Variation in quality among different types of pasta

[Deryn]

paulraphael - Good point about 'flavour' and dried pasta. While I mentioned that I have used Barilla Plus for years (at least for basic shapes and 'everyday' use as opposed to 'company's coming'), I have done so with the idea that it was more a 'filler' carb and a carrier for a flavourful sauce - and was not expected to be flavourful in itself. I merely like the 'texture' I guess - when it is a bit undercooked ... al dente - because I can't say I think it really has much flavour of its own other than a bit salty perhaps (if I add salt while cooking). I may add only butter or oil and a few herbs and perhaps pepper - may not even add cheese of any kind - but those ingredients add the 'flavour' I don't expect to get from the plain dried pasta. I like only that I have never managed to produce mushy pasta when using Barilla Plus, which is more than I can say for a few other common brands.

 

A dried egg pasta may have a bit more 'flavour' naturally - or perhaps a handmade tomato, spinach or squid ink pasta 'may' have 'flavour' (I have tasted some pretty bland ones) but otherwise, since pasta is basically made from just flour and water, where does 'flavour' in dried pasta originate? Durum/hard wheat flour may be used in all or most of these dried pastas we commonly buy on supermarket shelves ... so maybe it is the water that is different/leads to one having more 'flavour' than the next? I doubt whether the flour is double 00 or not would make much difference, would it?

[nickrey]

I can't say that flavour is one of the things I look for in dried pasta.

 

Instead, the most important thing is texture: both the roughness caused through extrusion through a brass die to which sauce will stick and the al dente nature from gluten in the durum wheat pasta.

 

While I love making pasta from scratch with eggs and flour, it will never replace dried pasta for a number of classic dishes. It simply does not have the structure to support the sauce.

 

I think in non-Italian countries, we mistake the sauce as the hero of the dish. In Italy, it is the opposite. If you get good dried pasta and cook it in an appropriate concentration of salted water, it will be something that you will want to eat either by itself or with a simple drizzle of olive oil and a powdering of parmesan.

 

We've had this discussion on a number of forums previously where the sauce needs to be seen as a condiment to the pasta. Moreover, the sauce needs to be chosen to fit the pasta. Having spaghetti with bolognese sauce just gives a pile of sauce in the bottom of the bowl. If it is served with Tagliatelle, the sauce will cling to the pasta and give a satisfying eating experience.

[paulraphael]

4 hours ago, nickrey said:

I can't say that flavour is one of the things I look for in dried pasta.

 

Instead, the most important thing is texture: both the roughness caused through extrusion through a brass die to which sauce will stick and the al dente nature from gluten in the durum wheat pasta.

 

While I love making pasta from scratch with eggs and flour, it will never replace dried pasta for a number of classic dishes. It simply does not have the structure to support the sauce.

 

I think in non-Italian countries, we mistake the sauce as the hero of the dish. In Italy, it is the opposite. If you get good dried pasta and cook it in an appropriate concentration of salted water, it will be something that you will want to eat either by itself or with a simple drizzle of olive oil and a powdering of parmesan.

 

I think we've been conditioned to not expect flavor from pasta because we've gone our whole lives eating flavorless pasta.

The first times I heard people talk about delicious bread, I had no idea what they were talking about.

 

I'm convinced this is why we think of pasta as kind of neutral substrate for sauce.

 

I'd encourage everyone to mail order a package or two of the Setaro. Cook it and just toss it with a little olive olive oil and black pepper, maybe some fresh parm. 

It should become clear why the Italians think of sauce as a condiment rather than the main event.

[Deryn]

paulraphael - I get what you are saying but if one makes the Setaro and serves it completely plain (without any pepper or oil, etc.) alongside another brand of (again plainly cooked) dried pasta will it 'taste' different?

[shain]

If you want dry pasta to be tasty enough to eat plain, try to toast it before cooking. Even the cooking water are tasty enough to drink (sobayu of sorts, I guess ). Obviously, that's somewhat misses the point, since it's not the same flavor quality being discussed. 

