Home Made Ice Cream (2015– )

[paulraphael]

8 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

I wish I liked chocolate ice cream.

 

 

Ha. I know people who wish they didn't. Maybe you can work something out.

[mgaretz]

I wish there was a non-dairy (or lactose-free) alternative to the nonfat dried milk.

[paulraphael]

1 hour ago, mgaretz said:

I wish there was a non-dairy (or lactose-free) alternative to the nonfat dried milk.

 

You could probably leave it out of these recipes entirely. There's already such a high level of solids form the chocolate and cocoa. The textural difference should be small.

[LWB]

On 9/26/2018 at 10:33 AM, mgaretz said:

I wish there was a non-dairy (or lactose-free) alternative to the nonfat dried milk.

 

I'm new to ice cream making (and first post here!), but might whey protein and casein protein powders work for you?  They may not technically be non-dairy but protein powders labelled as "isolate" I assume are virtually lactose-free.  My casein powder has 0.5g sugar per 30g and 0g/25g for the whey powder per labels.

 

On this note, paulraphael I've read your blog which is spectacular and maybe you can help.  As implied I've been using unflavored casein and whey isolate powders instead of nonfat dry milk to bring my NFMS content into the 9-10.5% range, cooked sous vide to 167F.  What I'm questioning is the ratio of casein:whey for best texture.  I typically use around 70-80% casein to 20-30% whey to mimic the composition of milk, but wondering if more whey would be better.  I understand whey denatures better than casein under heat, just not sure what the textural trade-offs are between "too much" casein on one end and "too much" whey on the other, if that question makes sense.

[paulraphael]

4 hours ago, LWB said:

As implied I've been using unflavored casein and whey isolate powders instead of nonfat dry milk to bring my NFMS content into the 9-10.5% range, cooked sous vide to 167F.  What I'm questioning is the ratio of casein:whey for best texture.  I typically use around 70-80% casein to 20-30% whey to mimic the composition of milk, but wondering if more whey would be better.  I understand whey denatures better than casein under heat, just not sure what the textural trade-offs are between "too much" casein on one end and "too much" whey on the other, if that question makes sense.

 

These are great questions, and they're way beyond any research I've even skimmed. My personal experience is with plain old skim milk powder. I've written a bit about the functional differences between casein and whey, but when it comes to what the specific effects of monkeying with the ratios, or of denaturing whey proteins to one degree or another, most of this knowledge is probably locked up in the commercial labs at companies like Haagen Dazs and General Foods. 

 

One person you might try contacting is Dr. Cesar Vega, who's one of the world experts on ice cream science. He's on Twitter at @CesarVega76

[LWB]

On 9/27/2018 at 5:51 PM, paulraphael said:

 

These are great questions, and they're way beyond any research I've even skimmed. My personal experience is with plain old skim milk powder. I've written a bit about the functional differences between casein and whey, but when it comes to what the specific effects of monkeying with the ratios, or of denaturing whey proteins to one degree or another, most of this knowledge is probably locked up in the commercial labs at companies like Haagen Dazs and General Foods. 

 

One person you might try contacting is Dr. Cesar Vega, who's one of the world experts on ice cream science. He's on Twitter at @CesarVega76

 

Thanks Paul, I'll keep experimenting and maybe reach out to Dr. Vega and get his thoughts.  I expect the differences to be subtle but the science behind it is still interesting.

 

Another question if you don't mind - I'm having problems generating overrun (using an ICE-70).  Do you have some ideas on inducing more overrun via ingredients or technique?  My recipes are low-fat (6-7% fat, ~10% NFMS, 36-39% TS) and I also use lecithin, LBG and guar in appropriate 0.20-0.30% amounts with otherwise great results.  I recently bought some mono- and diglycerides to experiment with as I read they help with aeration, but my last two batches with them seem to prove the opposite.  I can't rule out other factors but they feel more dense with faster meltdown.  I have tried pre-whipping the base and folding in one meringue'd egg white but have not noticed appreciable differences.  I'd rather add a special ingredient or tweak my technique than add more fat or TS, if possible.  TIA

 

 

[paulraphael]

6 hours ago, LWB said:

Another question if you don't mind - I'm having problems generating overrun (using an ICE-70).  Do you have some ideas on inducing more overrun via ingredients or technique?  My recipes are low-fat (6-7% fat, ~10% NFMS, 36-39% TS) and I also use lecithin, LBG and guar in appropriate 0.20-0.30% amounts with otherwise great results.  I recently bought some mono- and diglycerides to experiment with as I read they help with aeration, but my last two batches with them seem to prove the opposite.  I can't rule out other factors but they feel more dense with faster meltdown.  I have tried pre-whipping the base and folding in one meringue'd egg white but have not noticed appreciable differences.  I'd rather add a special ingredient or tweak my technique than add more fat or TS, if possible.  TIA

 

 

 

My first question is if you're thoroughly chilling the base before spinning it. This makes a huge difference. Consider that much of what you're doing is making whipped cream in the ice cream maker; the milk fat needs to be partially crystallized. 8 hours below 38°F usually does it. Although 6–7% fat is pretty low and probably adds to the challenge.

