The dismal state of the New York City liquor market

[Fat Guy]

No cocktailian am I, but recently I was drafted to work on a cocktail project because compared to the average person I know something. I always sort of knew that it was hard to get good cocktail stuff in New York City, but now after spending the weekend in search of ingredients I'm simply appalled at the state of affairs.

General liquor isn't much of a problem. The good liquor stores seem to have decent selections of gin, Bourbon, whatever. As long as you're not totally wedded to a particular brand, you can get something good in most any price range.

Specialty liquors are a little more difficult to find.

Liqueurs, forget about it. I haven't been to a single store that has what seems like a great selection. Even Astor, which has the largest selection I saw, doesn't seem to have enough stuff to stock a good bar. Where do places like Pegu get all their ingredients? FedEx?

(In my search, I've had the additional restriction of needing to use ingredients that are certified kosher, but even absent that restriction the situation doesn't seem great.)

And then, when it comes to things like bitters, the situation is alarming. Apparently you can't buy these things at liquor stores because they're considered food? That's what one clerk told me at least. Not only is that completely stupid, but also it's not like you can walk into Gourmet Garage and find six choices of bitters. You actually can't find any bitters or even a clerk who knows what bitters are.

Am I completely crazy or is it just a disaster out there?

[jk1002]

That is just asking for you to get beaten up.

You can be very happy to be in NYC with Astor. I am out in Boston and while I can find some things when running around, Astor is heaven to me compared what I have here.

Plus you have cocktail kingdom which I am thinking you can pick things up as well if you ask.

When it comes to bitters, I think one of the reasons you can't find them is that they last forever in an average household and let's not forget specialty stuff like chocolate or celery bitters, there is just not enough volume on these things, even in a large stores like Astor.

Beeing in Boston, I recently struggled to find Creme de Violette, Rittenhouse Rye, any of the Tuthilltown spirits, Luxardo Maraschino, Luxardo Maraschino cherries, Ardbeg Supernova. Thankfully my store picks these things up when you ask and they can get it. I would think if you ask the Astor guys they can get you what you need.

JK

[Moopheus]

Specialty liquors are a little more difficult to find.

If they were easy to find, they wouldn't be a specialty item, now, would they?

[KatieLoeb]

Not much sympathy coming from here in the land of the PLCB either. I'd be thrilled to have Astor at my disposal. The selection there blows away any stores in PA, and even in nearby NJ or DE.

Finding bitters here is less of a chore. There are several stores that carry most of the Fee Brothers line and Angostura can be had at any PLCB Wine & Spirits Shop and many supermarkets. Funkier specialty bitters are harder to come by, but having cocktail geek friends that make their own is a big help.

Have you looked at Kalustyan's for bitters?? At least from their online presence, it would seem they stock a pretty wide selection.

Edited February 1, 2010 by KatieLoeb (log)

[Tri2Cook]

Come to Ontario, Canada. Walk around in a LCBO for a while. Go back home, hug your local liquor store owner and tell him/her how great his/her selection is.

[Joe Blowe]

SoCal boy here, born and raised, but spent seven years living in NYC. Yes, the situation there is appalling, and it doesn't seem to have changed since I moved back to SoCal.

You're in my thoughts and prayers

[azlee]

Kalustyans and Dean & Deluca have wide selections of bitters. Union Square Wines and Spirits have most of the specialty liquors available and can order stuff in pretty quickly. Crossroads on 14th also has a decent selection of the hard to find stuff.

ETA: Stirrings Brand make kosher mixers and bitters

Edited February 1, 2010 by azlee (log)

[slkinsey]

I would actually suggest that NYC has it pretty good compared to most other locales when it comes to the liquor market. Between Astor, Warehouse, Union Square, Crossroads, Sherry-Lehmann, Park Avenue and one or two others, the selection is not bad. And it's pretty outstanding in some areas. That said, there are some notable locales that are better. California, in general, seems to have a much better liquor market, for example.