 

On a different matter, does freeze-dried fresh (uncooked) pasta exists? Will the taste and texture be the same? 

Edited May 29, 2016 by shain (log)

[Deryn]

shain - It 'could' exist I am sure - but I am not sure it would hold together well after freeze drying if its sole ingredients were flour and water (plus a bit of salt) since freeze-drying takes out all the water leaving ... flour. Perhaps if one added an egg that would help. I am not near my FD right now or I would see what I could do to find a more definitive answer.

 

I have FD'd both fresh and dried pastas but they were already cooked and there were other ingredients in the mix as well.

[shain]

1 hour ago, Deryn said:

shain - It 'could' exist I am sure - but I am not sure it would hold together well after freeze drying if its sole ingredients were flour and water (plus a bit of salt) since freeze-drying takes out all the water leaving ... flour. Perhaps if one added an egg that would help. I am not near my FD right now or I would see what I could do to find a more definitive answer.

 

I have FD'd both fresh and dried pastas but they were already cooked and there were other ingredients in the mix as well.

 

Interesting thought, I would assume that the gluten "network" will hold after dried. On a second thought, I guess there should be no real difference between regular dried pasta and freeze-dried one. It might be interesting to FD ravioli and other stuffed pasta, where regular drying can't work.

By the way, how does re-hydrated previously cooked and dried pasta compare to freshly cooked pasta?

Edited May 29, 2016 by shain (log)

[Deryn]

shain - Actually I just remembered that I have freeze-dried uncooked (sort of 'fresh') pasta not really 'mixed' with other ingredients (such as in a casserole form) - had forgotten that when my FD was new, I tried freeze-drying some uncooked perogies - and the actual FD'ing worked fine. There were other ingredients but they were only in the filling. Reconstituting was a little more difficult but I was very new to the process at the time so perhaps I would do better now. As I recall, the outer shell (the pasta equivalent part - though technically it may be a bit thicker than a true pasta rolled out - and is probably more a 'dough') got a bit mushy (with a few hard edges as well) by the time the liquid had penetrated sufficiently to rehydrate the filling. Edible but not what I would call a triumphant experiment. If I FD perogies again, I will definitely precook them.

 

Rehydrating a mixed dish that includes unfilled, precooked pasta in some form works great however. Chicken tetrazzini, chili mac or alfredo would be examples. If you want to test that, buy a freeze-dried dinner (there are some by Mountain House or maybe Backpack Camper I believe) that is usually designed for camping or prepping. I don't happen to like all the additives in those 'dinners' but the concept is proven there so part of what I wanted to do with my FD when I bought it was to make my own FD'd dinners without the additives (and/or just be able to freeze dry my own prepared meal leftovers). I would be surprised though if the pasta in the prepared dinners was originally 'fresh'. It is (usually) in smaller pieces (than one might use if freshly made at home) and will rehydrate covered in some kind of 'sauce' so perhaps it is a bit difficult to compare the 'quality' or 'taste' of the actual pasta part to a dish where ingredients are freeze-dried separately and combined after being rehydrated.

 

I will have to test FD'ing fresh pasta, cooked and uncooked, in and separately from other ingredients - with the exception of the filled stuff as noted above. I think there may be a texture disadvantage - a gumminess that may show up when rehydrating a fresh pasta alone from FD state - but I don't know for sure (and whether it is precooked or not may also make a difference). I am not sure I really see much advantage in using fresh vs dried in a mixed dinner to be honest. Pre-dried, off the shelf, pastas actually store well for many years if properly packaged so if there was any worry with the pasta not hydrating at the same rate as the rest of the ingredients, the best idea is usually to store and cook the pasta separately and then combine. However, for 'leftover meals' that is obviously not going to happen - and the pasta included will be precooked obviously.

 

You may also find some useful info on the subject if you visit the HarvestRight site - they have many video clips and suggestions about what you can successfully freeze-dry.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Deryn (log)

[huiray]

On 5/28/2016 at 8:06 PM, paulraphael said:

As far as dry pasta, I don't think any of the brands mentioned here is very good. None has much flavor.

