Is an interest in food in the UK, "elitist"?

[macrosan]

I'm not happy about the definition of "elitist" as "believing the elite should lead" that the Prof proffers. I think that, at least in common parlance, an elitist is one who claims intrinsic superiority over others. That is superiority of knowledge, of intellect, of means, and of lifestyle.

Now if that is so, then I think the answer to Adam's question is "no". Interest in food may well be considered quirky (as Miss J suggests) but I'm not convinced that is so in Britain any more. The widespread presence of food-related TV programmes, magazines, sections of newspapers and so on, suggest that interest in food has become commonplace.

Adam's later suggestion that his interest in a commodity that he can't afford is also no elitist. Very many people who love opera cannot afford to see it regularly. Same is true of interest in antiques, and so on. "An interest" is firstly an intellectual pastime, and a person's particular interest rarely says anything more about them except that they have the interest.

[g.johnson]

I'm not happy about the definition of "elitist" as "believing the elite should lead" that the Prof proffers. I think that, at least in common parlance, an elitist is one who claims intrinsic superiority over others. That is superiority of knowledge, of intellect, of means, and of lifestyle.

Now I'm going to have to beat you about the head with the OED:

Elitism: Advocacy of or reliance on the leadership and dominance of an élite (in a society, or in any body or class of persons). Hence élitist n. and a.

[cabrales]

Amongst those who see themselves as interested in food, I would consider some to be elitist - for example those who cannot countenance the fact that food from beyond the boundaries of Europe can be taken seriously.

With all due respect to restaurants, and with a very few exceptions (e.g., Blue Hill in NY, Fook Lam Moon in HK), I'd have to say that, for me, restaurants outside of Europe are indeed not as good. Not that restaurants outside of Europe do not offer food that should be taken seriously, though.

(I don't see my subjective viewpoint as being elitist, and I don't believe others necessarily share that viewpoint.)

(If Vanessa's reference was to produce from beyond the boundaries of Europe, I would say that food products are slowly getting bettter in those regions.)

Edited January 8, 2003 by cabrales (log)

[Gavin Jones]

Elitism: Advocacy of or reliance on the leadership and dominance of an élite (in a society, or in any body or class of persons). Hence élitist n. and a.

You will notice that élite is a French word.

[Vanessa]

Amongst those who see themselves as interested in food, I would consider some to be elitist - for example those who cannot countenance the fact that food from beyond the boundaries of Europe can be taken seriously.

With all due respect to restaurants, and with a very few exceptions (e.g., Blue Hill in NY, Fook Lam Moon in HK), I'd have to say that, for me, restaurants outside of Europe are indeed not as good. Not that restaurants outside of Europe do not offer food that should be taken seriously, though.

(I don't see my subjective viewpoint as being elitist, and I don't believe others necessarily share that viewpoint.)

(If Vanessa's reference was to produce from beyond the boundaries of Europe, I would say that food products are slowly getting bettter in those regions.)

Cabrales - Although you have a preference for French cuisine, I'm sure that wouldn't prevent you from sampling other cuisines and I'm sure you wouldn't look down on people who might choose to eat Chinese/Indian/Turkish/Mexican or whatever on a given occasion. That's what I mean.

v

[macrosan]

Now I'm going to have to beat you about the head with the OED:

Elitism: Advocacy of or reliance on the leadership and dominance of an élite (in a society, or in any body or class of persons). Hence élitist n. and a.

Prof, can I share that subscription with you ? I'd take out my own, but that might be considered elitist.

I emphasise the word dominance in the OED definition, and I repeat my own preference for "common parlance" as opposed to "redbrick parlance" Do people who went to the other place have a CED ?

[Basildog]

Interest in food in itself is not elitist, but plenty of people in this country are elitist about the restaurants they eat at, the produce they use, the equipment they use.

[A Scottish Chef]

in greneral people in the UK have a very shallow interest in food

Gulp.

Where do you get that idea? What an astonishing conclusion.

[Adam Balic]

in greneral people in the UK have a very shallow interest in food

Gulp.

Where do you get that idea? What an astonishing conclusion.

Well as I said "in general', as I live in Edinburgh so I can really only base my conclusions based on my experiences in Scotland.

