Home Made Ice Cream (2015– )

[weinoo]

While both recipes turn out fairly sweet ice creams, Dana’s recipe has twice as much whole milk as David’s, and 25% less cream than his.  As well as 1 less egg yolk, so the compensation is the glucose, I think.

Edited August 24, 2020 by weinoo (log)

[ccp900]

3 hours ago, coffeinca said:

HI,

I'm trying to learn about how to make an ice cream from books and websites but sometimes I'm feeling overwhelmed so I decided I will try to ask you. What is your desired relative sweetness? I was making vanilla ice cream from "Hello, my name is ice cream" and I found them super sweet. When David Lebovitz is using 150 g sucrose, here we have 150 g sucrose and 50 g glucose. How I could change it? I'm afraid that if I will use less sugar, the texture wouldn't be the same. Do you have any suggestions? Maybe add some skimmed milk instead of some part of sugar? Or add more dextrose instead? 

Hi my pod is around 11 percent to 12 percent.  You can do some things to control that. A. You can use more dextrose than sucrose since dextrose is 70% as sweet as sucrose Or B. Reduce overall sugar and add vegetable glycerine.  There is another method but it may not be good for kids as well as overall texture of ice cream and that is to use a little alcohol like vodka etc

 

if you do use glycerine, pls be mindful that your overall solids might be low you might want to add some skim milk powder or use fiber to bulk up. You can also increase fat if you want to but just try and not go over 20%

 

you can also just accept that you’ll have a harder than usual ice cream that you can leave on the counter for 5 mins before scooping. This isn’t a bad thing as it also allows your ice cream to resist melting longer

Edited August 24, 2020 by ccp900 (log)

[paulraphael]

16 hours ago, coffeinca said:

HI,

I'm trying to learn about how to make an ice cream from books and websites but sometimes I'm feeling overwhelmed so I decided I will try to ask you. What is your desired relative sweetness? I was making vanilla ice cream from "Hello, my name is ice cream" and I found them super sweet. When David Lebovitz is using 150 g sucrose, here we have 150 g sucrose and 50 g glucose. How I could change it? I'm afraid that if I will use less sugar, the texture wouldn't be the same. Do you have any suggestions? Maybe add some skimmed milk instead of some part of sugar? Or add more dextrose instead? 

 

Welcome to my personal broken-record gripe. I think most ice cream is too sweet. I've got a plenty big sweet tooth, but start complaining when sweetness levels reach a point that they mute other flavors. In a review of ice cream books I recently wrote, Cree's book got top marks but I still complained about sweetness levels. 

 

Same goes for Lebovitz and just about everyone else. 

 

The way to estimate sweetness is to look at the sucrose equivalence. A sucrose equivalence of 15% means it tastes as sweet as 15% table sugar. Alternative sugars like dextrose and fructosse are more or less sweet, so you need to do a bit of math with them. A gram of dextrose is about as sweet as 1.4 gram sucrose. A gram of fructose is about as sweet as 0.5% sucrose. A gram of honey is about as sweet as 0.75g sucrose.

 

Most commercial and professional recipes are around 15% sucrose equivalence (If you're an ice cream techie or an Italian, you can call this a POD of 150—Potere Dolcificante). Many home recipes are sweeter. 

 

I usually prefer a level around 12%, or POD 120. If there are very bitter or sour flavors in the ice cream, you may have to increase this to compensate. I think of ingredients like cocoa powder as having a negative POD. 

 

To your question, adding skim milk powder in place of some of the sucrose is a good start, and you can do this without doing any math, to a point. The lactose in skim milk powder has the same freezing point depression as table sugar, but a very small fraction of the sweetness. It will also promote a smoother, denser texture. 

 

If you go too far, the texture might get denser and chewier than you like. And if you're not using any stabilizers, you could get a sandy texture from lactose crystalizing (coming out of solution). 

 

In that recipe, by glucose, does she mean glucose syrup? This always drives me nuts, because the names aren't standardized. And the contents of glucose syrup aren't standardized either. I'd be inclined to ditch the glucose syrup and just use dextrose, but to make this work predictably you'd have to do a bunch of math. 

 

[paulraphael]

 

14 hours ago, weinoo said:

While both recipes turn out fairly sweet ice creams, Dana’s recipe has twice as much whole milk as David’s, and 25% less cream than his.  As well as 1 less egg yolk, so the compensation is the glucose, I think.

 

 

There are ways to make great lower-fat ice creams without making them sweeter. I don't know why she's pushing the sugar so hard.