 

If this doesn't get you anywhere, you could try skipping the lecithin and glycerides and using polysorbate-80 at 0.02% to 0.04%. I haven't used this stuff, but its reputation as emulsifier is that it's especially effective at improving foam structure. A jar of this would last close to a lifetime.

 

Does the ICE-70 tend to produce dense ice cream? If it's a slow spinning machine that favors low overrun, and you're going for a very low fat recipe, this could be challenging.

[LWB]

Thanks again - I always cook my bases at night and churn the next evening, so they're chilled for at least overnight and most of the next day.  I'll look into polysorbate-80.

 

The ICE-70 spins at 62 rpm according to Ruben's review which I assume is not unordinary.  More likely my base is the main culprit - I've been very pleased with my texture results overall, but more overrun will be an improvement.

[JoaoBertinatti]

Hey, I live in Brazil where science food is very much behind you guys, and government hinders imports doubling price with taxes so It's kinda hard to get little ammounts of stabilizers; yet I mannaged to paulraphael carragen forms. Anyway, I live in the southest state and we are large milk producers, here they make zero lactose fatfull powdered milk using lactase and using MVR process(low temp), beeing in this underdeveloped country and having it, I can't accept that you can't find zero lac powdered in your country. 

My question would be exactly about the milk MVR process( I really don't know who to ask); do you think it makes the proteins denatured? Could I make cheese using this kind of milk (the cheeseses that UHT does not work)?

Anyways, from my experiences, I like to put my custard base in a big 1.5L glass heat in microwave to at least 50ºC then sous vide for 1 hour at 80ºC, because I don't like the to see leftovers in bags and to simplify the mixing mess process, using a hand mixer before/after and after fridge in the same pot.

I love experimentating dulce de leche sous vide using sweet condensed milk (i make mine using milk powder and half usual sugar)few hours(8 for normal milk?) at 80-82º in pot/plastic bag. And I tried doing it with zero lac milk powder. it's incredible that as the lactose is already broken in galactose+dextrose when you cook, in half the time, like 4 hours, you already have dulce de leche, I don't understand much about maillard  reaction anyways, even though i'm a physician as maillard

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

@JoaoBertinatti was your question specifically about lactose free ice cream?  If so I am afraid I have nothing to contribute.  But I have recently tasted some excellent commercially made ice cream that does not use gums nor stabilizers:

 

https://forums.egullet.org/topic/72119-americas-favorite-ice-cream-guess/?do=findComment&comment=2175368

 

I have tried MVR milk for ice cream as reported earlier in this thread; however I went back to concentrating the milk for the ice cream base while pasteurizing.  In the US or at least in this part of the US, MVR milk (as I understand the term) with reduced lactose is available in grocery stores.

 

Thankfully I am blessed with good ice cream genetics and lactose is not an issue for me.

 

 

[ccp900]

On 10/3/2018 at 12:56 AM, LWB said:

Thanks again - I always cook my bases at night and churn the next evening, so they're chilled for at least overnight and most of the next day.  I'll look into polysorbate-80.

 

The ICE-70 spins at 62 rpm according to Ruben's review which I assume is not unordinary.  More likely my base is the main culprit - I've been very pleased with my texture results overall, but more overrun will be an improvement.

 

your machine might just not be strong enough to whip in more air. Commercial batch freezers have beaters that go more than twice faster and continous freezers have air pumps.  You just have to accept what our lowly home machines can do. 

 

You can pre-whip the base if you want just like making a whipped cream after chilling the base as much as you can try using an immersion blender to get some air in there - or maybe a kitchen aid style mixer and then when youre happy transfer to the cuisinart.  Note though that your base is going to get warmer during this time.

[ccp900]

On 9/26/2018 at 11:33 PM, mgaretz said:

I wish there was a non-dairy (or lactose-free) alternative to the nonfat dried milk.

