g. The second time I doubled the pregel recipe so I easily got 150g. Were you able to get it to window pane? The paddle attachment helps a lot. 

I just followed the recipe exactly, I didn't worry about whether I actually got every gram: that's been my process with all this sort of recipe in Modernist Bread as well. I very rarely try to get full gluten formation with my mixer: I let it do the preliminary mix and go for a few minutes, then switch to using the vacuum chamber to finish it off. Feels like cheating, but the dough is perfect every time.

[Robenco15]

3 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

I just followed the recipe exactly, I didn't worry about whether I actually got every gram: that's been my process with all this sort of recipe in Modernist Bread as well. I very rarely try to get full gluten formation with my mixer: I let it do the preliminary mix and go for a few minutes, then switch to using the vacuum chamber to finish it off. Feels like cheating, but the dough is perfect every time.

Vacuum chamber? That works?

[Chris Hennes]

Yeah, it's something they wrote about in Modernist Bread -- what you're really trying to do is hydrate the flour, that's what's causing the gluten formation, not the mechanical mixing action. You can basically instantly hydrate it by putting it in a chamber vacuum and running a cycle. With a dough like this one, it's hard to get the mixer to grab it, even running at 100% speed, so I don't bother. Get it mixed, and then into the chamber.

[Robenco15]

5 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

Yeah, it's something they wrote about in Modernist Bread -- what you're really trying to do is hydrate the flour, that's what's causing the gluten formation, not the mechanical mixing action. You can basically instantly hydrate it by putting it in a chamber vacuum and running a cycle. With a dough like this one, it's hard to get the mixer to grab it, even running at 100% speed, so I don't bother. Get it mixed, and then into the chamber.

Thanks! Must be nice!

[Robenco15]

82% went better this time around. Amazing what happens when you use the correct flour. Super Nuvola takes the characteristics of a higher hydration dough so at 82% it was just way too much. 
 

This is the first one out of the oven so I took a pic so I didn’t forget. Not bad. I need to keep practicing. 
 

[Robenco15]

Made the Modernist Neapolitan Pizza Tomato Sauce just now for tomorrow night. Looks great. I usually add 2% EVOO but didn’t this time in case it’d mess with the Xanthan Gum. Wish there was a way to contact them with minor questions like this. 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

2 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:

Yeah, it's something they wrote about in Modernist Bread -- what you're really trying to do is hydrate the flour, that's what's causing the gluten formation, not the mechanical mixing action. You can basically instantly hydrate it by putting it in a chamber vacuum and running a cycle. With a dough like this one, it's hard to get the mixer to grab it, even running at 100% speed, so I don't bother. Get it mixed, and then into the chamber.

 

Chris, exactly how do you put your dough in the chamber?  All I can envision is a mess.

 

[Chris Hennes]

For a batch this size (1kg), I use a 2qt cambro (the short and wide one, not the tall skinny one). The dough puffs up pretty close to the top, but not over it.

[Chris Hennes]

4 hours ago, Robenco15 said:

Wish there was a way to contact them with minor questions like this. 

You might try Twitter or Instagram, they're pretty active on social media.

[Robenco15]

8 minutes ago, Chris Hennes said:

You might try Twitter or Instagram, they're pretty active on social media.

Yeah I tweeted them right after this. In my experience if it isn’t a praising tweet or something similar they don’t bother. 

[Chris Hennes]

2 hours ago, Robenco15 said:

Yeah I tweeted them right after this. In my experience if it isn’t a praising tweet or something similar they don’t bother. 

Well, at any rate, the olive oil won't affect the thickening of the xanthan gum, so you are free to add it.

[Chris Hennes]

Tokyo Marinara Pizza (KM p. 208)

 

I made this again with the high-hydration dough I used yesterday: this time it was double-aged, this was the same batch of dough. Apparently the defining characteristic of Tokyo Marinara is an enormous amount of olive oil drizzled over the pizza before baking. It's also got a bit of torn basil and dried oregano that the original lacks. And yes, it's supposed to have garlic... which is still sitting on my counter, I think, I completely spaced on adding it I was in such a hurry to prevent the dough from sticking. Doh!

 

 

That's about 2 tablespoons of olive oil on that 12" pizza: it's a lot. It's a bit "flamey" in the oven, but I didn't get a shot of any of the more exciting conflagration, there's not a lot of downtime for photography while making these!

 

The crust comes out nicely, with good pillowy edges, but truth be told I'm not sure it's really much of an improvement over their normal Neapolitan dough, which is certainly easier to work with. Maybe in a few hundred pizzas I'll have a clearer sense of it.