[Yiannos]

@paulraphael how much of this do you think is subjective? For example, I used to have maybe a can or two of soda in any given week, but as I grew older for whatever reason it lost it's appeal and now I rarely drink any soda at all. BUT, when I do happen to have the odd Coke, it now tastes almost unbearably sweet to me having not had it on my palate for a long period of time. I wonder if our diets in general skew sweet, there is sugar in everything it seems any more, and the ice cream and dessert recipes of our time reflect that. While I have never been a fan of sickly sweet anything, I have not found much of say Lebovitz's ice cream to be too bad, and I wonder if we are able to tolerate different levels depending on what kind of sweetness is included in our normal eating patterns.

[ccp900]

For the life of me i can’t remember the temperature where eggy taste starts and if you want to minimize sulfur you keep your pasteurization below that temp

[Yiannos]

11 minutes ago, ccp900 said:

For the life of me i can’t remember the temperature where eggy taste starts and if you want to minimize sulfur you keep your pasteurization below that temp

 

I feel like it's 80, but don't quote me on this I am not an expert by any means.

[ccp900]

3 minutes ago, Yiannos said:

 

I feel like it's 80, but don't quote me on this I am not an expert by any means.

I can’t remember and I hate it hehe

[weinoo]

1 hour ago, Yiannos said:

@paulraphael how much of this do you think is subjective? For example, I used to have maybe a can or two of soda in any given week, but as I grew older for whatever reason it lost it's appeal and now I rarely drink any soda at all. BUT, when I do happen to have the odd Coke, it now tastes almost unbearably sweet to me having not had it on my palate for a long period of time. I wonder if our diets in general skew sweet, there is sugar in everything it seems any more, and the ice cream and dessert recipes of our time reflect that. While I have never been a fan of sickly sweet anything, I have not found much of say Lebovitz's ice cream to be too bad, and I wonder if we are able to tolerate different levels depending on what kind of sweetness is included in our normal eating patterns.

 

Considering that we're probably being addicted to this (both sugar AND salt) stuff from the time we start getting fed, not a bad theory.

 

Question for @paulraphael - if  one were to reduce the Cree recipe by, let's say 1/4 cup of sugar, how much glucose syrup (or in my case, corn syrup) would it take to keep the ice cream at the same "texture level" if that is even a term? Or, inlieu of sweetness, would something else make up for it - something like nonfat milk powder, or a gum?

[ccp900]

2 minutes ago, weinoo said:

 

Considering that we're probably being addicted to this (both sugar AND salt) stuff from the time we start getting fed, not a bad theory.

 

Question for @paulraphael - if  one were to reduce the Cree recipe by, let's say 1/4 cup of sugar, how much glucose syrup (or in my case, corn syrup) would it take to keep the ice cream at the same "texture level" if that is even a term? Or, inlieu of sweetness, would something else make up for it - something like nonfat milk powder, or a gum?

I’m not Paul but I hope it’s ok to chime in

 

vegetable glycerine is safe and can be added here because it has a 3.7 Freezing point depression factor so it is double dextrose but it is not sweet if I am not mistaken.  This is the same thing that is added to cakes and cookies to keep them moist 

 

or you can use ethanol or liquor which has a factor of 7.4

 

on your question about removing sugar.

 

need to do some math. Here are the facts. Sugar is 1gram is 1 point sweetness and 1 point anti freeze. Dextrose is 1 gram equals 0.7 sweetness and 1.9 antifreeze.  So if you remove 40g of sugar that’s -40 points sweetness and -40 points antifreeze.  If you add 21 grams of dextrose you then get +14.7 points of sweetness and +39.9 points of antifreeze. So you get the same scoopabiity but you reduced sweetness by 25 points

[weinoo]

1 hour ago, ccp900 said:

I’m not Paul but I hope it’s ok to chime in

 

vegetable glycerine is safe and can be added here because it has a 3.7 Freezing point depression factor so it is double dextrose but it is not sweet if I am not mistaken.  This is the same thing that is added to cakes and cookies to keep them moist 

 

or you can use ethanol or liquor which has a factor of 7.4

 

on your question about removing sugar.

 

need to do some math. Here are the facts. Sugar is 1gram is 1 point sweetness and 1 point anti freeze. Dextrose is 1 gram equals 0.7 sweetness and 1.9 antifreeze.  So if you remove 40g of sugar that’s -40 points sweetness and -40 points antifreeze.  If you add 21 grams of dextrose you then get +14.7 points of sweetness and +39.9 points of antifreeze. So you get the same scoopabiity but you reduced sweetness by 25 points

 

Of course it's ok, but now I have to go to back to school for math. And I don't think I have dextrose - do I?

