Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 9)

[Martin Fisher]

And pasteurized means that it was cooked at a temperature to eliminate bacteria, right? So much lingo and it all revolves around safety so I'm really trying to get my head around it.

I strongly recommend that you read the Douglas Baldwin information that I linked in the other thread.

[gfweb]

I second that.

[Martin Fisher]

Dave Arnold's "To Salt or Not To Salt –That’s the Searing Question."

[Robenco15]

Yeah I was reading through it. I want to make sure I am understanding it correctly. Pasteurization is obviously a great thing, but it also takes hours and hours to achieve. If I was to sous vide a piece of meat with the idea of chilling it in an ice bath and then refrigerating or freezing it, I have to pasteurize it. But, if I plan on taking it out of the bag, searing it, and eating it, then I don't have to worry about pasteurizing it as I won't be holding it for a long period of time in the fridge, etc. I believe if I was a restaurant I would have 4 hours to serve it? Hence, Dr. Baldwin has two separate tables on his website. Table 2.2 is not pasteurization and table 5.1 is pasteurization.

In Modernist Cuisine, they give the temperature and the sous vide time for steaks to be between 45 to 60 minutes. That is not the pasteurization time correct? That is the sear and serve time isn't it?

What about eggs? Eggs cooked at 63C for 60 minutes aren't pasteurized are they? But they are safe to eat immediately right?

I'm reading and trying to make sense of everything on Baldwin's site but I'm also trying to make sense of all of the new terms in my head and look to you guys for confirmation that I'm understanding it.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Robenco15 (log)

[greenmonk]

Thanks for sharing that device greenmonk! I'll look into it when it begins shipping.

I can ask him when he thinks he can start taking orders from people who didn't back him on Kickstarter. He actually doesn't live far from me. We've been emailing back and forth, so I'll ask him when I email him again. He supposed to start shipping to backers in the middle to end of October, so if you really want one, he may be able to put you on a list for like a "pre-order" or something and ship to you after he ships to all the backers. I'll ask for you.

[Robenco15]

Thanks for sharing that device greenmonk! I'll look into it when it begins shipping.

I can ask him when he thinks he can start taking orders from people who didn't back him on Kickstarter. He actually doesn't live far from me. We've been emailing back and forth, so I'll ask him when I email him again. He supposed to start shipping to backers in the middle to end of October, so if you really want one, he may be able to put you on a list for like a "pre-order" or something and ship to you after he ships to all the backers. I'll ask for you.

Thank you! I'm not set on it yet, but definitely ask about it. That would be awesome!

[KennethT]

Yeah I was reading through it. I want to make sure I am understanding it correctly. Pasteurization is obviously a great thing, but it also takes hours and hours to achieve. If I was to sous vide a piece of meat with the idea of chilling it in an ice bath and then refrigerating or freezing it, I have to pasteurize it. But, if I plan on taking it out of the bag, searing it, and eating it, then I don't have to worry about pasteurizing it as I won't be holding it for a long period of time in the fridge, etc. I believe if I was a restaurant I would have 4 hours to serve it? Hence, Dr. Baldwin has two separate tables on his website. Table 2.2 is not pasteurization and table 5.1 is pasteurization.

In Modernist Cuisine, they give the temperature and the sous vide time for steaks to be between 45 to 60 minutes. That is not the pasteurization time correct? That is the sear and serve time isn't it?

What about eggs? Eggs cooked at 63C for 60 minutes aren't pasteurized are they? But they are safe to eat immediately right?

I'm reading and trying to make sense of everything on Baldwin's site but I'm also trying to make sense of all of the new terms in my head and look to you guys for confirmation that I'm understanding it.

Not everything needs to be pasteurized if you are to consume immediately (or within 4 hours). Whole muscle cuts of beef, like steak are fine - as long as you give it a surface sear which will kill all surface bacteria. The theory is that the interior of whole muscle cuts (meat that hasn't been punctured) are considered sterile, but the surface may be contaminated. BTW - while doing this, I would recommend searing before SV - as many times, low temperature baths for rare steak are like incubators for bacteria - so you'd want to kill any surface bacteria before hitting the bath. Some people drop the bagged steak in boiling water for a short time... but personally, I'm a fan of the pre and post sear. Pre for bacteria, post for flavor/color.

