Kitchen geometry and fatal flaws

[Mjx]

What, if anything, would you change about the geometry and layout of your kitchen, to improve its efficiency and safety?

Reading the 'Kitchen injuries' thread left me thinking about home kitchen design.

We routinely work with very hot, sharp, heavy, and delicate objects in our kitchens, but most seem designed with an eye to looks/industry tradition, rather than ergonomics and functionality. I'm not talking about kitchens that have been crammed in wherever they would fit, and are consequently poorly located/microscopic, I'm talking about kitchens in decent-sized spaces designated for this specific purpose.

My biggest gripes are with surface heights and lighting. Cutting or lifting, or even grating, become more complicated when your elbows are raised halfway to your shoulders, or you're practically bent double over your task, as you compensate for a 'standard' surface that's too high or too low.

Kitchens that have only overhead lighting are problematic (and seem fairly common), since they almost inevitably cause your upper body to cast a shadow on the task at hand: annoying at best, at worst, you're squinting about, wondering where the tip of your thumb ended up, as you try to not bleed all over dinner.

In our kitchen, I'd love to rip away the blocks and panels that were used to raise the counter surface about half a foot/15 cm, and restore the original 1953 counter height (unfortunately not an option at the moment, since our flat is for sale).

How about you?

[Genkinaonna]

Take out all of the cabinets and put in a combo of open shelving and drawers, knock out the wall between the kitchen and the downstairs bathroom,pull out the toilet and sink and make said bathroom into a walk in pantry. Pull out the tile counter and put in slab granite, add a griddle to the stove (which I guess would mean pulling out the counters to accomodate a bigger stove) and hire someone to clean up when I'm done cooking!

[Chris Amirault]

Sure, I'd like some new stuff in it, but after four decades of frustration over kitchen layout, I would like to say that I'm finally in a kitchen in which my answer is:

I would change nothing.

[TongoRad]

The only thing I'd change is my range hood- it's not strong enough, nor does it cover the front burners all the way, nor (and this what is critical, to me) is it high enough above the cooking surface). So if I'm cooking pasta in a tall stockpot I have barely enough room to lift the pasta out of the water and into the sauce on the adjacent burner. Really annoying, especially if I have to use tongs on the longer pastas like linguine. If we ever re-do the place that will be my #1 concern.

[Lisa Shock]

Most of my countertops have a rounded edge to the lip that also curves slightly upwards. These are old laminate counters, that are fairly thin on the edge of the underside and then have a gap between the lip and the cupboards. Basically, it's impossible for me attach anything that needs to be clamped to a countertop like a pasta machine or a manual grain grinder. I got myself a little shelf to set on top of the counter to attach these devices so they stand upright, but, I am then forced to use them 8 inches higher than the counter making them uncomfortable at best. I'd love to have solid countertops with a straight edge, or a commercial steel worktable -and when I remodel that's on the top of my list!

[kayb]

I'd gut the thing and start over, knocking out a wall to triple the size while sacrificing a spare/junk room. I'd have a BIG cooktop, gas instead of electric, with a grill/griddle insert. A double oven. Granite countertops. One marble-topped counter that would be the pastry/bread center. A three-part sink, the smaller center sink for rinsing produce, etc. Countertop appliance "cupboards" that would open and allow them to slide out for use. I could accommodate those in the tripling of the counter space I have. At least two full columns of drawers. At least one base cabinet divided vertically to hold baking sheets, lids, etc. A French-door fridge with a big freezer drawer on the bottom. I'd include a big walk-in pantry, keeping me from having to traverse the den to get to the laundry room/pantry, and have a countertop extension to a bar with comfy barstools for people to sit and sip wine and keep me company while I cook.

[nakji]

My kitchen has two features that I love: It has counters perfectly at my height - I'm about 160 cm, so counter tops can sometimes be slightly too high for me - and is has a giant, Southern-exposure window that casts lots of light onto my prep space.

It has other problems, but the working design is ok. I would like to figure out how to replace the bulbs under my range hood, though. I can't stand not having a light there.

[pastameshugana]

I got blessed with a purty, roomy kitchen in the house we just bought. However, the big open space in the middle is about to give way to a prep island.

We were about to get it custom made when we found this at Sams Club. It's the perfect size, matches the decor/appliances, and has space underneath for whatever.

That with my new sani-tuff cutting board and I ought to be happy for a week or so!

Oh yeah, and I asked DW for a new range hood for my birthday. She said she would if I bought her a 60's mustang for her birthday (two weeks after mine), so we'll see how that works out.