 

if youre not after the proteins, maybe you can use maltodextrin and/or inulin

[ccp900]

Does anyone have any information around how many grams of water the different stabilizers can absorb per gram of the gum?

 

I tried googling but cant seem to get any leads

 

Thanks

 

[LWB]

On 11/8/2018 at 11:05 AM, ccp900 said:

 

your machine might just not be strong enough to whip in more air. Commercial batch freezers have beaters that go more than twice faster and continous freezers have air pumps.  You just have to accept what our lowly home machines can do. 

 

You can pre-whip the base if you want just like making a whipped cream after chilling the base as much as you can try using an immersion blender to get some air in there - or maybe a kitchen aid style mixer and then when youre happy transfer to the cuisinart.  Note though that your base is going to get warmer during this time.

 

Yeah I've accepted that the home machine will never achieve commercial overrun, however I am pretty certain from observation that my batches have literally 0% overrun, which suggests something in my base is preventing aeration.  1000g of churned base does not even fill up two pint boxes.  Pre-whipping and polysorbate-80 has made no difference either.  I am thinking the chemistry of the stabilizer (LBG, guar, lambda @ 4:2:1 ratio & 0.20-0.30% of base mass) or protein blends is gelling or doing something funky.  I will try reducing both and increasing fat to see if that does anything.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

And here all these years I have been trying to reduce my overrun.  Seriously, with your Cuisinart you should be getting plenty of overrun.  More than enough.  If you whip your mix before churning that likely would reduce your overrun (though not the amount of air in the finished ice cream).  I once had a KitchenAid (as I remember) that allowed for overrun adjustment by means of a horizontal churning chamber.  My current Cuisinart ICE-100 allows some overrun adjustment by the choice of two different paddles, one for more overrun, the other for less.

 

If you would, measure your overrun and report back.

 

https://www.uoguelph.ca/foodscience/book-page/developing-overrun-table-use-when-manufacturing-ice-cream

 

[Lisa Shock]

@LWB would you mind posting your formula? It would help us to know what exactly you're using and in what amounts. No need to post the procedure, just the ingredients and their measure. I also use the Cuisinart ICE-100 for small batches at home and it works fine. (my only regret is that it won't hold more)

[ccp900]

On 11/19/2018 at 4:51 AM, LWB said:

 

Yeah I've accepted that the home machine will never achieve commercial overrun, however I am pretty certain from observation that my batches have literally 0% overrun, which suggests something in my base is preventing aeration.  1000g of churned base does not even fill up two pint boxes.  Pre-whipping and polysorbate-80 has made no difference either.  I am thinking the chemistry of the stabilizer (LBG, guar, lambda @ 4:2:1 ratio & 0.20-0.30% of base mass) or protein blends is gelling or doing something funky.  I will try reducing both and increasing fat to see if that does anything.

im no expert so take my suggestions with a grain of salt hehe.  Here are my ramblings

 

1) Protein helps with aeration - it helps in incorporating air but isnt great in holding them (which fat should help as well as stabilizers and emulsifiers) - make sure you have enough milk proteins casein and whey.  take note of lactose levels though it could lead to sandiness

2) Having a mix that is too viscous pre churn will lead to smaller ice crystals BUT will hinder air incorporation - check that you arent adding too much elements that lead to increased viscosity namely stabilizers as well as thick syrups like invert sugar and glucose syrups

3) having too much solids will also hinder air incorporation as it leads to increased viscosity

 

i think you can expect overrun in the 8-12% region - just by eyeballing it - i havent really measured - i have an ICE-100

 

 

[ccp900]

Hi guys. Short question

 

If cocoa powder breaks down above 90C for full flavor to be released and break down the powder and you want to make a custard based ice cream.  How would you go about pasteurizing it without curdling the eggs? (using a pasteurizer)

 

I cant think of any way so the choices seem to be

1) Pasteurize at 85C and just live with it (or 75C / 65C whatever your pasteurization method is)

2) Totally skip the eggs (which i actually like with chocolate bases) and go Philly

3) Use melted chocolate instead of powder (i am not a fan of this as the chocolate flavor is enhanced greatly by the cocoa)

4) You can technically say bring it up to 90C then back down to a safer temp and mix in tempered yolks but i think thats too much work and i dont think thats possible with the automated pasteurizers

 

AHA i just thought of 1 more

 

5) make a separate chocolate paste and add it to the base before churning

 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by ccp900 (log)

[paulraphael]

On 11/14/2018 at 5:59 AM, ccp900 said:

Does anyone have any information around how many grams of water the different stabilizers can absorb per gram of the gum?

