Creme brulee cooked on a cake.

[Tri2Cook]

If chef considers following his idea to the letter more important than the result then you're in a tough position. If you're baking the cake, pouring on a custard base and baking again, the cake is being overbaked. It's also going to leach moisture from the custard base changing the texture of both the cake and the resulting custard. If chef refuses to budge on this, maybe use Jaymes' idea of the custard cake, bake them in individual serving dishes and cover the top of each ramekin with a premade sugar disc before serving. The custard will be on the bottom but they'll be baked together since that seems to be the party trick he wants. I don't know the situation you're working in or I'd suggest diplomatically telling chef that people have to eat my dessert so it's more important to me that they enjoy eating it than be amazed because they were baked together.

[Jaymes]

I realize that the Chocolate Flan Cake isn't what your chef wants on several levels, but since we've been talking about it, and since you asked if the layers remain separate and distinct, thought I'd google a few images:

Chocolate Flan Cake

ETA - Since I have no idea as to the level of experience/expertise your chef possesses, I can't help but wonder if he actually has some information about Creme Brulee baked on top of a cake, or if he saw one of these Mexican "impossible" cakes somewhere, and then extrapolated.

In particular, if he had caught a glimpse of these, and didn't realize they're "upside down" flan cakes, he might have thought it'd be nice with vanilla cake and creme brulee:

Individual flan cakes

.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Jaymes (log)

[Kerry Beal]

Googling Leche Flan Cake will get you the white cake versions of what Jaymes has linked to. And now I want to make this!

Edited March 10, 2012 by Kerry Beal (log)

[Karri]

I think the water bath is agood idea, if you make a very light genoise, pour the creme pat on the bottom, and cover it up to where the creme pat is in water, and then you put your genoise mix on top of this and bake high. You could try making it cold water, this would possibly result in only the part above water being cooked, since genoise generally doesn't need a long time to cook.

edit: and since the genoise mix is lighter than the creme patissier, it would not mix. So a marriage of all the brain storming here.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Karri (log)

[AAQuesada]

If chef considers following his idea to the letter more important than the result then you're in a tough position. If you're baking the cake, pouring on a custard base and baking again, the cake is being overbaked. It's also going to leach moisture from the custard base changing the texture of both the cake and the resulting custard. If chef refuses to budge on this, maybe use Jaymes' idea of the custard cake, bake them in individual serving dishes and cover the top of each ramekin with a premade sugar disc before serving. The custard will be on the bottom but they'll be baked together since that seems to be the party trick he wants. I don't know the situation you're working in or I'd suggest diplomatically telling chef that people have to eat my dessert so it's more important to me that they enjoy eating it than be amazed because they were baked together.

Agreed, do it in a way that works. Present it to him, let him taste it, then tell him how you made it. If he really wants it done in a specific way request a recipe (polite way of saying put up or shut up). I'm guessing he really won't care, it doesn't sound like he has much knowledge of the pastry kitchen. If he does want to know why you didn't do it the way he suggested just be honest, give him the issues and the solution. Most Chefs are happy to be presented with a good product and not more problems!

Edited March 10, 2012 by AAQuesada (log)

[Tweety69bird]

If chef considers following his idea to the letter more important than the result then you're in a tough position. If you're baking the cake, pouring on a custard base and baking again, the cake is being overbaked. It's also going to leach moisture from the custard base changing the texture of both the cake and the resulting custard. If chef refuses to budge on this, maybe use Jaymes' idea of the custard cake, bake them in individual serving dishes and cover the top of each ramekin with a premade sugar disc before serving. The custard will be on the bottom but they'll be baked together since that seems to be the party trick he wants. I don't know the situation you're working in or I'd suggest diplomatically telling chef that people have to eat my dessert so it's more important to me that they enjoy eating it than be amazed because they were baked together.

Without being disrespectful to my chef, I would jusy say that everyone has painted a prett good picture of his character and knowlege. I believe he saw this dessert at a previus restaurant that he (not I) worked at and wants to recreate it, without a recipe of course.

He was adamant of the two layers being baked together, and I completely agree that if the cake is solid enough to support the brulee mix, it's going to overcook. I think Jaymes' idea would look elegant on the plate, especially with a pretty sugar disk on top. That will have to wait for one of my dinner parties though..

[Tweety69bird]

I realize that the Chocolate Flan Cake isn't what your chef wants on several levels, but since we've been talking about it, and since you asked if the layers remain separate and distinct, thought I'd google a few images:

Chocolate Flan Cake

ETA - Since I have no idea as to the level of experience/expertise your chef possesses, I can't help but wonder if he actually has some information about Creme Brulee baked on top of a cake, or if he saw one of these Mexican "impossible" cakes somewhere, and then extrapolated.