There are likely a number of reasons why the selection isn't overall better in NYC. Liquor laws and the distributors are certainly part of it. But more than anything else, it has to be simple economics. Commercial rentals in Manhattan are incredibly expensive. And that means it's prohibitively expensive to have a gigantic "liquor warehouse" type store with shelf upon shelf of every conceivable kind of booze. The stores here have to do a very careful calculus to determine whether it is worth their rent money to give the shelf space to a third brand of creme de cacao, or instead to give that shelf space to a 23rd brand of high end vodka. On a pure dollar basis, the vodka will always win, but some liquor stores make the decision that having a broader selection is enough of a "draw" to justify the shelf space for three different kinds of creme de cacao. In other cities, and especially those built around car culture, it is far less expensive to rent (or buy or even construct!) a huge warehouse store, at which point the shelf space becomes a less important economic decision. This is true of, for example, Spec's in Houston. They have an aisle of tequila that's larger than the average NYC liquor store. But there is one Spec's warehouse store in the city of Houston. That's where you have to go (in your car) if you want to buy some obscure liqueur. And if they don't have it, you're out of luck.

Where do places like Pegu get all their ingredients? FedEx?

They get it from the distributors. Bars aren't buying their booze from Astor Wines.

It gets a little complicated. In order for a given bottling to be sold in New York State it has to be on a distributor's list. Just getting a distributor to add something to their list can be a bit of a hassle. But that's only the first hurdle. After that, they have to actually stock some of that booze in their warehouse. If they don't think they can make money on it, then they won't stock it. And that means no one in the state can buy it. We went through this several years ago in trying to get Laird's bonded applejack into NYC. The good news is that, sometimes if enough bars are able to go to the distributor and tell them that they will reliably go through a certain volume, they can convince the distributor to bring in a stock of some kind of booze for them. This doesn't mean that liquor stores can get this stuff, though. The distributor has to be willing to let them have some of it (and the store has to want it as well, of course), and that might depend on whether or not the stock they have in the warehouse is already committed to the bars. If there is any kind of shortage, which happens from time to time, the distributor is probably going to give product to the bars that are burning through cases of the stuff on a weekly basis than some liquor store that sells a few cases a year. So, there will always be certain products that are much more available to bars than liquor stores. So, there has to be a stock of a certain booze in the distributor's warehouse and that booze has to be available to liquor stores, and then the liquor stores have to make the economic decision as to whether they will stock it. If no liquor stores decide to stock it, or if there simply isn't enough to go around once the bars take their product, then effectively the only place to get that booze is in a bar.

That said, most good liquor stores will be willing to pull out the book and special-order you just about anything available in the state.

Edited February 1, 2010 by slkinsey (log)

[weinoo]

That said, most good liquor stores will be willing to pull out the book and special-order you just about anything available in the state.

And that's just what my local liquor store did when I was hunting for Apry. He told me his shelf space didn't allow for non-movers (in our neighborhood, Apry isn't exactly flying off the shelves). But, he pulled his order pad out and got me six bottles no problemo.

Didn't LeNell's sell bitters? If so, I wonder how they got around the "rule?"

[lancastermike]

Not much sympathy coming from here in the land of the PLCB either. I'd be thrilled to have Astor at my disposal. The selection there blows away any stores in PA, and even in nearby NJ or DE.

Finding bitters here is less of a chore. There are several stores that carry most of the Fee Brothers line and Angostura can be had at any PLCB Wine & Spirits Shop and many supermarkets. Funkier specialty bitters are harder to come by, but having cocktail geek friends that make their own is a big help.

Have you looked at Kalustyan's for bitters?? At least from their online presence, it would seem they stock a pretty wide selection.

