The Comprehensive Home-Made Fondant Discussion: Making, Using, Storing

[pastryani]

I made fondant filling today for the first time per the Greweling recipe.  The first time it was a crystally mess (someone didn't read the directions that you're not supposed to agitate the syrup during the cooling process).  The second time it looked like it's supposed to but it had a slight graininess.  So naturally, now I have a ton of Qs and was hoping someone with more fondant experience could answer them.

 

1.  I'll start with a very amateur/silly question:  A while back I made a fluid, white minty filling with powdered sugar, water, and mint essence (essentially a glaze).  It looked similar to liquid fondant but the processes to make glaze vs fondant are radically different.  So... Why do people make Fondant over a glaze when the finished product seems so similar (at least to this novice) and when one is so much faster?  Is it a shelf life thing?  Or a consistency thing? 

 

2.  Process:  What does sprinkling water on the surface before cooling do?

 

3.  Process:  The higher the temp, the stiffer the fondant becomes.  If it turns out too stiff, can you "just add water" to thin it out?  If the answer is yes, does it have to be boiled water?  Can alcohol be added in lieu of water?

 

4.  Process:  can you put the sugar syrup on ice to help cool it down faster?

 

5.  Process:  what happens if you start whipping at too high of a temp?  Does it just take longer or does it mess with the consistency?

 

6.  Troubleshooting: The fondant is grainy... Assuming the sugar syrup was fluid with no visible evidence of crystals AND assuming there was no agitation during the cooling period, what caused the crystally mouthfeel and is there any way to fix this?

 

7.  General:  Can stiff fondant be heated/microwaved to make it  pipeable?

 

8.  General:  What happens if you add  cream into the mix in place of the water in the recipe?  Essentially you'd be whipping a creamy caramel that had cooled to 120F.  Has anyone tried this before?  

 

9.  Any tips to ensure a smooth finished product?

 

Thanks all!

[Chocolot]

1. Not really sure about shelf life, but mostly a quality issue, I think.

2. Water on the surface helps the solution cool faster and if any crystals have started to form, it will dissolve them. You can watch the steam rise as you sprinkle the water.

3. if you are talking about remelting the fondant, the temperature can cause a lot of problems. It gets to a point that adding more liquid causes more problems. You want to melt it to just the right temp and no more. Yes, water works to a point. Not sure on the alcohol. A small amount is probably ok.

4. Yes. You want it to all cool to the same temp, or if it is thick and you put on ice, the bottom will cool faster. Pour as thin as possible to cool faster.

5. The warmer the solution is when you start to beat, the coarser the sugar crystals will be. The cooler, the finer. It takes longer the cooler it is. The crystals forming will give off heat and warm the mass.

6. It somehow was agitated, or didn't cool fast enough. Only solution is to recook it. it will be a darker color as the sugars will start to caramelize.

7. Rather than heat, kneading would be preferable. You might be able to add a bit of alcohol and warm slightly. 

8. Using cream or cream and milk in place of water is done all the time. It is a cream fondant. it takes longer to "set-up", but isn't as likely to get grainy. The fat in the fondant helps to keep it pliable. i would cool cream fondant to around 100F, before beating. Remember, the cooler it is the finer the grain.

A question for you. Are you beating my hand or in a machine? Machine will beat too fast, generating heat which will make your fondant grainy.

[pastryani]

Dear @Chocolot - thanks for such a thorough reply.  It's good to know all this info.

 

For: #6 - I thought the thin layer of syrup during cooling was only so it could cool faster for convenience, but it seems like it needs to cool within a certain time period in order to prevent crystallization... very interesting.

 

To answer your Q, I used the kitchen aid stand mixer on medium speed.  I can't imagine beating this by hand for 10-12 minutes.

[ElainaA]

I have used both the cream and water fondant recipes from @Chocolot's book many times with success. This year I tried the recipe in Greweling's "At Home" book - with total failure. In this recipe, unlike the recipe in the version of Chocolates and Confections meant for professionals, he has you beat the fondant in a stand mixer rather than by hand - I believe that was the major problem. This is just one of several incidences where the recipes, for what is ostensibly the same candy, vary between the two books to, in my experience, the detriment of the "At Home" variation. 