[paulraphael]

2 hours ago, ccp900 said:

For the life of me i can’t remember the temperature where eggy taste starts and if you want to minimize sulfur you keep your pasteurization below that temp

 

I think it's more complicated than just a temperature. The concentration of egg yolk and the time at temperature seem to be factors. I haven't experimented with this at all because I use little or no egg yolk, and fairly low temps.

[paulraphael]

3 hours ago, Yiannos said:

@paulraphael how much of this do you think is subjective? For example, I used to have maybe a can or two of soda in any given week, but as I grew older for whatever reason it lost it's appeal and now I rarely drink any soda at all. BUT, when I do happen to have the odd Coke, it now tastes almost unbearably sweet to me having not had it on my palate for a long period of time. I wonder if our diets in general skew sweet, there is sugar in everything it seems any more, and the ice cream and dessert recipes of our time reflect that. While I have never been a fan of sickly sweet anything, I have not found much of say Lebovitz's ice cream to be too bad, and I wonder if we are able to tolerate different levels depending on what kind of sweetness is included in our normal eating patterns.

 

I'm sure some of it's subjective. 

 

For me part of the complaint is "this is too sweet!" which is surely subjective. The other part is that I find other flavors getting masked. I think this is a phenomenon more akin to how the right amount of salt makes other flavors pop into focus. Too little salt leaves those flavors feeling flat. I think something similar goes on with sugar in desserts (but in this case with too much), especially with more complex or delicate flavors. 

Edited August 24, 2020 by paulraphael (log)

[coffeinca]

Thank you all for you answers 💛 so I can add more dextrose instead od sucrose. I think that what I will do. Will reduce amount of sugars as well and add around 9 g of skimmed milk powder. But what with pac then ? What is your desired pac number? I have my freezer in around -19 C . If I will make those changes and have less sugars, my relative sweetness would be around 13 and pac 24.5. Is it ok? The more I know, the more chaos I have in my head. 😱

[ccp900]

4 hours ago, paulraphael said:

 

I think it's more complicated than just a temperature. The concentration of egg yolk and the time at temperature seem to be factors. I haven't experimented with this at all because I use little or no egg yolk, and fairly low temps.

Ahhh..thanks Paul. Makes sense on length of time since the thing that creates the sulfur taste is the denaturation of proteins and the longer you cook the more proteins denature.  

[ccp900]

5 hours ago, weinoo said:

 

Of course it's ok, but now I have to go to back to school for math. And I don't think I have dextrose - do I?

Ahh. This is really where having the right ingredients pays in dividends. You really can’t do anything about the scoopability unless you have the right tools

 

a. Dextrose

b. Glycerine

c. Alcohol

there would be others but those 3 are the big hitters in managing scoopability while holding sweetness at bay

 

milk powder isn’t a big helper here. Skim milk powder basically is a bulking agent as well as a good source of protein and lactose. And lactose is more a water controlling agent. It does have sweetness and pac but that is a secondary function more of a bonus trait versus primary function

[paulraphael]

Lactose is one of the most useful, in the form of the skim milk powder (which is really a wonder ingredient). It's 50% lactose by weight. This sugar has the same freezing point depression as sucrose, at about 16% the sweetness. 

 

Atomized glucose can also be useful, although it's not consistent from one brand to the next. It's mostly a naturally occurring blend of dextrose and maltodextrin (and other dextrins). I use it in sorbets, to boost solids without greatly increasing sweetness. 

 

In sorbets, trehalose can take the place of lactose. The properties are very similar, but you can only use it in small quantities.

 

Lots of numbers in the chart on this page. Thanks to your reminder I will add glycerin / glycerol. 

[ccp900]

2 hours ago, paulraphael said:

Lactose is one of the most useful, in the form of the skim milk powder (which is really a wonder ingredient). It's 50% lactose by weight. This sugar has the same freezing point depression as sucrose, at about 16% the sweetness. 

 

Atomized glucose can also be useful, although it's not consistent from one brand to the next. It's mostly a naturally occurring blend of dextrose and maltodextrin (and other dextrins). I use it in sorbets, to boost solids without greatly increasing sweetness. 

 

In sorbets, trehalose can take the place of lactose. The properties are very similar, but you can only use it in small quantities.

 

Lots of numbers in the chart on this page. Thanks to your reminder I will add glycerin / glycerol. 

Paul, how about allulose?  Do you also want to include that in the revised table?

[weinoo]

You guys...

 

I'm already dealing with milk powder, cornstarch, tapioca starch, corn syrup (sorta glucose?), cream cheese non-UHT milk and cream...just tell me how I can make those work better than Dana and Jeni do!

 

By better, I just mean a little less sweet by cutting the table sugar. I really like the ice creams I'm making for texture, mouth feel, etc. I'm not looking to add too much else - okay, I'll get some dextrose (and I think I have xanthum gum).