[Mjx]

Hm... so, no one else is standing on phone books in order to ensure a decent range of elbow motion/be able to see past her hands when chopping and slicing? I'm not even that short (158 cm/5'2"), but average kitchen counters are just a bit too high (yet I've nicked my scalp by cracking my head on the corner of the exhaust hood).

[onrushpam]

I'd make mine wide enough to allow a full-size fridge, instead of counter-depth. And, I'd figure out a way to have a range hood instead of a down-draft.

[Darienne]

Our kitchen, built by DH into a large pre-existing room which was an apiary attached to an old farmhouse, is a small galley which was perfect...in my former life which ended about four years ago when I discovered 'cooking'. Now it's too d*amned small.

However, DH has lowered all the prefab counters and the stove by a couple of inches for me because I have long arms and I'm not too tall (no rude jokes please; it's not really noticeable) and also he built in spot lights right where they are most needed.

And he built me a table with a large marble inset which is even lower than the counters and it's perfect for me to work on.

Dear DH. :wub:

[Pierogi]

I would start with a thermonuclear strike, or an incidiary device, to obliterate the existing room, and then go from there . Seriously. The basic triangle is OK, and I really don't mind having that area as "compact" as it is. But I only have about 4 feet of useable counter space, and the top cabinets are hung way too low, so I can't tip up a 10 or 12 inch fry/saute pan into something on the counter without hitting the bottom of the upper cabinets. I've got a decent amount of cabinet space, but only 5 drawers, 2 of which are like 12 inches deep. One works for towels, the other is an untameable mess of a seldom-used and bulky utensils drawer. The other utensils are all in jars & mugs in an otherwise unuseable corner under the windows behind the sink, which is set on an angle, into the corner of the 2 counters. There is no other good use for that space, so aside from looking cluttered, that's actually an OK solution. And I am 6'3" tall, so my counters are way, way, WAY too low for me. They were obviously built for a far more petite person than I. They could be a good 6 inches higher without my complaining.

Edited February 16, 2011 by Pierogi (log)

[nakji]

But I only have about 4 feet of useable counter space, and the top cabinets are hung way too low, so I can't tip up a 10 or 12 inch fry/saute pan into something on the counter without hitting the bottom of the upper cabinets.

This would be a serious problem for me. I have a dedicated wok-tipping space on my stove. But at least you have usable cupboards.

... And I am 6'3" tall, so my counters are way, way, WAY too low for me. They were obviously built for a far more petite person than I. They could be a good 6 inches higher without my complaining.

Maybe kitchen counters are like trouser legs? Off the rack they don't fit anyone right? Someone should invent an adjustable platform to go over top of counters that can be raised and lowered.

[Mjx]

. . . . I am 6'3" tall, so my counters are way, way, WAY too low for me. They were obviously built for a far more petite person than I. They could be a good 6 inches higher without my complaining.

That's exactly the sort of thing I mean!

I have a couple of friends who are well over six feet tall, and (I'm seeing this more and more, as they move deeper into their 30s/40s) often watched them sort of crouch over the stove or counter, then begin to straighten out, and have to pause to clutch the lower back, which went into spasm as they were chopping or stirring... not the sort of thing you want have happen as you're hoisting something heavy and blisteringly hot. Kitchen-surface heights seem inadequate for both ends of the height spectrum. When we installed out new stove, we decided to get a stovetop, and were able to install it at whatever height we wished (it's quite low, since I'm short, and my boyfriend isn't particularly tall). But that's the only bit of the kitchen that 'fits' me.

[Angela Knipple]

We're actually in the middle of our kitchen remodel. We added much-needed space to our kitchen so that we can actually have storage. When we bought the house, the only truly usable cabinet and counter space was on the built-in butler pantry (about 5 linear feet). For my DH and me, most things have been pretty easy to agree on, but counter height does tend to be an issue for us since we both cook, normally together. I'm 5'2" and he's 6', so standard countertops are a little too high for me and a little too low for him. But since there's really not a solution for that other than his-and-her kitchens, we've learned to compromise. If we're going to be working at the counter for an extended period (Christmas baking), I wear my kitchen clogs as much for the little bit of extra height as for the comfort. A thick chopping block gives him the height he wants. So, even though it still won't be perfect, at least we'll have room now to keep the pots and pans actually in the kitchen, along with a second sink, room for a commercial refrigerator, and a range and wok burner with an exhaust fan to handle it. The only other things I would really like to change would require serious structural changes to the house - changing the upstairs staircase landing to make the kitchen more open to the dining room and the downstairs landing to make the basement more accessible from the kitchen so that we would use it more for root vegetable and wine storage.

