Ramping low and slow sous vide cooking temps

[tdatta]

Hello All,

 

I have been reading this forums for a while now and this is my first post. Im interested in cooking a brisket and Ive seen a lot of conflicting information on the forums as well as elsewhere. 

 

Until recently I was quite certain that I wanted to follow the MC recipe which is to smoke it at a low temp for 7 hours, then SV at 63 C for 72 hours. However, last night I had a bad experience with a 30 hour eye of round done at 57 C, it was dry and not tender enough. Some additional info on that piece of meat. I had seasoned it with salt/pepper/chilli flakes and vacuum sealed it about a week before cooking. The end product had lost a lot of moisture and as a result was quite dry, also I feel that my temp was not high enough to tenderize the meat.

 

There are two points where I am confused.

1. Time and temperature:

MC says 72 hours @ 63 C. According to http://www.citizensousvide.com/brisket.html: Serious Eats did 10 hrs at 82.2 C, Doug Baldwin has done 24 hrs @ 80 and 48 hrs @ 57.2, Nom Nom Paleo has done 48 hrs @ 63.9 C, while another source says that the French Laundry has done 48 hrs @ 64 C.

 

So many different recommendations. Then upon reading http://wiki.egullet.org/index.php?title=Sous_vide#Cooking_tough_proteins I get the impression that I should be cooking below 60 C, maybe 57 C? (so that collagenase can do its thing [as it seems to inactivate above 60 C], and prevent the collagen from wringing the moisture out of the meat as it denatures) and then possibly increase the temperature to 63 C to allow thermal tenderization (the mechanism of which is currently unclear to me) to take place.

 

So maybe 24 hours at 57 C and another 48 Hours at 63 C?

 

Another possible source of confusion could be that some recipes are for the point vs for the flat which seem to have different compositions. The meat I bought says flat, I am not confident enough to try to identify it (I could post a picture if that would help).

 

 2. To season before SV or not?

I feel that a possible reason that the eye of round came out dry is because I had it vacuum sealed with salt for about a week before I cooked it. This may have lead to moisture being drawn out of the meat (though I did not see notable moisture in the bag before cooking). The MC recipe is quite curious in that it says nothing of seasoning the meat. Simple that one should smoke it and then SV it, finally brushing some BBW sauce on it after slicing it. 

 

But I do see many recipes both on these forums as well as elsewhere where people season before the long SV cook. 

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I would like my brisket to turn out pinkish and not gray on the inside, but I would be happy with gray meat if it was tender and moist.

Edited November 25, 2014 by tdatta (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

By sealing in the bag with salt you may have cured your meat.  I suggest not seasoning before cooking most meat sous vide.

 

I have had good sous vide experiences with beef chuck, short ribs, and lamb shoulder at 24 to 72 hours.  My most recent lamb that I am still finishing up is very tender indeed.  (My one complaint with short ribs is too much bone, not enough meat.)

 

 

Edit:  most usually I cook tough meat at about 56 deg C as I recall, with very good results.

 

Now, if I could only learn how to cook a steak.

Edited November 25, 2014 by JoNorvelleWalker (log)

[FeChef]

Salt draws moisture. To retain moisture its better to use equilibrium brining where you soak the meat in a salt water solution for a few days. Anywhere from 2-4% should help without giving the meat that "cured" taste. I have had good results with eye of round cooking SV for 16 hours @ 132F and slicing very thin with an electric slicer. Very tender, flavorful and juicy.

[Dave W]

Eye of round isn't a tough protein. It's a tender protein that overcooks easily.

If I were to SV that meat id apply salt no more than 2 days before, then cook at 55c for core temp and not for extended tenderization.

But really id prefer to make eye of round into bresaola or jerky, it's just difficult to work with generally.

[Dave W]

Brisket on the other hand has loads and loads of fat and collagen that will moisturize it if handled properly.

