Stainless Steel Mixed with Aluminum?

[Shel_B]

Someone in another discussion claimed that some older stainless steel cookware, specifically bowls in this instance, was made with a mixture of aluminum and stainless steel.  The comment can be found HERE.  The person making the comment cannot or will not substantiate the claim, and I'm wondering about its validity.  Has aluminum been mixed with stainless steel to make cookware?  Can anyone substantiate or disprove this? 

 

Can aluminum even be successfully mixed with stainless steel?  What would happen to the properties of a stainless bowl mixed with aluminum?

 

Thanks!

 

[Mjx]

http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21642107-alloy-iron-and-aluminium-good-titanium-tenth

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/news/a13919/new-steel-alloy-titanium/

[Porthos]

http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21642107-alloy-iron-and-aluminium-good-titanium-tenth

 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/news/a13919/new-steel-alloy-titanium/

From these 2 articles I gather that aluminum-steel alloys probably didn't exist 40 years ago.

[Shel_B]

From these 2 articles I gather that aluminum-steel alloys probably didn't exist 40 years ago.

 

Nor do they have anything to do with cookware.  Nor did I see either article mention mixing stainless steel with aluminum.

[boilsover]

Someone in another discussion claimed that some older stainless steel cookware, specifically bowls in this instance, was made with a mixture of aluminum and stainless steel.  The comment can be found HERE.  The person making the comment cannot or will not substantiate the claim, and I'm wondering about its validity.  Has aluminum been mixed with stainless steel to make cookware?  Can anyone substantiate or disprove this? 

 

Can aluminum even be successfully mixed with stainless steel?  What would happen to the properties of a stainless bowl mixed with aluminum?

 

Thanks!

As, Mjx has cited, yes, it can be done.  But to my knowledge, no one's done cookware with it.  It is not only new, but brings with it corrosion complications.  And unless its thermal properties approach or exceed those of aluminum, why would anyone do it?

[Kerry Beal]

Perhaps this? But it's from google and therefore might not be trustworthy.

[Shel_B]

Perhaps this? But it's from google and therefore might not be trustworthy.

 

No ... according to the site in your link, they made layered cookware, like All-Clad, and now they make 100% SS cookware.  No mention of blending aluminum with stainless steel.

[Shel_B]

As, Mjx has cited, yes, it can be done.  But to my knowledge, no one's done cookware with it.  It is not only new, but brings with it corrosion complications.  And unless its thermal properties approach or exceed those of aluminum, why would anyone do it?

 

I saw no mention of aluminum being blended or mixed with stainless steel (creating what I understand to be an alloy) in either of the links.  It's not a matter of if it can be done, although that's definitely a consideration, but if it has been done.

[Kerry Beal]

http://amg-v.com/aluminumpage.html

[paulraphael]

Even if you did make such a mix (which would be a type of steel alloyed with some amount of aluminum), you couldn't necessarily predict anything about its thermal properties. Metals don't just mix together like sweet and salty.

 

As a thought experiment, if you were to just split the difference ... say, an alloy that's half as conductive as aluminum and half as corrosion resistant as stainless steel ... you'd be describing a pretty crappy cookware material. Clad and bonded structures are what give you the best of both worlds.

[Kerry Beal]

Even if you did make such a mix (which would be a type of steel alloyed with some amount of aluminum), you couldn't necessarily predict anything about its thermal properties. Metals don't just mix together like sweet and salty.

 

As a thought experiment, if you were to just split the difference ... say, an alloy that's half as conductive as aluminum and half as corrosion resistant as stainless steel ... you'd be describing a pretty crappy cookware material. Clad and bonded structures are what give you the best of both worlds.

Of course! But that's not what Shel is asking as I'm sure he'll tell us very soon.

[Shel_B]

Since this discussion is veering off into building materials, automotive stampings, and the arcane, and is drifting further and further from whether or not aluminum was used in stainless steel bowls made by West Bend (perhaps the way I phrased my original question has contributed to this), I decided to contact the company directly and see what they have to say about the subject.  Frankly, I don't expect much in the way of a reply, but it's worth a shot.

 

In addition, I contacted my uncle who has designed and invented cookware during his career, working at one time for Farberware who made a bowl similar to the one in question.  I'll let you know what he has to say about using aluminum in stainless steel mixing bowls.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Shel_B (log)

[paulraphael]

Of course! But that's not what Shel is asking as I'm sure he'll tell us very soon.

 

Ah, ok. Then a different answer: "stainless steel" is really a gigantic family of alloys. Just about any steel with at least 10.5% chromium can be called stainless. 

 

Many stainless steels are of little use in cookware (including the ones used in knives). And it's easy to imagine stainless steels that would be worse. No idea about stainless alloys that contain aluminum, and if they exist how soluble the aluminum is in typical foods.