But, before we get all 'curse that oily ticks hide for suggesting such a thing about the UK', the statement is also true of Australian and I suspect the USA as well. As an example, I am surprised at the number of people that I have met who cannot cook with any real confidence. They are scared of cooking and are disapointed that the roast beef they bought from the supermarket is tough and dried our, even though the followed Delia. Pointing out that if you are going to invest a significant amount of money in a joint of beef then you really should know something about it, in terms of what breed, how long it has been hung, has the meat supplier had good produce in the past etc. Rather then going to a butcher and establishing a relationship with a real live human, most people I work with, would rather buy originless lumps of pink protein from a supermarket - because it is 'less effort' and 'Rachael and are practically veggie anyway'.

For a nation that has got amazingly worked up about some foxes being hunted bu toffs in frocks, they is a stupendous lack in interest in the origin of foodstuffs, the processing or animal welfare. I am very tired of having to listen to some twits banging on about the 'cruel and disgusting fox hunting' while stuffing down a shitty pre-packaged, micro-waveable, un-inspired "Indian" chicken curry, made out of chickens raised for six weeks in hellish conditions and fed on Christ knows what - without any though at all about what they are doing.

Shallow.

[Miss J]

I am very tired of having to listen to some twits banging on about the 'cruel and disgusting fox hunting' while stuffing down a shitty pre-packaged, micro-waveable, un-inspired "Indian" chicken curry, made out of chickens raised for six weeks in hellish conditions and fed on Christ knows what - without any though at all about what they are doing.

...and my pet peeve is listening to righteous little Englanders bang on about how the Labour government is "destroying England's farming heritage" (though foot & mouth, petrol taxes, etc) then watching them haul an M&S ready meal out of the fridge for dinner.

There does seem to be a strange tendancy towards party-politics that touch on animal welfare or food production without actually looking very hard at any of the issues involved in either.

[Kikujiro]

JOHN: Well, all right. Let's see. (He reads.) I find that I am sexist. That I am elitist. I'm not sure I know what that means, other than it's a derogatory word, meaning 'bad.'

-- David Mamet, Oleanna

Edited January 9, 2003 by Kikujiro (log)

[peterpumkino]

in greneral people in the UK have a very shallow interest in food

Gulp.

Where do you get that idea? What an astonishing conclusion.

the statement is also true of Australian and I suspect the USA as well.

I would say definately the United States. The vast majority know absolutely nada (and don't want to know) about food. They eat at their fast food joints and Olive Gardens stuffing their mouths full of disgusting food that I wouldn't even feed Plotnicki. However, before you all start to flame me, there is a small percentage of Americans (and don't forget a 'small percentage' in the U.S. is still a helluva lot of people) who really know their stuff and many are on this site (with the exception of one!).

Certainly in my experience people (and in my job I do meet a lot of people) in the UK are very interested in food and a select few are gourmets. Is this being elitist?

This is, of course, not true of the Fish and Chip brigade (but I DO love good fish and chips!).

[Tonyfinch]

Not so much elitist as sensualist. The reason WASP countries have less of an interest in food is because the foundations of Protestanism lay in the rejection of the perceived practices of the corrupt Catholoic church. The rules of celibacy and asceticsm were compromised by lustful priests, gluttonous friars etc.

The new Puritans were obsessed with ensuring the denying of sensual pleasures. Anything that could inflame lustful thoughts, let alone acts,was suspect. Food and drink had been long thought to be key catalysts in promoting lust. One of the reasons for the rejection of spicy and highly seasoned foods from the WASP diet was the belief that spices and seasonings inflamed the blood.

Food came to be seen as a means to an end. Anyone seeing it as an end in itself had,per se., been corrupted by it.

Its taken a long time for WASP countries to begin to shake off this legacy and its true that in many parts of the WASP world anyone who takes a deep interest in food for sensual pleasure is still regarded uneasily.

Edited January 9, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[peterpumkino]

It certainly works for me!!!!!