In particular, if he had caught a glimpse of these, and didn't realize they're "upside down" flan cakes, he might have thought it'd be nice with vanilla cake and creme brulee:

Individual flan cakes

.

These look to be exactly what he is looking for! Fantastic, thank you Jaymes!!

[JeanneCake]

Ask your chef to buy one of the flexipan sheets of bundt shapes and try the flipped flan cake method....

[Tweety69bird]

Googling Leche Flan Cake will get you the white cake versions of what Jaymes has linked to. And now I want to make this!

Kerry, I think this is the ticket! Thank you for taking Jaymes' idea and running with it! I'm going to find a recipe and make it. Pictures will be taken of course!

Thank you everyone, once again, you guys are all the best!!!

[Tweety69bird]

So, I've decided on this recipe and will make it tomorrow, so I'll have feedback tomorrow night.

Question: Do you think that if I eliminate the caramel layer on the bottom of the pan, that the custard will a) come out nice and dry so I can caramelize it, a la minute, and b) come out in one piece, or is the caramel layer important for eliminating the sticking factor. Do you think that a parchment layer would do the trick?

Thank you! I'm excited to make this!!

[Kerry Beal]

So, I've decided on this recipe and will make it tomorrow, so I'll have feedback tomorrow night.

Question: Do you think that if I eliminate the caramel layer on the bottom of the pan, that the custard will a) come out nice and dry so I can caramelize it, a la minute, and b) come out in one piece, or is the caramel layer important for eliminating the sticking factor. Do you think that a parchment layer would do the trick?

Thank you! I'm excited to make this!!

I suspect the caramel layer is necessary to allow the release. When you make leche flan the caramel allows that - and I know regular custard doesn't come easily out of the dish. But it's worth a trial of parchment to see if it will work.

[pastrygirl]

I suspect the caramel layer is necessary to allow the release. When you make leche flan the caramel allows that - and I know regular custard doesn't come easily out of the dish. But it's worth a trial of parchment to see if it will work.

The caramel layer would definitely help, OTOH, I've made cheesecake in a regular cake pan and it unmolds fine once it is well chilled and solid. The solidity of the custard may be a factor, and may require either very thorough chilling or a slight reduction in liquid/increase in egg (especially whites) to solidify.

Once upon a time I did a banana genoise with a layer of spiced creme brulee baked on top. The main problem I had was the cake wanted to float, I never thought about baking it with the cake on top. Anyway, I did not find that the cake overcooked, because it was soaked with custard which either insulated it or just made it so moist you couldn't tell. It makes sense that your stovetop custard ended up curdled after baking - custards are delicate, the eggs simply didn't need to be cooked twice. The addition of starch a la pastry cream will inhibit curdling, but of course affect the texture.

Good luck with your chef, it is hard to create something according to some one else's vision, especially when that some one else doesn't really know how baking works.

Edited March 13, 2012 by pastrygirl (log)

[Tweety69bird]

Good luck with your chef, it is hard to create something according to some one else's vision, especially when that some one else doesn't really know how baking works.

Oooh pastrygirl, you summed it up perfectly.

Ok, so tonight wasn't a complete success, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.. sort of.

I made the Leche Flan Chiffon Cake at work as planned. The obstacles I had was that the 'cake' pan I had was only 1" high and in hindsight I should've taken a hotel pan but i was trying to come up with straight edges and was over thinking things. Anyhow, I took the 12" pan, lined it with parchment and also made a collar of about 3" around.

I made both components and poured the custard batter in the base. It was very thin and I could see that it had picked up one edge of the bottom parchment. I should have started over, but I thought giving it a convincing rub would keep the parchment flat on the bottom. I put it into a bain marie to bake, and while it was cooking, the cake was too heavy fr the collar and it flopped over on one side. There wasn't much I could do at that point, so I let it finish baking, removed it, let it cool and trimmed off the excess cake.

When I flipped the cake out, it came out very easily, with the parchment paper layer, however about 1/2 of the custard had baked UNDER the parchment.

It bruléed ok, not perfect but the chef is only concerned about having the right height of custard on the cake. I asked the chef if I could do it with the caramel layer, solving one big issue for me, but that isn`t an option.

I do have a picture for you to see. You can see the two layers are clearly defined. It's exactly what the chef wants, just more custard layer.

Tomorrow I am going to redo it, using my cake pans from home, and making sure that the parchment is as stuck to the bottom as possible.

Do you guys have any advice?

Thank you all!!

[Tweety69bird]

OMIGOD I just had a lightbulb go off in my head!!! I`m going to use a springform pan to make tomorrow`s cake, and trap the parchment in the base ring so the mix can`t seep underneath.