Other foods, like poultry, should be pasteurized regardless of when you plan on consuming it.

I think the rule of thumb with pasteurization would go along with whether you would consider eating the same item raw. So steak, for instance, can be eaten as tartare, so you wouldn't need to pasteurize other than the surface. I don't know anyone who would ever consider eating raw chicken.

[Anna N]

Yeah I was reading through it. I want to make sure I am understanding it correctly. Pasteurization is obviously a great thing, but it also takes hours and hours to achieve. If I was to sous vide a piece of meat with the idea of chilling it in an ice bath and then refrigerating or freezing it, I have to pasteurize it. But, if I plan on taking it out of the bag, searing it, and eating it, then I don't have to worry about pasteurizing it as I won't be holding it for a long period of time in the fridge, etc. I believe if I was a restaurant I would have 4 hours to serve it? Hence, Dr. Baldwin has two separate tables on his website. Table 2.2 is not pasteurization and table 5.1 is pasteurization. In Modernist Cuisine, they give the temperature and the sous vide time for steaks to be between 45 to 60 minutes. That is not the pasteurization time correct? That is the sear and serve time isn't it? What about eggs? Eggs cooked at 63C for 60 minutes aren't pasteurized are they? But they are safe to eat immediately right? I'm reading and trying to make sense of everything on Baldwin's site but I'm also trying to make sense of all of the new terms in my head and look to you guys for confirmation that I'm understanding it.

Not everything needs to be pasteurized if you are to consume immediately (or within 4 hours). Whole muscle cuts of beef, like steak are fine - as long as you give it a surface sear which will kill all surface bacteria. The theory is that the interior of whole muscle cuts (meat that hasn't been punctured) are considered sterile, but the surface may be contaminated. BTW - while doing this, I would recommend searing before SV - as many times, low temperature baths for rare steak are like incubators for bacteria - so you'd want to kill any surface bacteria before hitting the bath. Some people drop the bagged steak in boiling water for a short time... but personally, I'm a fan of the pre and post sear. Pre for bacteria, post for flavor/color.Other foods, like poultry, should be pasteurized regardless of when you plan on consuming it.I think the rule of thumb with pasteurization would go along with whether you would consider eating the same item raw. So steak, for instance, can be eaten as tartare, so you wouldn't need to pasteurize other than the surface. I don't know anyone who would ever consider eating raw chicken.

Just a couple of comments. The Japanese have a number of raw chicken dishes. And more importantly one needs to be aware that steaks are now frequently jaccarded (pierced all over with very fine blades to cut the muscle fibres) prior to sale to tenderise them. This is not always obvious but it suggests that one needs to know the provenance of one's steaks before assuming that they don't require pasteurization.

[Robenco15]

Thank you for all of the help!

I have a question about the Nathanm beef and poultry/pork charts I've been looking at. Are they pasteurization charts or just sear and serve charts? They seem to me to be sear and serve charts. Does Nathanm have pasteurization charts somewhere?

Thickness is taken into account, but what about if it is a pork tenderloin that may be 3 inches thick but 12 inches long. I know Baldwin has charts for sperical, cylindrical, and slab meat, but does Nathanm have them somewhere?

Does cooking multiple bags of the same protein in one waterbath affect cooking time at all? Obviously the temperature may drop more but in terms of cooking time, does it matter?

Thank you! So glad to be feeling more comfortable about the safety involved with it.

[KennethT]

Yeah I was reading through it. I want to make sure I am understanding it correctly. Pasteurization is obviously a great thing, but it also takes hours and hours to achieve. If I was to sous vide a piece of meat with the idea of chilling it in an ice bath and then refrigerating or freezing it, I have to pasteurize it. But, if I plan on taking it out of the bag, searing it, and eating it, then I don't have to worry about pasteurizing it as I won't be holding it for a long period of time in the fridge, etc. I believe if I was a restaurant I would have 4 hours to serve it? Hence, Dr. Baldwin has two separate tables on his website. Table 2.2 is not pasteurization and table 5.1 is pasteurization. In Modernist Cuisine, they give the temperature and the sous vide time for steaks to be between 45 to 60 minutes. That is not the pasteurization time correct? That is the sear and serve time isn't it? What about eggs? Eggs cooked at 63C for 60 minutes aren't pasteurized are they? But they are safe to eat immediately right? I'm reading and trying to make sense of everything on Baldwin's site but I'm also trying to make sense of all of the new terms in my head and look to you guys for confirmation that I'm understanding it.