One other thing is - the climate. Let's face it the Nordic countries do not have such an emphasis on food than even we do let alone France, Spain et all. The first time I went to Iceland (and it wasn't THAT long ago) there was a total of 2 restaurants in Reykavik - now there are many. They say that the reason the Italians put up with everything going wrong, 143 governments in thirty years, the trains running late, the post office running out of stamps - you name it, is simply because they have the 'mentalita del cortile' - courtyard mentality. Meaning that after a terrible day with everything going wrong they get home, go outside in their courtyard on a balmy night, open a bottle of lovely red, get some great fresh pasta, eat some formaggio, watch the stars and not give a s*** about anything else. Nice life?

[CheGuevara]

This is, of course, not true of the Fish and Chip brigade (but I DO love good fish and chips!).

couldn't agree more with you regarding the US - to most eating is akin to filling up your car at the station.

on the above fish & chips comment - to me anyone who can't appreciate good fish & chips (same goes for a bacon sandwich) is not truly passionate about food.

che

[A Scottish Chef]

But, before we get all 'curse that oily ticks hide for suggesting such a thing about the UK', the statement is also true of Australian and I suspect the USA as well.

Feel free to suggest anything you like about our disUnited Kingdom. I still do not think your assertion is true. Not at all.

As an example, I have never met anyone who proclaims they have no interest in good food.

Also - you are "very tired of having to listen to some twits banging on about the 'cruel and disgusting fox hunting' " and yet you are concerned about "chickens raised for six weeks in hellish conditions and fed on Christ knows what" ?

Hmmm...odd.

Still, to answer your original question, I don't think your level of interest in food is elitest. Not at all Indeed, I am glad we have people like you who care passionately about food. Every little helps.

I don't believe people have what you call a 'shallow' interest in food for any greater reason than prioritisation. That may include budgetary concerns (and for many thats an absolute truth) and it may include expectation and time limitations, but none of these would suggest to me that a desire for good food is absent or unimportant to most.

[Adam Balic]

But, before we get all 'curse that oily ticks hide for suggesting such a thing about the UK', the statement is also true of Australian and I suspect the USA as well.

Feel free to suggest anything you like about our disUnited Kingdom. I still do not think your assertion is true. Not at all.

As an example, I have never met anyone who proclaims they have no interest in good food.

Also - you are "very tired of having to listen to some twits banging on about the 'cruel and disgusting fox hunting' " and yet you are concerned about "chickens raised for six weeks in hellish conditions and fed on Christ knows what" ?

Hmmm...odd.

Still, to answer your original question, I don't think your level of interest in food is elitest. Not at all Indeed, I am glad we have people like you who care passionately about food. Every little helps.

I don't believe people have what you call a 'shallow' interest in food for any greater reason than prioritisation. That may include budgetary concerns (and for many thats an absolute truth) and it may include expectation and time limitations, but none of these would suggest to me that a desire for good food is absent or unimportant to most.

The is nothing in my statements to indicate if I was anti- or pro- hunting, as this was not the intent of the statement. The point of the statement was to indicate that, while people may have an opinion on are particular subject, in this case animal welfare, their actions indicate that these opinions are based on emotive issues, rather then well informed opinion.

In much the same light, obviously if you ask people if they have an interest in good food they are going to indicate that yes they do. However, the actions of these same people indicate what this level is. Since, I live in Edinburgh prehaps we could use my experiences here as a discussion base.

Scotland - producer of some of the finest produce in the world (still the largest producer of raspberries in the UE I think).

Edinburgh its First city. No fresh food markets. While historically famous for it's seafood, the vast majority of fishmongers are very dire indeed (one excellent on in Marchmount another in Stockbridge). Ditto butchers and Greengrocers. Several excellent ethnic food stores to service some of non-anglo-celtic community. A large number of excellent Deli, cheesemongers etc. A number of good restuarants, many less good. Large numbers of take-away joints, various types, some very good. Large amounts of microwaveble meals in the Supermarkets, where it would seem most people shop.

The sad thing being in all this is that while Scotland produces amazing produce, the abilty of consumer to gain access to this produce is extremely limited. The sevices that are good tend to supply ready to use goods, rather then raw produce.