[rooftop1000]

I thought of this thread last night when my husband cought me sighing at granite counter commercial on TV. We have actually done quite a bit to the kitchen since I moved in, but I wouldn't call it a single remodel.

We replaced a "furniture like" cabinet with a dishwasher and smaller cabinet and lopped the bottoms off a couple of uppers that actually went all the way to the counter top. We measured for the new counter ourselves by adding up the width of the dishwasher and the cabinet and ordered custom from Home Depot. The best part was that the seam was now going to be on the other side of the room away from the cutting area...the worst part was that we didnt include the extra inch we needed to open the dishwasher door after putting it in a corner, so the counter top is short on one end DOH.

A few years later we replaced the fridge with a nice stainless steel model that opens in the correct direction for the layout LOL And a few more years later we got a beautiful stainless 5 burner stove. At some point I planned on replacing the rest of the cabinets to match the new one but they dont carry it anymore...so I have 3 different kinds in there and the ceilings are maybe 7 ft tall so the uppers are so low the toaster oven is roasting the varnish off the cabinet above it....oh and there is a window over the stove and a door next to it so that is my Ventilation for cooking.

Oh well most people walk in and say Nice Stove...not WTF were you thinking so...

tracey

Edited February 16, 2011 by rooftop1000 (log)

[Darienne]

For the jars and suchlike one the counter, you might buy at carousel. I was lucky to find a mega-carousel at a second hand store which the store was using to sell their wares and bullied the man into selling it to me. His wife would never have sold it to me.

As for the height of our counters. I should have added that the sink side of our gallery kitchen was left at the original height and Ed works on one of the two small spaces on that side.

It was a very tall friend, years ago, who had her counters put up higher who gave me the courage to ask my own DH to lower ours. Go for it, tall ladies.

[Special K]

I'd gut the thing and start over, knocking out a wall to triple the size while sacrificing a spare/junk room.

Kayb, you can design my kitchen any time! I only wish I had a spare/junk room to sacrifice - I'd do it in a minute. All of your suggestions are wonderful.

[Lisa Shock]

Oh yeah when I remodel, I am taking a radical approach by having a furnished kitchen. I am going to tile the floors and the walls all the way to the ceiling with white ceramic tile or, if I can still get it, steel tile. The sink will be the only fixed installation -a small commercial 3 compartment with a dishwasher snuggled under the drainboard on one side. Normal appliances, sadly enough there's no gas here, the best I can afford. And, my dream setup of no cupboards. That's right, no fixed kitchen cupboards. I'm going to buy steel prep tables, metro shelving, cages, and free-standing steel cabinets for storage -all just like work. The advantage is that I can change shelf heights, counter heights and furniture placement whenever I want, and, some of these items are really cheap. (I can get an all steel table with a shelf underneath for under $200.)

I plan to do this within the next 2 years.

[Darienne]

The floors tiled? Beautiful, but is that not very hard on the legs and feet?

Just asking...

[Mjx]

The floors tiled? Beautiful, but is that not very hard on the legs and feet?

Just asking...

Rubber mat? It sounds like she has some good restaurant supply connections.

[Lisa Shock]

The anti-fatigue mats are pretty easy to find, Amazon lots of options.

[IndyRob]

A few years ago we gutted and completely remodeled our kitchen. It got us a lot more cabinet space, but that was soon filled up and we wound up with crowded unmanageamle cabinets again. But recently I realized there was a simple solution to much of this. More shelves.

Usually, cabinets come with two or three shelves. And as we were finsihing the kitchen by installing the shelves, we tended to space them equadistantly and figured out what went where later.

Just adding one or two shelves and optimizing their spacing based on what was stored on each shelf made a huge difference. It has eliminated a lot of stacking of bowls and whatnot. Once I get around to the cabinet with all the sheet pans, cookie sheets, pizza pans, etc., we may have as many as 15 shelves in one base cabinet.

[andiesenji]

The anti-fatigue mats are pretty easy to find, Amazon lots of options.

They also have some fairly large ones at Sam's Club and at Costco. I have a couple that are now somewhat "distressed" and need to be replaced.

They also have smaller ones, 20 x 60 and 20 x 36 - the "Gelpro" brand.

Edited February 16, 2011 by andiesenji (log)

[Kouign Aman]

Double the space between fridge and stove, so I could unload all needed ingredients onto it.

Under cabinet lighting.

Raise the cabinets 4", make then 2" deeper, and one shelf higher.

Make entire kitchen 18" wider so that two people who are not in love can still work in it together.