 

The best solution is to stick with stainless alloys you have reason to believe are appropriate. Anything marketed as 18-8 or 18-10 (these are likewise families of alloys and not specific alloys) is probably fine. Some "official" names of alloys to look for include type 302, 304, and 316.

[Edward J]

I don't understand the logic of an aluminum mixing bowl, or even an aluminum alloy.

Mixing bowls are best used for, well, mixing. I have only attempted to whip chilled cream in an aluminim bowl once, my result was a grey substance flocked with tiny metallic flakes.....

[Shel_B]

Since this discussion is veering off into building materials, automotive stampings, and the arcane, and is drifting further and further from whether or not aluminum was used in stainless steel bowls made by West Bend (perhaps the way I phrased my original question has contributed to this), I decided to contact the company directly and see what they have to say about the subject.  Frankly, I don't expect much in the way of a reply, but it's worth a shot.

 

In addition, I contacted my uncle who has designed and invented cookware during his career, working at one time for Farberware who made a bowl similar to the one in question.  I'll let you know what he has to say about using aluminum in stainless steel mixing bowls.

 

From the Company:

 

Dear Shel -

Thank you for contacting us about your whip and grip bowls.

This item was made of Stainless Steel.

You can also reach our Customer Care Department at 1-866-290-1851 Monday through Thursday 8am-4:30pm

or Friday 8:30am to 4pm CST.

 

Sincerely,

Jennifer

Customer Care - Ext. 2314

Focus Electrics Group Intl. LLC

866-290-1851

 

[Deryn]

Now I am really confused. I thought the question posed in this thread was "Can aluminum even be successfully mixed with stainless steel?  What would happen to the properties of a stainless bowl mixed with aluminum?" (per your first post).

 

How does the reply to your query of Westbend answer those questions?

[Shel_B]

Since this discussion is veering off into building materials, automotive stampings, and the arcane, and is drifting further and further from whether or not aluminum was used in stainless steel bowls made by West Bend (perhaps the way I phrased my original question has contributed to this), I decided to contact the company directly and see what they have to say about the subject.  Frankly, I don't expect much in the way of a reply, but it's worth a shot.

 

In addition, I contacted my uncle who has designed and invented cookware during his career, working at one time for Farberware who made a bowl similar to the one in question.  I'll let you know what he has to say about using aluminum in stainless steel mixing bowls.

 

From my uncle, the engineer and inventor who worked for Farberware. I edited out some personal comments.

 

Hi Shel,

 

Good to hear from you. [...]  We had a stainless bowl @ Farberware.   Don’t think I ever heard of aluminum mixed with stainless.

[Shel_B]

Now I am really confused. I thought the question posed in this thread was "Can aluminum even be successfully mixed with stainless steel?  What would happen to the properties of a stainless bowl mixed with aluminum?" (per your first post).

 

How does the reply to your query of Westbend answer those questions?

 

You seemingly missed a post or two, including my comment that I may have contributed to some confusion by how I phrased my original question.  In any case, the intent was to determine if and how aluminum could be mixed with stainless in a mixing bowl, and to determine if it was done in the West Bend bowl that I referenced, as someone suggested it may have.

[Deryn]

It is not inconceivable that a mixing bowl could have been made that included both stainless steel and aluminum - although I have not yet found a manufacturer of same. I think the chances are though, that if they were produced, they were clad, not mixed, metals.

 

Here is my logic:

 

1) Mixing bowls can be used (if made of oven/heatproof materials) for baking cakes. Ehow tells us 'how': http://www.ehow.com/how_7744382_bake-stainless-steel-bowls.html. I have done this myself when trying to make things like 'doll cakes' without a proper mold.

 

2) Stainless clad aluminum cookware exists - because it was a good combination engineering-wise for conducting heat via the aluminum core while protecting contents from the more problematic 'features' of aluminum with the use of stainless as cladding (http://www.cookingforengineers.com/article/120/Common-Materials-of-Cookware).

 

3) Revere made metal mixing bowls, and went through many phases where they used an aluminum/stainless combo and their history in the cookware industry is very, very long and their products varied greatly over time http://www.revereware.org/info/id10.html. I would expect this particular company (and maybe others) may have at one time experimented with mixing bowl construction as well as with their other cookware lines.

 

On the other hand, I have no doubt that the particular one that you have been enquiring about is not a stainless/aluminum combo. However, I also do not fault someone who, given the age of that bowl and its appearance in the picture, might have questioned its composition. See this whole page of vintage ebay aluminum mixing bowls - the veneer appears very similar - http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=aluminum+mixing+bowl. As we know, copper clad or tin lined surfaces can be eroded over time so it seems possible to me that a bowl that was aluminum on the outside or was clad completely in stainless might also have eroded somewhat if used extensively for many years - producing that 'patina' which could be easily mistaken for aluminum. Obviously the finish on your bowl has 'faded' over time too.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Deryn (log)

[Mjx]

. . . . Can aluminum even be successfully mixed with stainless steel?  What would happen to the properties of a stainless bowl mixed with aluminum?