Not everything needs to be pasteurized if you are to consume immediately (or within 4 hours). Whole muscle cuts of beef, like steak are fine - as long as you give it a surface sear which will kill all surface bacteria. The theory is that the interior of whole muscle cuts (meat that hasn't been punctured) are considered sterile, but the surface may be contaminated. BTW - while doing this, I would recommend searing before SV - as many times, low temperature baths for rare steak are like incubators for bacteria - so you'd want to kill any surface bacteria before hitting the bath. Some people drop the bagged steak in boiling water for a short time... but personally, I'm a fan of the pre and post sear. Pre for bacteria, post for flavor/color.Other foods, like poultry, should be pasteurized regardless of when you plan on consuming it.I think the rule of thumb with pasteurization would go along with whether you would consider eating the same item raw. So steak, for instance, can be eaten as tartare, so you wouldn't need to pasteurize other than the surface. I don't know anyone who would ever consider eating raw chicken.

Just a couple of comments. The Japanese have a number of raw chicken dishes. And more importantly one needs to be aware that steaks are now frequently jaccarded (pierced all over with very fine blades to cut the muscle fibres) prior to sale to tenderise them. This is not always obvious but it suggests that one needs to know the provenance of one's steaks before assuming that they don't require pasteurization.

Right - I thought about explicitly mentioning the industrial jaccarding, but didn't - I alluded to it when I mentioned "meat that hasn't been punctured" but I should have been more explicit, so thanks for pointing that out. With regards to the chicken, while I know there are a few cultures that eat raw poultry, I'm not sure if they're doing that at home, or only in restaurants that know exactly when and how the chicken was slaughtered, gutted, etc to minimize the chances of bacterial problems. And I have no idea how popular those dishes are - do people eat them all the time or is it only once in a long while? Just like with sushi - you can't just go to your local market, pick up a piece of salmon fillet or something and assume it is sushi grade and safe for raw consumption. Nothing is impossible, but I have a hard time believing that people are going to their local market, picking up some chicken that may have been sitting there for a few days, and consuming it raw.

Regarding the question about pasteurization time - the pasteurization time is a constant for a given core temperature and bacteria type. What varies is the amount of time it takes the core to get to that temperature - which varies primarily by thickness/shape. Douglas Baldwin makes it easy by incorporating pasteurization time into some of the tables - but I think early-on NathanM posted a table of pasteurization times by temperature that you could add to the time it takes to reach core temperature.

If you have an iOS device, I would highly recommend downloading the SousVideDash app - designed by an EGullet member and fellow sous vide enthusiast Vengroff. It is not expensive, and it makes the problem of cooking times, pasteurization, etc. a non-issue as the app calculates everything for you. All you need to do is enter in the type of protein, desired core temp, bath temp, food shape and thickness, and you're ready to go.

ETA: Yes, shape matters. I don't believe NathanM went into detail about it in the early tables, but if memory serves, it was address in Modernist Cuisine. It is also addressed in the Sous Vide Dash app. The early nathanm tables assumed an infinite plane of a certain thickness (like a slab) - which is the worst case scenario. If you are using the same bath temp as core temp, then this is a good figure to use at will ensure that the core is what you think it is. Other shapes will reduce the need for as long of a cooking time to come to temp. Shape becomes much more critical if you're doing gradient cooking - your core temp is lower than your bath temp. Some people prefer this method for certain foods that they don't want to be 100% even... personally, I do that when I cook fatty fish - like salmon. I use a bath temp of 115F, but shoot for a core temp of 102F - it comes out just how I like it every time, plus it makes the cooking time quite a bit shorter. But that is much trickier to figure without the app.

Cooking multiple bags does not affect anything so long as you have decent water flow around each of the bags - they shouldn't be stacked up touching each other. As long as your water can flow around each bag, and your heater can remedy the initial temp drop in a short amount of time it's fine.