Just like Katie, I am stuck here in PLCB land. By use of the special order system, which is a bit of a pain and the occasional trip across the Mason-Dixon line I am able to get much of what I want for home use. Rittenhouse Rye is available by special order but there is a case minimum. I like it, but don't need a case. For Katie, trying to stock a commercial bar, it is even harder.

I have no knowledge to contribute as to the NYC availability of things. I just can't imagine it is worse, and it has to be better than most other places around the country.

Aside to Katie: I'm, looking for a bottle of Benedictine myself and would love to find a 375ML of Galiano.

Edited February 1, 2010 by lancastermike (log)

[Lindacakes]

I never thought of it as a New York problem as much as a cultural problem, at least as far as the liqueur question goes.

I drink a lot of liqueur and I make a lot of it, otherwise I buy it at Astor. There seems to be almost a taboo on drinking a light drink or a sweet drink. Too effeminate, not educated enough of a palette, whatever.

Bitters are considered a food, it has something to do with Prohibition. Prohibition gave us a variety of odd cocktail culture hangovers, the most odious of which is the maraschino cherry.

[bmdaniel]

What about Borisal in Brooklyn? I order quite a bit through their drinkupny site

[Steamtrain]

I usually hit warehouse liquors before going over to Astor. last week warehouse had rittenhouse rye and apry while astor did not have them in stock. I have also found both of thos items at Mr. wright's(UES). Kalustyan's does have a very wide variety of bitters in stock. I have been to mud puddle books and bought bitters there and at better prices than kalustyan's.

astor was selling some bitters last week when i was there. i forget which brand.

[Chris Amirault]

Who are the key NYC distributors?

[Fat Guy]

I'd love to know the answer to that question. I get the sense that there are a lot of distributors and that the better retailers are dealing with a lot of logistics in that regard. But I don't really know.

[KatieLoeb]

Aside to Katie: I'm, looking for a bottle of Benedictine myself and would love to find a 375ML of Galiano...

Mike's dilemma illustates my point about PA and the PLCB perfectly. I can get B&B here, but currently I simply can't get Benedictine in PA. The PLCB, and the IIC in Harrisburg, have "delisted" that product, so legally, no one in the Commonwealth should have a bottle, or at least be able to buy a new one. It defies all logic and reason. It will come back, eventually, but for now consumers and restaurants are just screwed.

The answer is what Mike alluded to. Cross the border into Delaware or NJ. Total Wine on Naaman's Road spitting distance over the DE border has a good selection of spirits and would have Benedictine, Galliano, Punt e Mes, etc.

You New Yorkers have it so easy. You have no idea what's it's like to live/shop in the wine and spirits Gulag that is PA...

[I_call_the_duck]

FYI, I came across this article about A.B. Smeby Bittering Company (blog article: The Bitters Maker of Brooklyn)

And as New Yorker now living in Philly, I echo the Pennsylvanians saying that you are lucky. I don't often buy spirits, but when I do, I usually go to New York (Astor or Warehouse) to stock up.

[Recoil Rob]

Not NYC but many years ago (back when you could by 1963 ports for under $10) I worked at Zachy's in Scarsdale. We were then, and I'm sure they are now, happy to order any single bottle of spirits available. The idea is to think ahead, order, and order a backup for when you run out.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Recoil Rob (log)

[Mayur]

Yeah, no offense FG, but I think you're just off base.

Astor now stocks Bitter Truth bitters, BTW, and bitters in general have always been more a grocery than liquor store item. Kalustyan's has everything you would ever need on that front; hell, my local Indian grocery (Dual) has the full Fee brothers selection.

California *might* be a better market than NY (though I wonder; does all the Alpenz stuff make it out there at the same time as we get it?), but in general, Astor has pretty much anything you'd need and gaps can be filled in by a trip to another store or a special order. And I rarely see things like the full R&W range, Dolin in 375 and 750 ml sizes, or even just the crazy bourbon and scotch whisky selection in other states.

[tonyrocks922]

Most supermarkets sell bitters, near all the fake-cocktail mixes.