There's a reason that BBQ brisket flat can be juicier than any tender cuts even at internal temperatures over 200F.

Edit: tough meats like this can benefit from a variety of time temp combinations as you saw on the blogosphere. If you're really looking for pink color then stay below 60C and 24-36h as a guideline. I've found longer than that can get mealy with even the toughest cuts like chuck.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Dave W (log)

[btbyrd]

Season at the end. Salting before hand can dry out proteins and/or lead to a cured texture and flavor. Brining is fine if youre going for corned beef or pastrami type results, but for straight up smoked brisket, save the salt until the end. My preferred order of operations is: long cold(ish) smoke -> SV -> season -> short hot smoke to freshen the smoke flavor and help the bark.

[paulraphael]

All good advice from everyone here. 

 

In general you can expect to get wildly different time/temperature recommendations for long-cooked sous-vide dishes, because there's a range of effects people might like. The 10-hour times at high temperatures are going to give results like a traditional braise. The longer times at lower temperatures are going to give results that are more steak-like ... pink and tender, but cohesive. And there's everything in between.

 

It's important to understand the effect someone was striving for before taking their recommendation.

[FeChef]

Season at the end. Salting before hand can dry out proteins and/or lead to a cured texture and flavor. Brining is fine if youre going for corned beef or pastrami type results, but for straight up smoked brisket, save the salt until the end. My preferred order of operations is: long cold(ish) smoke -> SV -> season -> short hot smoke to freshen the smoke flavor and help the bark.

I disagree about brining leading to cured flavor or texture. That depends entirely on what you add to the brine and how long you brine. A 2-4% salt water brine for 24-48 hours will not produce those results you speak of. As a matter of fact some chain restaurants brine there steaks. They use cheap cuts so they may not be the best steak you ever had, but they are far from the taste or texture of corned beef.

[tdatta]

Thanks for all the input. I understand that many people have different ideas about what temperatures to use. But in most cases everyone recommends a constant temperature.

 

Does anyone have experience with using more than one temperature, specifically a lower temperature to allow enzymatic digestion of collagen and then a higher temperature later on?

 

Regarding the brining I will try it out, maybe not on this brisket but likely on the next piece of similar meat. 

[rotuts]

this has been discussed but I personally have not got around to it ( yet ) I have an 'upright' freezer that's almost always full of

 

SV to ( pleasantly ) deal with first : take two items out, three new ones later go in.

 

 I think PedroG might have done this.  MC mentions it.  PM PG why dont you .

 

the temp to use reflect the 'done-ness' you enjoy eating.  simple as that.

Edited November 25, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[tdatta]

Thanks again. I apologize if MC mentions it. I must have missed the section. I will look for it later this evening. I will also PM PedroG once I feel like I have a basic understanding of the processes so that I can get the most out of his answer.

 

In the mean time I have started a 72 hour 63 C Brisket. With no salt prior to SV. Ill post some pictures so show how it turns out so that it can be used as a reference in the future.

[rotuts]

Brisket  ( as long as its not pre-salted ) would be the ideal meat to do the several phase enzymatic deduction.

 

all that tough narley bits would be reduced to pure flavor.

 

Ill put you in charge of this study.

[tdatta]

Sounds good. But the multi-phase study will have to be initiated on the next brisket, as the current one started at 63 C, either way it can act as a control.

 

I like how you said that you will put me in charge of this study, not knowing that I am a engineer who will soon have a doctorate based on experimental research.

 

 

Edit*

This edit is after the following two posts: Unfortunately as a provisional member I cannot post again till some time limit ends. I was thinking that for a control the best bet would be to slice a single brisket in half lengthwise, this would prevent the traditional slicing but would act as a reasonable control to try to determine a good approach for tenderizing the meat.

Edited November 26, 2014 by tdatta (log)

[gfweb]

Sounds good. But the multi-phase study will have to be initiated on the next brisket, as the current one started at 63 C, either way it can act as a control.