 

Hmm. Have you actually had Cipriani or Rustichella pastas? I think these do very well just as pasta by themselves with some olive oil or some butter (maybe some cheese) as you yourself suggested. Garofalo isn't half-bad in this regard too. They taste quite fine to me, but that is me but perhaps not acceptable to you. Rough bronze dyes are involved in many of these pastas. I'm not sure what the scope is of your statement about the better pastas being extruded from rough bronze dyes - some of these brands that you disparage are extruded from such dyes; perhaps you might explain where their flour mixture (inter alia) or other specs do not meet your criteria of excellence?

[paulraphael]

44 minutes ago, huiray said:

 

Hmm. Have you actually had Cipriani or Rustichella pastas?

 

I haven't, and I apologize for not noticing their names here. I'd only noticed mention of barilla, de Cecco, Ronzoni, and Muellers, which are all pretty flavorless and generic stuff. 

 

 

[shain]

@Deryn Thank you very much for the in depth response. Freeze drying is an amazing technique with vast potential and possibilities, and I'm always glad to read about it.

[huiray]

Here's an old thread on eG that contains commentary spreading over the three pages on Rustichella d'Abruzzo pastas; and the difference between De Cecco pasta in Europe (better) versus in the US (see this post, and downwards from there), plus other interesting stuff as well.

 

(I just picked up a box of De Cecco and a package of R d'A from my larder and confirmed that De Cecco (in the US) is still "fortified pasta" while R d'A (in the US) continues to not be fortified.)

 

ETA: I looked at a box of Cipriani pasta and this too is not fortified, although it uses fresh eggs (not egg powder) in making it.

Edited May 30, 2016 by huiray (log)

[Deryn]

I still have to ask how one can really determine the 'flavour' of a pasta itself without eating it 'naked' (in other words, without even oil or butter or added salt/pepper, etc.)? Won't you be tasting the oil or butter etc.?

 

I can see that using some or all whole grain flour (as opposed to just white) would change/add 'flavour'. Perhaps even bleached/unbleached would make a difference. I can see that adding an egg or powdered egg to the pasta mix would probably change 'flavour'. Maybe 'baking' pasta vs just air drying it - i.e. the heat/process - could add flavour? I can't see that extruding can really add 'flavour' - merely the ability of a pasta to pick up and hold flavour from a sauce or oil, etc.

 

Where is/what is the essence of flavour that distinguishes pastas made by different manufacturers that allegedly contain only the same few simple ingredients - water, flour and salt?

[paulraphael]

Good pasta is flavorful. You won't taste it if it's slathered in marinara sauce, but it definitely makes a difference if you're having a more minimalist preparation. 

 

I have to make a special trip to get the best pasta, and so usually reserve it for dishes where the flavor will shine through. 

 

Think of it like pizza crust. With a good neapolitan pizza, the edges of the crust are often the best part. The part with the sauce and cheese is more like the appetizer.

[nickrey]

The pizza crust is a good analogy. Obviously the basic ingredients have the same flavour. It is more cooked but I think it is the texture that is influencing your experience of flavour.

 

It may be a definitional issue as I strongly suspect we are saying the same thing.

 

How does "If you get good dried pasta and cook it in an appropriate concentration of salted water, it will be something that you will want to eat either by itself [my words]" differ from what you have said?

[Deryn]

I am sorry. I should have perhaps said that my questions were more rhetorical than anything, although the idea that if I were to cook up perhaps 4 or 5 basic (spaghetti) pastas from different manufacturers, side by side, and taste them all without any added ingredients to determine if I (and I stress 'I' because we all have different tastebuds and likes/dislikes) can tell the difference in flavour - not cooked texture - and if so, how I could describe that difference, intrigues me.

 

Sometimes we have too many words in the English language and sometimes too few. I think we overuse perhaps the generic word 'flavour' and as a result, we may not convey exactly what we mean.