YAHOO!!!!

[Jaymes]

You know what...

This has been really fun.

Thanks.

[Tri2Cook]

Looks like it's working out pretty nicely. I still think chef is just f'ing with you 'cause he can. Every solution to every problem you encounter is "no, I think it was done this way at (whatever restaurant he snagged it from) so that is how it will be done here". Capturing the parchment under the ring in a springform will solve the custard problem, I've done it. Not for the same purpose you are but the paper does stay in place. Anyway, looks like you're doing an awesome job solving a problem that could have easily been solved days ago if you were working for someone a little more open-minded to the ideas of others. Sincere good luck on getting the result you need to make him happy.

[Lisa Shock]

Looks like it's working out pretty nicely. I still think chef is just f'ing with you 'cause he can. Every solution to every problem you encounter is "no, I think it was done this way at (whatever restaurant he snagged it from) so that is how it will be done here". Capturing the parchment under the ring in a springform will solve the custard problem, I've done it. Not for the same purpose you are but the paper does stay in place. Anyway, looks like you're doing an awesome job solving a problem that could have easily been solved days ago if you were working for someone a little more open-minded to the ideas of others. Sincere good luck on getting the result you need to make him happy.

I'd love to know why he's so attached to this since most customers won't even recognize this as a big technical achievement. That and has anyone pointed out that while the custard is optimally served cold, cake is not at its best when chilled?

[HowardLi]

Not sure if anybody else had mentioned this, but liquid creme brulee can be set without further cooking.

See here:

[David1973]

Bake the cake and cool.

Brush the surface of the cake the custard will come in contact with egg yolk

Grill that surface cooking the yolk this will give you a good barrier.

Make creme brûlée mix on stovetop over Bain Marie

Cook out throurougly about 82 degrees c.

Use agar agar or gelatin to gain a little extra strength in your custard, pass custard through

A fine chinois

Place cold cake into ring form lined with acetate , pour in custard mix

and set in fridge min 6-8hours .

Remove ring and peal of the acetate

Make a caramel disc to place on top of brûlée cake or spun sugar or praline

Hope this helps

[Tweety69bird]

I'd love to know why he's so attached to this since most customers won't even recognize this as a big technical achievement. That and has anyone pointed out that while the custard is optimally served cold, cake is not at its best when chilled?

He doesn't want to hear any reasoning about anything, he just wants it done. Believe me I tried.

[Tweety69bird]

Bake the cake and cool.

Brush the surface of the cake the custard will come in contact with egg yolk

Grill that surface cooking the yolk this will give you a good barrier.

Make creme brûlée mix on stovetop over Bain Marie

Cook out throurougly about 82 degrees c.

Use agar agar or gelatin to gain a little extra strength in your custard, pass custard through

A fine chinois

Place cold cake into ring form lined with acetate , pour in custard mix

and set in fridge min 6-8hours .

Remove ring and peal of the acetate

Make a caramel disc to place on top of brûlée cake or spun sugar or praline

Hope this helps

I will keep this in mind, great idea! Hey, that was your first post! Welcome to eGullet!

Great video HowardLi, thanks!

[Tri2Cook]

That's basically what I suggested other than pouring it directly on the cake. Molding it seperately allows for a cleaner finish. There's always a little space between a baked cake and the pan, the custard will run down and the entire cake will be encased in it. Not necessarily a bad thing but it won't look like what chef is asking for. Stabilized with gelatin and/or agar (or other hydrocolloids), there's no need for any sort of barrier. Poured over a cold cake and refrigerated, it will set quickly enough that the cake won't absorb it.

It sounds like you're working hard to make him happy and keeping a good attitude about it, that's awesome. It's a shame he's decided he's beyond learning. I hope that never happens to me.

[Tweety69bird]

It sounds like you're working hard to make him happy and keeping a good attitude about it, that's awesome. It's a shame he's decided he's beyond learning. I hope that never happens to me.

Thank you so much for your kind words, Tri2Cook. I try to be positive, and it's out of my control anyway, he is the chef and in the end, I have to do what he says. No point in getting all discouraged.. but it's dissapointing to continuously fail in his eyes, with all the attempts I've done.

The final chapter in this saga is that he finally - with the help of the sous chef - has agreed to me making the cake & creme brulee seperately and mounting them together at plating.. Can you believe it? He didn't like the texture of the custard in the Leche Flan Cake. I wish he could have agreed to that from the beginning, but alas I learned about the Leche Flan Cake and got some great ideas from everyone here. Thank you all again!!!

[sculptor]

Adding a moisture barrier is what I would try but instead of a layer of some fat, how about some sheets of buttered phyllo dough.

[Kouign Aman]

Pictures? Please?