Edited September 3, 2013 by KennethT (log)

[gfweb]

Over longer cooking times the temp drop from a big load of food is negligible assuming your heater is adequately powered. You can minimize the effect by using a large volume of water to cook in and insulating your vessel.

[OliverB]

don't forget that you're not creating a real vacuum, you're pulling air out so that the water can have contact with as much of the food as possible. It's not a vacuum and there's still air/oxygen in there and that's totally fine. which is why the water displacement method is just fine.

Personally I'd still get a food saver or similar, since it's so useful for other things (freezer storage, buying cold cuts in bulk and splitting them, freezing parts, etc) but if you really don't have the room for one you'll be totally find with the dunk in water method.

I'm not sure I'd trust the ziplock bags to hold a "vacuum" for extended times anyway, but for SV you'll be plenty fine. Actually, a sandwich bag dunked and then twisted, folded over and tied shut with a rubber band or similar does work as well if in a bind. You just want to be sure your meat etc has full (or as full as possible) contact with the water at all times.

[EMG]

Regarding pasteurization, I found this video from ChefSteps explaining sous-vide pre-treatment. Nothing in depth, but shows the many ways to safely prepare your food:

[Robenco15]

Yeah I was reading through it. I want to make sure I am understanding it correctly. Pasteurization is obviously a great thing, but it also takes hours and hours to achieve. If I was to sous vide a piece of meat with the idea of chilling it in an ice bath and then refrigerating or freezing it, I have to pasteurize it. But, if I plan on taking it out of the bag, searing it, and eating it, then I don't have to worry about pasteurizing it as I won't be holding it for a long period of time in the fridge, etc. I believe if I was a restaurant I would have 4 hours to serve it? Hence, Dr. Baldwin has two separate tables on his website. Table 2.2 is not pasteurization and table 5.1 is pasteurization. In Modernist Cuisine, they give the temperature and the sous vide time for steaks to be between 45 to 60 minutes. That is not the pasteurization time correct? That is the sear and serve time isn't it? What about eggs? Eggs cooked at 63C for 60 minutes aren't pasteurized are they? But they are safe to eat immediately right? I'm reading and trying to make sense of everything on Baldwin's site but I'm also trying to make sense of all of the new terms in my head and look to you guys for confirmation that I'm understanding it.

Not everything needs to be pasteurized if you are to consume immediately (or within 4 hours). Whole muscle cuts of beef, like steak are fine - as long as you give it a surface sear which will kill all surface bacteria. The theory is that the interior of whole muscle cuts (meat that hasn't been punctured) are considered sterile, but the surface may be contaminated. BTW - while doing this, I would recommend searing before SV - as many times, low temperature baths for rare steak are like incubators for bacteria - so you'd want to kill any surface bacteria before hitting the bath. Some people drop the bagged steak in boiling water for a short time... but personally, I'm a fan of the pre and post sear. Pre for bacteria, post for flavor/color.Other foods, like poultry, should be pasteurized regardless of when you plan on consuming it.I think the rule of thumb with pasteurization would go along with whether you would consider eating the same item raw. So steak, for instance, can be eaten as tartare, so you wouldn't need to pasteurize other than the surface. I don't know anyone who would ever consider eating raw chicken.

Just a couple of comments. The Japanese have a number of raw chicken dishes. And more importantly one needs to be aware that steaks are now frequently jaccarded (pierced all over with very fine blades to cut the muscle fibres) prior to sale to tenderise them. This is not always obvious but it suggests that one needs to know the provenance of one's steaks before assuming that they don't require pasteurization.

Right - I thought about explicitly mentioning the industrial jaccarding, but didn't - I alluded to it when I mentioned "meat that hasn't been punctured" but I should have been more explicit, so thanks for pointing that out. With regards to the chicken, while I know there are a few cultures that eat raw poultry, I'm not sure if they're doing that at home, or only in restaurants that know exactly when and how the chicken was slaughtered, gutted, etc to minimize the chances of bacterial problems. And I have no idea how popular those dishes are - do people eat them all the time or is it only once in a long while? Just like with sushi - you can't just go to your local market, pick up a piece of salmon fillet or something and assume it is sushi grade and safe for raw consumption. Nothing is impossible, but I have a hard time believing that people are going to their local market, picking up some chicken that may have been sitting there for a few days, and consuming it raw.