Edited August 25, 2020 by weinoo (log)

[teonzo]

You should consider the background by the authors too. People like Dana Cree have most of their experience in restaurants. Making ice-cream in a fine dining restaurant is a totally different thing than the other settings. Your ice-creams are not meant to be stand-alone, they are meant as part of plated dessert, so they need to be in balance with the rest. Most of the times the ice-cream is the sweetest component in the dish, the other components are there to contrast it (bitter, acidic, so on). A really sweet ice-cream can be "wrong" as stand-alone but "correct" as part of a plated dessert. Similar considerations for the texture: when you work in a fine dining restaurant you use a Pacojet, not an ice-cream machine, and you pacotize just before service (or to order if you are lucky). With a Pacojet you are always going to get a silky smooth texture, no problems of iciness and so on... unless you totally screw the recipe balance, but you don't reach fine dining levels if you make those simple errors.
These are factors to remember when discussing recipes by people with a background in restaurants.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[weinoo]

7 minutes ago, teonzo said:

These are factors to remember when discussing recipes by people with a background in restaurants.

 

But theoretically, they're writing these books for home cooks, and adjusting recipes accordingly.

 

I mean, they're no sweeter than Lebovitz's (who of course was also a fine dining dessert chef).

[teonzo]

Yup, but once you get used to a type of setting, then it's really hard to adapt to a new setting. This goes back to the discussion about sweetness perception: it's pretty subjective and depends on a person's background. Someone who grew in Turkey will have a much different sweetness perception than someone who grew in China. I notice this with my (non professional) friends: when eating ice-cream with them my comments are really different than theirs, it's almost impossible for me to get out of the restaurant pastry chef shoes.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[ccp900]

47 minutes ago, teonzo said:

Yup, but once you get used to a type of setting, then it's really hard to adapt to a new setting. This goes back to the discussion about sweetness perception: it's pretty subjective and depends on a person's background. Someone who grew in Turkey will have a much different sweetness perception than someone who grew in China. I notice this with my (non professional) friends: when eating ice-cream with them my comments are really different than theirs, it's almost impossible for me to get out of the restaurant pastry chef shoes.

 

 

 

Teo

 

Good point teo

[ccp900]

1 hour ago, weinoo said:

You guys...

 

I'm already dealing with milk powder, cornstarch, tapioca starch, corn syrup (sorta glucose?), cream cheese non-UHT milk and cream...just tell me how I can make those work better than Dana and Jeni do!

 

By better, I just mean a little less sweet by cutting the table sugar. I really like the ice creams I'm making for texture, mouth feel, etc. I'm not looking to add too much else - okay, I'll get some dextrose (and I think I have xanthum gum).

 

Hi weinoo.  If you ask me personally these are the only components that are required to make good ice cream that you can tweak based on your preference.  Milk, cream, sugar, salt, dextrose, skim milk powder.  From there you can then add your flavors.

 

so if you get a basic Dana cree recipe. Which is usually 15% sugar and 5% glucose.  Let’s say that’s 150g sucrose and 50 g glucose.  You can remove 75g sugar so you remove 75 points sweetness and 75 points antifreeze. Replace that with 39 grams of dextrose which will give you 27 points of sweetness and 74 points of antifreeze.  Your net sweetness is now 48 points and pac is 149. Scoopability is almost the same but your sweetness is lowered.

 

then add 40g of skim milk powder which will make up for the lost solids.  This 40g of skim milk powder would be roughly 22g of lactose which gives you additional 22 points of antifreeze and 4 points of sweetness. 
 

I would like to correct myself in an earlier post. Skim milk powder can be a big help I agree with Paul the only problem is that you can only tweak skim milk powder to a certain point or you might end up with gritty ice cream.  Hence why I don’t go to skim milk powder as my initial lever when controlling sweetness.  I always go to the sucrose dextrose ratio for that and if I can’t fix it there then out comes glycerine and inulin but to tell you the truth I’ve never had a problem just with sucrose and dextrose. 
 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by ccp900 (log)

[paulraphael]

22 hours ago, weinoo said:

 

Considering that we're probably being addicted to this (both sugar AND salt) stuff from the time we start getting fed, not a bad theory.

 

Question for @paulraphael - if  one were to reduce the Cree recipe by, let's say 1/4 cup of sugar, how much glucose syrup (or in my case, corn syrup) would it take to keep the ice cream at the same "texture level" if that is even a term? Or, inlieu of sweetness, would something else make up for it - something like nonfat milk powder, or a gum?

 

If you send me the whole recipe (in grams) I can quickly work it out.