 

I tried googling but cant seem to get any leads

 

Thanks

 

 

There won't be data on that because it's not how stabilizers work. They form a loose (or tight) network in suspension in the water, which slows the motion of water molecules past one another. They increase the viscosity and change other rheological properties of the water, but don't technically absorb it. 

 

So there's no absolute formula. You have figure out the concentration of gums based on empirical observation ... your own or someone else's. It gets a bit complicated with blends, because all gums are synergistic to one degree or another. Using two gums will have a stronger effect than an equal amount of either one. And sometimes the synergy will radically change the behavior (by creating a gel, for example). 

 

I always suggest starting with stabilizer formulas that have already been tested (which it looks like you're doing). You can tweak to get the specific textures and other qualities you're looking for. 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by paulraphael (log)

[paulraphael]

On 11/18/2018 at 8:34 PM, Lisa Shock said:

@LWB would you mind posting your formula? It would help us to know what exactly you're using and in what amounts.

 

This. Your machine should be giving you some overrun unless there's something really funky with the basic formula. I doubt this has to do with process or with stabilizers. 

[LWB]

Sorry for taking a while to respond guys, I appreciate all your help!  It's great to get so granular here.

 

@Lisa Shock @paulraphael Here is the latest base I've been using.  All my bases are variations of the following with some tweaks for flavorings, the %s of ingredients are roughly the same.

100g - Heavy Cream

300g - 2% Milk

20g - Whey and casein protein powders (50/50 ratio, 10g each)

10g - Flavorings (sometimes a little molasses, vanilla/other extracts, cinnamon, or other flavor powders, etc.)

80g - Sugar blend (40g sugar, 20g stevia/erythritol blend, 15g polydextrose, 5g vegetable glycerin)

17g - 1 egg yolk (optional, I often go egg-less and haven't noticed any difference in texture)

2g - Salt

1g - Stabilizer blend (4:2:1 ratio of LBG, guar, lambda carrageenan).  (~0.20% of the base by weight.)

0.20g - Polysorbate-80 (0.04% of the base by weight.)

This produces a mix of 8-9% fat / 9-10% NFMS / 18-19% other solids (incl. 16% sugars) / 36-37% total solids.  All %s within the recommendations I've seen.  Wet and dry are mixed separately, blended, sous vide cooked at 167F for 1 hour, re-blended and aged in the 37F fridge for typically ~24 hrs (overnight then churned next evening).  I'm certain this produces 0% overrun because measured volume before and after churning is the same (in fact less after due to some losses from transferring containers).  I know my bases are lower fat, but I should get something here.  On the plus side, I have the flavors and freezing point suppression right where I want them, and I don't taste any ice crystals, so that's great! 😆

 

@ccp900 Your comments are helpful, thank you.  Some of my random observations on aeration and viscosity.  After first blending the base there is typically good aeration - sometimes I have difficulty submerging the bag in the sous vide because of this.  After the mix cooks, it is slightly more viscous and blends into a beautiful-looking emulsion but with zero aeration.  After the cooling/aging it gains more viscosity, but is still pourable.  The difference in aeration pre- and post-cooking is what made me think the LBG is the culprit, since the cooking activates it.  I am starting to think the protein denaturing and its effects on viscosity has a large impact as well.  Going forward I will try reducing the stabilizers and proteins to lower viscosity and see what effects that has.  It might gain some iciness but if it gives me more overrun I'll be super happy.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by LWB (log)

[ccp900]

On 12/7/2018 at 3:00 AM, paulraphael said:

 

This. Your machine should be giving you some overrun unless there's something really funky with the basic formula. I doubt this has to do with process or with stabilizers. 

Thanks Paul!!

[ccp900]

On 12/13/2018 at 3:14 AM, LWB said:

Sorry for taking a while to respond guys, I appreciate all your help!  It's great to get so granular here.

 

@Lisa Shock @paulraphael Here is the latest base I've been using.  All my bases are variations of the following with some tweaks for flavorings, the %s of ingredients are roughly the same.

100g - Heavy Cream

300g - 2% Milk

20g - Whey and casein protein powders (50/50 ratio, 10g each)

10g - Flavorings (sometimes a little molasses, vanilla/other extracts, cinnamon, or other flavor powders, etc.)

80g - Sugar blend (40g sugar, 20g stevia/erythritol blend, 15g polydextrose, 5g vegetable glycerin)

17g - 1 egg yolk (optional, I often go egg-less and haven't noticed any difference in texture)

2g - Salt

1g - Stabilizer blend (4:2:1 ratio of LBG, guar, lambda carrageenan).  (~0.20% of the base by weight.)

