Query about water and roasting bones for stock

[TdeV]

Somewhere I read that one should put a little water in the bottom of the baking pan so that the fat doesn't stick to the pan. I've put in about 1 1/2 cups in a half sheet pan. Will that prevent the soup bones from developing a grilled flavour?

 

Edited to clarify that these bones were on a rack above a sheet pan partly filled with water.

Edited October 12, 2018 by TdeV (log)

[Anna N]

22 minutes ago, TdeV said:

Somewhere I read that one should put a little water in the bottom of the baking pan so that the fat doesn't stick to the pan. I've put in about 1 1/2 cups in a half sheet pan. Will that prevent the soup bones from developing a grilled flavour?

 Water would not have been my choice. Roasting implies dry heat. If I was really concerned about things sticking to the pan I would’ve lined it with nonstick foil. In order to get these bones to roast you are first going to have to drive off one and a half cups of water.  

[pastrygirl]

Yes, I think water would interfere with browning and roasted flavors and you'd have steamed bones instead.  You'll get more browned bits on the sheet pan, but you can de-glaze with water after to loosen them to either add to the stock as flavor or for cleaning.  As for fat sticking to the pan ... hot animal fat is liquid, I'm not sure how it would "stick" - remember we butter or oil so many other foods so they don't stick to the pan!

[TdeV]

Yes, no carmelized fat. I also couldn't move the pans around, so I have poured most of the water off.

 

Edited October 11, 2018 by TdeV
Clarity (log)

[KennethT]

It is sometimes recommended to roast things on a rack above a little water so that the drippings (mostly fat) don't burn on the sheet pan below it.  I don't know how useful it would be for bones since there isn't much meat or fat on them, unless you're roasting a duck or goose carcass, or a really fatty cut of pork.

[TicTac]

I would always roast on a rack if possible, and place root veggies (the longer the roast, the bigger the cut) below to soak up those drippings.  Makes for fantastic soup, gravy, etc.

 

 

[rotuts]

Dry roast.

 

I use brown parchment paper.  its said to be ' organic paper '

 

vs white.   the brown is more non stick

 

fat burning is an issue at higher temps

 

 

[gfweb]

So the consensus is that water in the oven air inhibits browning and roasting? 

 

Maillard is temp dependent and steam conducts heat better, so wouldn't moist air brown better...or at least no worse?

[Anna N]

4 minutes ago, gfweb said:

So the consensus is that water in the oven air inhibits browning and roasting? 

 

Maillard is temp dependent and steam conducts heat better, so wouldn't moist air brown better...or at least no worse?

Roast?  Braise? Stew?   Just saying.

[KennethT]

17 minutes ago, gfweb said:

So the consensus is that water in the oven air inhibits browning and roasting? 

 

Maillard is temp dependent and steam conducts heat better, so wouldn't moist air brown better...or at least no worse?

I agree - I think you can get good browning when roasting above a pan of water.  The water won't be boiling in the oven - hot air in an oven does not have nearly good enough heat transfer capability to have a pan of water boil... it will increase the humidity in the oven though.

 

I recently saw a video online where someone was making Char Siu in a home oven - and the pieces were being roasted on a rack over some water in the pan.  The char siu got nicely browned - it looked perfect.

[Anna N]

I would suspect it does make a difference whether it’s over water or in water. The initial question was about bones in water.

[rotuts]

if its in water :  the water will never get above 212 F

 

if its above water ,  the sky is the limit

 

indeed browning is temp depended , not moisture dependent

 

too me a while to realize this :  steam is not liquid water

 

duh

 

best browned skin Ive ever had was with Chicken thighs in the CSO :  bubbly crisp

 

Im sure brown bones in a commercial combi-oven come out spectacularly on steam-bake

 

and are done quicker due to thermal transfer

 

Id even suggest Char Siu in a combi-oven on steam-back would be better than

 

a dry oven , and better than over water :  all the browning you want , and the meat would stay moist.

[gfweb]

1 hour ago, Anna N said:

I would suspect it does make a difference whether it’s over water or in water. The initial question was about bones in water.

I agree. In-water is braising or stewing. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by gfweb (log)

[KennethT]

1 hour ago, Anna N said:

I would suspect it does make a difference whether it’s over water or in water. The initial question was about bones in water.

Whoops - I misread the OP - I thought the OPer was trying to roast bones and use water in the pan (I assumed the bones were on a rack above the water) to keep the drippings from sticking to the pan...

[TdeV]

The bones were on a rack above the pan, not in the water.

 

The pans were tricky to move, so I removed most of the water. The bones got quite charred, but there wasn't very much water at that point.

 

Edit: I have edited the original post to reflect this.

Edited October 12, 2018 by TdeV
Clarity (log)

[dcarch]

12 hours ago, rotuts said:

too me a while to realize this :  steam is not liquid water

 

Sorry, steam is liquid water. Water vapor (moisture in air) is invisible. If you can see cloud (steam), it is water vapor already condensed into liquid water droplets.

Haha! I am in a nitpicking mood.

 

dcarch

[FeChef]

Late to the party, but you want to flash boil the bones and discard the water, and rinse the bones. Then add them to a pot with other ingredients to make stock. You can skip this step if using a pressure cooker, or apply this step in combination with a pressure cooker if your goal is clear/white stock. Any browning of bones will result in dark stock.

[KennethT]

7 hours ago, FeChef said:

Late to the party, but you want to flash boil the bones and discard the water, and rinse the bones. Then add them to a pot with other ingredients to make stock. You can skip this step if using a pressure cooker, or apply this step in combination with a pressure cooker if your goal is clear/white stock. Any browning of bones will result in dark stock.

Sometimes people want a dark stock.  Beef stocks typically have the bones/veg roasted prior to simmering.  You can also do it for a dark chicken stock.

[FeChef]

On 10/13/2018 at 8:01 AM, KennethT said:

Sometimes people want a dark stock.  Beef stocks typically have the bones/veg roasted prior to simmering.  You can also do it for a dark chicken stock.

I wasn't speaking to people.OP mentioned something along the lines of not wanting grilled flavor which i took as deep roasted.

[KennethT]

Jeez @FeChef - no need to be snippy....  OP was asking if the water would prevent the bones from developing a grilled flavor.  The OP did not say that it was not wanted, just if the water would prevent it.

Edited October 20, 2018 by KennethT (log)