Regarding the question about pasteurization time - the pasteurization time is a constant for a given core temperature and bacteria type. What varies is the amount of time it takes the core to get to that temperature - which varies primarily by thickness/shape. Douglas Baldwin makes it easy by incorporating pasteurization time into some of the tables - but I think early-on NathanM posted a table of pasteurization times by temperature that you could add to the time it takes to reach core temperature.

If you have an iOS device, I would highly recommend downloading the SousVideDash app - designed by an EGullet member and fellow sous vide enthusiast Vengroff. It is not expensive, and it makes the problem of cooking times, pasteurization, etc. a non-issue as the app calculates everything for you. All you need to do is enter in the type of protein, desired core temp, bath temp, food shape and thickness, and you're ready to go.

ETA: Yes, shape matters. I don't believe NathanM went into detail about it in the early tables, but if memory serves, it was address in Modernist Cuisine. It is also addressed in the Sous Vide Dash app. The early nathanm tables assumed an infinite plane of a certain thickness (like a slab) - which is the worst case scenario. If you are using the same bath temp as core temp, then this is a good figure to use at will ensure that the core is what you think it is. Other shapes will reduce the need for as long of a cooking time to come to temp. Shape becomes much more critical if you're doing gradient cooking - your core temp is lower than your bath temp. Some people prefer this method for certain foods that they don't want to be 100% even... personally, I do that when I cook fatty fish - like salmon. I use a bath temp of 115F, but shoot for a core temp of 102F - it comes out just how I like it every time, plus it makes the cooking time quite a bit shorter. But that is much trickier to figure without the app.

Cooking multiple bags does not affect anything so long as you have decent water flow around each of the bags - they shouldn't be stacked up touching each other. As long as your water can flow around each bag, and your heater can remedy the initial temp drop in a short amount of time it's fine.

Thank you so much for all of that info!

I will look into the app, but I heard the cooking times tend to be longer than they need to be compared to the various charts on this site.

I have one more question about thost NathanM charts. I see it starts with a steak at 41F and then gives bath temperature and time needed to cook to reach approx. 130F.

For one, how do I check that the steak is at 41F. I use a thermometer like the thermapen and check the raw steak's core temperature by putting it in it right? Or can I/am I supposed to use an infared surface thermometer?

I also understand that if I start with a steak that is 51F and I want it to be at a core temperature of 140F then I still use the same exact cook times and obviously adjust the waterbath temperature. Now, what if I start with a steak that is 51F or higher (room temperature) and still want it to be at a core temperature of 130F. The cook time is decreased, correct? But, how do I figure out the perfect cook time? A math equation?

I hate math. Instead of that, can I just let it cook for the same length of time as if it started at 41F? It can't overcook right? The only problem with letting it sit at that temperature longer would be that it "dries out" a little or somehow negatively affects the meat? In sous vide you want to cook something in the waterbath for as short as you need to to achieve the desired core temperature and safety precautions right? Letting the meat sit at core temperature of 130F for longer because it started higher than 41F just means it is slightly pasteurizing?

NathanM's cooking time on his charts seem to differ significantly from Dr. Baldwin's cooking times on his charts (his non-pasteurization chart, table 2.2). Dr. Baldwin's "from frozen" charts look incredibly helpful.

Do I seem to be grasping more of this?

[Baselerd]

A very cheap and small "vacuum" pump I would reccomend is the ziploc hand pump. You won't be able to do any fancy compression or anything, but it will be enough to get most of the air out of the bag with liquid or solid foods.

[dcarch]

A very cheap and small "vacuum" pump I would reccomend is the ziploc hand pump. You won't be able to do any fancy compression or anything, but it will be enough to get most of the air out of the bag with liquid or solid foods.

Or you can do what I do, use any car tire pump, glue a small tube to the air intake, and you will have a fast and powerful vacuum pump. You can still use it to inflate tires.

dcarch

[Leigh Jones]

"jjahorn wrote:

The PID is from a German company (Pohl) the controller is called A-senco TR11. The technical specs say display resolution 1C, measuring resolution 0.1C.