0.20g - Polysorbate-80 (0.04% of the base by weight.)

This produces a mix of 8-9% fat / 9-10% NFMS / 18-19% other solids (incl. 16% sugars) / 36-37% total solids.  All %s within the recommendations I've seen.  Wet and dry are mixed separately, blended, sous vide cooked at 167F for 1 hour, re-blended and aged in the 37F fridge for typically ~24 hrs (overnight then churned next evening).  I'm certain this produces 0% overrun because measured volume before and after churning is the same (in fact less after due to some losses from transferring containers).  I know my bases are lower fat, but I should get something here.  On the plus side, I have the flavors and freezing point suppression right where I want them, and I don't taste any ice crystals, so that's great! 😆

 

@ccp900 Your comments are helpful, thank you.  Some of my random observations on aeration and viscosity.  After first blending the base there is typically good aeration - sometimes I have difficulty submerging the bag in the sous vide because of this.  After the mix cooks, it is slightly more viscous and blends into a beautiful-looking emulsion but with zero aeration.  After the cooling/aging it gains more viscosity, but is still pourable.  The difference in aeration pre- and post-cooking is what made me think the LBG is the culprit, since the cooking activates it.  I am starting to think the protein denaturing and its effects on viscosity has a large impact as well.  Going forward I will try reducing the stabilizers and proteins to lower viscosity and see what effects that has.  It might gain some iciness but if it gives me more overrun I'll be super happy.

 

 

 

 

 

For commercial blends of Stablizers/Emulsifiers - isnt it usually around 2g Stabilizer to 3g Emulsifier? maybe you can up the polysorbate 80?  How about adding mono and di-glycerides?

 

That being said, my old formulation i only used tapioca starch at 5% and no real emulsifiers and still managed to get some overrun.  I now use a commercial blend so i get better results.

 

As an experiment, can you try and remove the stabilizer blend and use just tapioca starch at 3-5%?  Add some milk to the tapioca starch to make a slurry then add the slurry to the base after you cook it and before chilling in the ice bath.

 

maybe you have a bad batch on your stab/emul?

 

 

 

[paulraphael]

I'm just looking quickly at your formula and don't see anything obviously wrong. Just a couple of quick observations ...

 

- You're down below 8% milk fat. This isn't crazy; it's within the range of a lot of Italian gelato. But it's low, and it's the fat that makes the foam structure.

- There's a whole lot of complication going on with your blends of sweetening ingredients, including things like polydextrose and glycerin, which I don't know anything about.

There's a possibility that something in there is interfering with foam structure, either by preventing the the emulsifiers from de-emulsifying the fat globules, or by interfering with the partial coalescence, or by who-knows-what.

-I didn't do the math, but total solids looks low. The recipe would benefit from a bunch of nonfat milk powder. This would let you reduce or get rid of the protein powder, because milk powder is full of whey and casein. 

 

I really doubt the problem is with the stabilizers or emulsifiers. That part of the formula looks completely standard and should work fine. 

 

My suggestion would be to make a batch of really basic ice cream. 50/50 cream and whole milk, around 4% egg yolk, enough milk powder to bring total solids to 40%, and ordinary sugars ... try something like 8% sucrose, 3% dextrose. Cook it 75–80°C for 30 to 60 minutes. Flavor it with something that won't mess with the structure. Vanilla, or matcha powder, or herbs. 

 

If this won't whip up, then the problem's with your machine. If it whips up fine, then you'll need to figure out which of those variables is causing the problem. I'd start by testing the fats and solids levels. And if those aren't the problem, then start trying out the other ingredients. 

 

 

[LWB]

Happy new year everyone, hope y'all are well.

 

I greatly appreciate all the comments to my overrun issue.  Recently made a breakthrough and am pretty sure I figured out the problem: too much protein.

 

Being a protein junky, it didn't occur to me that mixing at double the standard protein content of ice cream (8-9% vs 4%) would be a problem, provided I compensated for freezing point suppression.  After re-reading some of Ruben's and your blog posts, the research suggests that proteins bind to fat, and excessive protein (especially whey) over-stabilizes the emulsion, preventing partial coalescence and therefore overrun.

 

Curious, I did a trial run with my usual routine but at 10% fat / 4% protein / 23% other solids and viola, overrun achieved.  I didn't measure it, but 900g of starting base produced over a liter of churned product and the taste/texture has been awesome even many days later.  I'll continue to experiment, but am very happy to report the improvement.  Thanks to all for the input.