[paulraphael]

Good dry pasta tastes nutty and grainy to me. Not too far off from artisan bread or pizza crust.

 

Edited to add ...

 

Why don't you order a package of Setaro, and then you can see if I'm out of my mind or not.

Edited May 31, 2016 by paulraphael (log)

[nickrey]

On 31 May 2016 at 11:48 PM, paulraphael said:

Good dry pasta tastes nutty and grainy to me. Not too far off from artisan bread or pizza crust.

 

Edited to add ...

 

Why don't you order a package of Setaro, and then you can see if I'm out of my mind or not.

 

Sadly I can't seem to find it in Australia.

 

But I suspect that we get a wider range of good quality pasta than many of you can source. I'm really fussy about what I buy; the brand names mentioned above are not even on the radar. Yet the most important thing to me is still the seasoning and cooking. If I do it right, I can eat the pasta by itself -- no sauce, nothing else, and totally enjoy it; overcooking or undersalting makes it less edible.

 

If the dried pasta is proper durum wheat plus water made with a brass die it should be good.

 

My suspicion is that it is similar to the difference between Wonder bread and a loaf that is made with real flour.

[paulraphael]

I don't know what goes into the manufacture of dried pasta. It definitely seems like more than just durum semolina and brass dies, because many brands use those and their products aren't equivalent. Based on the amount of flavor in the good pasta, I'm assuming there's some aging that goes on. The semolina flour itself might be quite variable. And the coarse dies themselves don't seem equivalent. Some of the pastas have much more mountainous, irregular surfaces than others.

[AlaMoi]

I can bake two breads from flour out of the same bucket that one might not say:  it's the same.

 

last night I did mac&cheese from scratch; got distracted and the roux got a smidge overdone aka toasted.

DW raved.  now all I have to do is master my mistake... so - technique & procedure does make a difference in taste.  and why do I get the idea the various pasta makers will not publicize their second-by-second production methods.....

Edited June 4, 2016 by AlaMoi (log)

[ElsieD]

I just had a look at the pasta I am currently using.  The brand is Pasta Vera.  It is produced with durum wheat seminola only grown in Puglia.  On the box it says "Pasta Vera is real traditional pasta produced with only local grain and due to it's density and it's valuable bronze wire cutting,  restrains condiments better than any other."  I buy it at an Italian place.  The people who own the place are from Puglia.  It is tasty stuff.  I also have some of the R D'A, it too is imported from Italy.  I'm lucky here as I lot of Italians immigrated to this neck of the woods after WW II and set up shop here giving us access to some quality products.

[Smithy]

'Restrains condiments', eh? Sounds like a funny translation. I have visions of the pasta rising out of its bowl and shreiking, "Don't bring that catsup bottle near me!" In Italian. 

 

Next time I'm at the right end of town, I'll check our Italian market and see what they carry.

[blue_dolphin]

3 hours ago, Smithy said:

Next time I'm at the right end of town, I'll check our Italian market and see what they carry.

 

It's worth a look-see.  My neighborhood Italian restaurant opened a little market and deli next door and sell the same pasta they use in the restaurant at a very reasonable price - $2.60/500g package.  For that price, it's my go-to pasta, though I enjoy trying other brands and unusual shapes, too.

 

It's Liguori brand, made in Gragnano, near Naples, in Campania and the label touts their use of bronze dies.

 

[ElsieD]

9 hours ago, Smithy said:

'Restrains condiments', eh? Sounds like a funny translation. I have visions of the pasta rising out of its bowl and shreiking, "Don't bring that catsup bottle near me!" In Italian. 

 

Next time I'm at the right end of town, I'll check our Italian market and see what they carry.

 

It does sound a bit strange, doesn't it?  I just checked the box to make sure I had typed it correctly and yes, the pasta will "restrain condiments".

[Anna N]

20 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

 

It does sound a bit strange, doesn't it?  I just checked the box to make sure I had typed it correctly and yes, the pasta will "restrain condiments".

I am guessing it means "will hold on to the sauce".