 

I like how you said that you will put me in charge of this study, not knowing that I am a engineer who will soon have a doctorate based on experimental research.

 

 I'd suggest a better control. One from the same piece of brisket cooked at 63C.

[rotuts]

"""  I like how you said that you will put me in charge of this study, not knowing that I am a engineer who will soon have a doctorate based on experimental research. ""

 

Soooooooooooooo

 

 

Doctor  Sur la Plate I sure do hope !

[tdatta]

Not so great news to report.

 

Mass of meat before cooking 3.077 kg

Mass of meat after cooking 2.23 kg

 

Roughly a 27.5% loss. Now it wasn't all water, there was some rendered fat in there as well, but it water made up much more than 90% of it.

Now I did try to smoke it after the SV, but the smoke didnt really take. I tried smoking it at around 140 for a couple of hours, but I think the humidity was too low and the imporvised smoker didnt really work very well (I was trying to use someone elses gas grill, so there were a number of constraints that I had to deal with). Although I didnt weight it after smoking, there were negligle amount of drippings in the pan placed under the meat.

 

 

Here are two pictures, the first is decievingly juicy. The second is how it actually was. The meat was actually quite tender, just much to dry for my tastes.

 

 

 

Ill be redoing the brisket with different methods and will post as results come in.

Edited November 29, 2014 by tdatta (log)

[rotuts]

Excellent

 

 

tdatta

 

you are starting on your own personal journey !

 

1 ) keep a note book  : cut,  price , trim you did , time and temp.

 

after a bit your will be a SV ace

 

you can get the Ace earlier if you read the voluminous and On The Spot stuff here

 

on SV  that's no joke

 

what you have not told us on your experiment  (  all SV Is and Experiment  why you need that Note Book )

 

is the time  //  temp // and cut

 

welcome to the Delisious-ness of SV !

[tdatta]

I've had great luck with steak and fish. Some vegetables as well. Just trying to get the slow and low under my belt.

The first brisket (pictured above) was a "first cut" (choice) including both the flat and point (if I am not mistaken),

It was cooked at a constant temperature of 63 C for 72 hours.

[weedy]

For me, the advantage in sous vide, as compared to just a 'straight' braise, is the ability to do it at that lower controlled temp that keeps the meat in the med rare range.

 

 

that means no more than 135F/57C,  or so

 

I've done both brisket and short ribs for 70 hours at 135 and been happy.

Yes, it's (as some have called it) 'steakier' than a braise, but still has some of tat long braised tender quality... and (again, to me) that's what makes it worth doing; to end up with a flavour and texture you can't get from a braise.

 

otherwise, why do it?

 

 

oh, and the more I do sous vide cooking, the more convinced I am to not salt ahead of time.

Edited November 30, 2014 by weedy (log)

[gfweb]

Agreed. Esp on the pre-salt. I salt after SV before the sear, and then again lightly before serving.

 

I've gotten a cured texture from even modest preSV salting

[tdatta]

Another data point.

 

SV Brisket

3 Hours 39 C

3 hours 49 C

65 hours 57 C

 

Mass before SV, 1708 g

mass after SV 1409 g

Moisture loss 17.5%

 

Chilled in ice bath till internal temp was 15 C (I was impatient).

Dried, and then rubbed with salt, sugar, onion powder, garlic powder, pepper, cumin, red chilli powder, and paprika.

Then  placed into smoker for about 2.5 hours at around 100C dry bulb temp,

Waited till probe at core read 52 C to take out of smoker. Full disclosure, I waited till it hit 51 C (core), let it cool down to 47 C, and then continued smoking till it hit 52 C core.

 

Comments: The meat was moist and tender, possibly a bit too tender. It was very well received. 

 

 

 

[paulraphael]

Has anyone done this kind of before / after weighing with a traditional braise? I have trouble believing you'd actually lose more moisture with SV than with a dutch oven.

 

The differences should lie primarily in temperature control.