 

There are many forms of stainless steel, and some of them contain aluminium. Apparently, these alloys are designed with increased the strength in mind, which seems to have minimal utility in your average kitchen. I'm sure your local library has works that can fill in the details.

[pbear]

In the interest of completeness, it might be worth mentioning that there's such a thing as aluminized steel, which is frequently used in bakeware.  Note this is a coating, not an alloy, nor is it used AFAICT for mixing bowls.  And it's used for ordinary steel, not stainless, as an alternate strategy for corrosion resistance.  Still, I suspect this may have been what cakewalk was channeling (subconsciously) when s/he made the original comment.  It's a common cookware product where steel and aluminum appear together.  And I only learned what I just mentioned when I looked it up to post in the thread.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

In the interest of completeness, it might be worth mentioning that there's such a thing as aluminized steel, which is frequently used in bakeware.  Note this is a coating, not an alloy, nor is it used AFAICT for mixing bowls.  And it's used for ordinary steel, not stainless, as an alternate strategy for corrosion resistance.  Still, I suspect this may have been what cakewalk was channeling (subconsciously) when s/he made the original comment.  It's a common cookware product where steel and aluminum appear together.  And I only learned what I just mentioned when I looked it up to post in the thread.

 

My Chicago Metallic sheet pans are aluminized steel.  I used one tonight.  Not to be confused with a mixing bowl.

[andiesenji]

I got in touch with my "cousin" (my stepfather's nephew-and were in the same class in high school) who worked for West Bend co from 1961 to 2006 (four years after it was acquired by Regal Ware in 2002).  He retired after 45 years at the same plant - starting on the polishing machines and ended as a master machinist and floor manager.

I emailed him a picture of the bowl and he wrote that the 1970s bowls (there was also a smaller one - he thinks it was 1 1/2 quart) was made in both stainless steel and polished aluminum - the latter a cheaper version of the SS bowls.  The aluminum was not a popular item and was discontinued - the handles had a tendency to pop off.  As he recalls they were only in production for a year.

The earliest ones had measurements in cups and quarts only, after 1978 they added metric measurements on the opposite side.

The line was discontinued in 1980 as it was not profitable - the aluminum division was expanding the anodized stuff and dropping much of the plain.

If it is stainless steel it will have that designation on the bottom.

They did not "mix" aluminum with stainless steel in the line of kitchen items such as canisters, cake carriers, trays, either bare or anodized or "service items" like this bowl or the measuring cups that were combined with it for sales. (The measuring cups had flat handles so they could nest).   It was either one or the other.  When new the polished aluminum looked like stainless steel but with use the shiny surface rapidly wore off.

 

Some of the cookware had an aluminum "core" to facilitate heat transfer.  Now they call it "tri-ply"

 

And it is still all MADE IN WEST BEND and KEWASKUM in Wisconsin.  RegalWare, Lifetime, Masterclad, Royal Queen and Saladmaster. 

Edited August 2, 2015 by andiesenji (log)

[Deryn]

Great investigative work, Andi!

 

So Shel, does the bowl have the SS designation on the bottom?

[andiesenji]

Addendum to my previous post.
I had another chat with Joel - yesterday we spoke for more than two hours - have not been in touch for fifteen years so a lot of catching up was needed so we chatted today for another hour.
He noted that the mixing  bowls came in two sizes, the 3-quart and a smaller one that was about half the size.
The reason the aluminum ones were discontinued (along with several other product lines in 1980) was that the handles "popped off" and the problem was the welding machines that did the "spot" welds.  Not only did the handles separate, they took part of the bowl with them so that there were 2 HOLES in the sides of the bowls, rendering them useless.   Many were returned to the factory directly from consumers or from retailers that got them back from customers.  In any event it was a failed line.  He believes they were only distributed in a limited area (midwest) at dime stores and drug store that carried general merchandise, while the stainless steel line was distributed nation wide at department stores and the then big box stores like Gemco.
Both were sold in a set with the two sizes of mixing bowls, a set of 4 measuring cups and a set of measuring spoons and a utility scoop.  His wife used to have the full set of the SS but she is not sure she can lay hands on it but if so, he will take some photos and email them to me.  
West Bend employees got to take "seconds" that didn't make it through the inspection process for "pennies" so most were able to furnish their kitchens for a tiny fraction of the wholesale price - not to mention the retail.

 

A lot of the West Bend stuff that I have been selling on ebay came to me during the '60s and '70s from Joel and early on from my sister, who worked for West Bend during the early '60s, and one of Joel's sisters who also worked as a sentographer in the design section until the late '70s. 

Edited August 3, 2015 by andiesenji (log)