Trotting into Harvey Nicks and buying a nicely packaged duck breast for one, is all very well and shows an interest in food, but it demonstrates more of an interest in lifestyle, rather food specifically. This is why I suspect is the reason for limitations on the avaliblity of raw produce, people want it, but they want it as part of a greater lifestyle package, rather then as an intrinsically good thing in itself.

Hope this will state some interesting debate, as you say, every little bit helps.

[Gary Marshall]

a bit of a tangent here but stick with me...

i don't know if anyone else saw this wife swap programme on c4 this week. But the premise is as the name suggests a 2 families swap wives for a week and see how they get on.

One family lived entirely on ready meals, in front of the TV, and in a particlarly memorable shot for me, hadn't even bothered to put the 'food' on a plate he was eating what looked like sausage and mash straight from the plastic carton!

this is a far more realistic view of family eating in the UK in 03 than the world of egullet.

Most people in the UK would claim to like good food, who wouldn't? but whether they can be arsed to source ingredients & cook them rather than hit the ready meals/take aways is an entirely different kettle of fish.

It will change eventually but for the next, say 5 years, an overt interest in food if not elitist would certainly be viewed as esoteric.

[Jon Tseng]

hadn't even bothered to put the 'food' on a plate he was eating what looked like sausage and mash straight from the plastic carton!

Mate... of course

it soooooooo saves on the washing-up

just make sure you have a tray underneath - those plastic cartons can get hot!

;-)

Edited January 10, 2003 by Jon Tseng (log)

[macrosan]

...sausage and mash straight from the plastic carton!

this is a far more realistic view of family eating in the UK in 03 than the world of egullet.

Gary, how on earth do you support that statement ?

[Winot]

Most people in the UK would claim to like good food, who wouldn't? but whether they can be arsed to source ingredients & cook them rather than hit the ready meals/take aways is an entirely different kettle of fish.

And they certainly couldn't be bothered with a fish kettle.

[peterpumkino]

...sausage and mash straight from the plastic carton!

this is a far more realistic view of family eating in the UK in 03 than the world of egullet.

Gary, how on earth do you support that statement ?

Yes, I would be interested to know as well, Garry. You must watch a lot of TV 'real life' soaps.

Eating is a lifestyle thing and many families eat TV dinners and that's it but nowhere near all. Even if we are having a Chinese or Indian take-away I insist that we eat at a table with proper cutlery. My significant other (can you imagine living with me?!) thinks it's wonderful because, even if the food is fast food, at least you sit down, concentrate on the food and the conversation and thus while the time time away at leisure and enjoy the experience. I may be wrong but I do believe quite a few people do the same.

[Scottf]

gluttonous friars

LOL

That's me and Sam

[Adam Balic]

Interesting as it is to read about Peter interacting with his family, I don't think that the observations on eating habits of somebody that takes part in food website is going to be particularly representative of the population on the whole.

Having seen the amount of prepared food verses raw ingredients in the Scotland, I suspect that Gary is more corrct then any of us would like to admit. I have been reading some accounds of the modern British dietry habits in Colin Spencers "British Food" and I think that his conclusions are largely the same.

I'm positive it is not because don't care about the food they are eating, it is just that often it is a question of finace or they simply are not confident with cooking. I am often surprised at how little people cook, in what they cook and what is their level of expetise. I was a a good friends house for dinner a few weeks ago and I help him cook peasant with cream, calvados and apples form a recipe. He did very well, but had difficulty with the recipe because of the detail (or lack of). For instance the recipe said "core and fry apples in butter". No problem for me, but a major problem for my friend. How to core the apples (no apple corer in the house), how thick to slice the apples, what temperature, how much butter, when are they "done" etc etc.

This again is only one example (I will try to find real data soon), but I suspect that it may more representative of may peoples interaction with food then Peter's 1950's model, Dad in the big chair, Happy Familys - type take away meals.

[macrosan]

I was a a good friends house for dinner a few weeks ago and I help him cook peasant with cream, calvados and apples ...

Adam, when you first disclosed this (presumably East European) practice of cooking peasants, I thought it was a typo. Now you have me seriously worried ....

I do not doubt that the general eating habits of the population fall below those of eGullet members. I just don't believe they're anywhere near as primitive as Gary was suggesting.