This may not be correct information for your PID controller, but many PID controllers have two ways that temperatures can be displayed for PT100 sensors. Typically you'd select between the two display modes by selecting either the PT100 sensor option for 1 degree display resolution and alternatively select sensor type PT10.0 for a PT100 sensor in 0.1 degree display resolution mode.

[Leigh Jones]

Steak and fish sauce.

MC recommends brushing fish sauce on steak for and letting it rest for 72 before cooking, if I'm going to cook flank steak for 18 hours can I brush it on and include the cooking time in the marinading time? e.g. I brush in on and let it rest for 54 hours, then cook it for 18. Will the cooking change the flavor of the fish sauce?

Of course, fish sauce is used to provide umami (savory). Per most recommendations, the most effective umami is a combination of sources of umami in lieu of a single one. That means not just fish sauce but also some combination of tomatoes, mushrooms, yeast extract, seaweed extract, Maillard reaction, garlic, onions, cheese, fats, etc., even salt and pepper, depending on the recipe. The 72 hour thing isn't critical. For sous vide, there would be some tendency for exuded juices to rinse added flavorings away, so perhaps it's more effective to add umami flavorings after the water bath.

[rotuts]

the jus extruded if not too salty might make a fine sauce w some butter added !

[Leigh Jones]

SV of a whole turkey would be a problem as far as I can see. Dark meat takes one temp, white another.

It's a simple matter. Break down the turkey into component pieces -- leg and thigh together, boneless split breasts, wings, carcass. Set the carcass aside with giblets to make stock later. Brine the prime pieces overnight and discard the brine. Season (no salt at this time) and put the bagged legs and thighs into the water bath first at 67C 153F for 3 hours. Set the temperature to 60 C 140 F. Allow the water bath to come to a few degrees above the new temperature or add some cool water to accelerate the process. Add the bagged breasts to the water bath and cook for 4-6 more hours. Make a roux. Add water and bring to a boil. Boil the carcass, skin, and giblets with carrots, celery, onions, and bell peppers cut into 1/2 cm 1/4" cubes. Reduce and season to make a gravy, removing the carcass when appropriate. Remove the legs/thighs/wings and allow them to cool for perhaps 15 minutes. Preheat the broiler or grill, Season the skin on the legs, thighs, and wings and commit to the broiler until browned. Remove and rest. Remove and un-bag the breasts and slice thinly, then season and dress the slices with gravy. Similarly, slice and dress the thighs and legs from the bones to provide dark meat.

[bonkboo]

Can I use a sous vide machine to make cheese? I read a recipe that said hold water temp constant. And I got thinking about sv.

[Anna N]

Can I use a sous vide machine to make cheese? I read a recipe that said hold water temp constant. And I got thinking about sv.

A while back I made cheese using my Demi as the water bath with the milk in a tall stainless steel stock pot and it worked well to maintain a constant temperature. Given the need for strict sterilization of anything in contact with the milk, I am not sure how any of the SV units I have seen could be kept clean and sterilized. I am not saying it can't be done. I hope others will chime in with their experiences

[Leigh Jones]

Can I use a sous vide machine to make cheese? I read a recipe that said hold water temp constant. And I got thinking about sv.

A sous vide method for sterilizing the milk at the early stages of cheese making would definitely work for tiny batches, but most cheese recipes call for larger quantities of milk, so as to produce uniform curd sizes with familiar rates of evaporation, aeration, etc., resulting in cheese that is true to the traditional flavor. For the larger quantities of milk, bagging and bathing is less attractive than adding some degree of process control to large closed vessels. A PID controller might be of value, but a 10 gallon vat of liquid or larger has a great deal of thermal mass, making heating by flame attractive. Of course, many traditional cheeses are made without reliance on that degree of sterility. After the milk is reduced to a curd and the process becomes one of drying and curing, maintaining controlled conditions for flavor and texture control is important, but this must be done in an atmosphere rather than under water.

[Martin Fisher]

Squeaky cheese curds in the Sous Vide Supreme.........

http://www.chefsteps.com/activities/squeaky-cheese-curds

[rotuts]

very interesting wonder why all the flipping of the strands.

you might be able to do this in a regular SV bath with an plastic insert of some sort that would float on the water bath.