[Chocolot]

9 hours ago, pastryani said:

Dear @Chocolot - thanks for such a thorough reply.  It's good to know all this info.

 

For: #6 - I thought the thin layer of syrup during cooling was only so it could cool faster for convenience, but it seems like it needs to cool within a certain time period in order to prevent crystallization... very interesting.

 

To answer your Q, I used the kitchen aid stand mixer on medium speed.  I can't imagine beating this by hand for 10-12 minutes.

 

Probably a better term would be stirring. You don't have to stir fast, just consistently. It doesn't take too long. Be sure to use a wooden spoon or one with a thick handle. If you leave the cooled syrup for a few hours, it will start to crystalize on the bottom. Better to cool and stir sooner rather than later.

[pastryani]

@ElainaA - that is the book I used.  I didn't even consult the professional one assuming they'd be the same.  How funny.

 

@Chocolot - what is the name of your book? I think I may need to get me a copy.  

 

[ElainaA]

@pastryani  I have both of Greweling's books. I like the 'At Home" one because the quantities are what I want (40 or 50 pieces rather than 150) but when I compare similar recipes I always use the professional book. Some of the differences make sense - the various gianduja and marzipan recipes in the 'At Home' book call for purchased praline paste, almond butter or peanut butter while the professional book starts with actual nuts - many home candy makers may not want to be preparing nut pastes or butters although I do. However I don't see why the coffee ganache recipes in 'At Home' use instant coffee when those in the other book start with real, ground coffee. There are several other differences, usually small, but I think they weaken the 'At Home' book.

 

Also - @Chocolot" book is Candymaking. I think it may be out of print (@Chocolot???) but it is available on Amazon. It is very much a home candy maker's book with some excellent recipes. Besides the fondant recipes I recommend Amy's Toffee and the recipe for dipping caramel.  

Edited January 9, 2017 by ElainaA (log)

[pastryani]

Thanks @ElainaA for the info.

[Kerry Beal]

I found 3 copies of Ruth's book in my chocolate room when I started my cleanup yesterday - god knows how many copies I have tucked elsewhere around the house. I should have brought one for you last week!

[Kerry Beal]

I make fondant the lazy way - I make a bob syrup - boiled to 115º or 117º C, cool to 60º C - add a percentage of pre-make fondant - let cool. Learned from a book called Making Chocolates by Alec Leaver. I do the same with Ruth's recipe for cream fondant from her book.

[Tri2Cook]

1 hour ago, Kerry Beal said:

I make fondant the lazy way - I make a bob syrup - boiled to 115º or 117º C, cool to 60º C - add a percentage of pre-make fondant - let cool. Learned from a book called Making Chocolates by Alec Leaver. I do the same with Ruth's recipe for cream fondant from her book.

I make it the lazier way... I add it to the shopping cart on chocolat-chocolat and click "order".  

I have made it myself and I really don't mind doing it, I just don't have a good place for pouring out a big batch where it can spread thin for cooling and I probably would mind making multiple small batches.

[pastryani]

2 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

I found 3 copies of Ruth's book in my chocolate room when I started my cleanup yesterday - god knows how many copies I have tucked elsewhere around the house. I should have brought one for you last week!

 

@Kerry Beal 3 extra copies, oh my!  If you're looking to get rid of the extra copies, I'll take one off your hands.   Please message me the amount.  Thanks.

p.s. - what's a "bob syrup"?

Edited January 10, 2017 by pastryani (log)

[Kerry Beal]

1 hour ago, Tri2Cook said:

I make it the lazier way... I add it to the shopping cart on chocolat-chocolat and click "order".  

I have made it myself and I really don't mind doing it, I just don't have a good place for pouring out a big batch where it can spread thin for cooling and I probably would mind making multiple small batches.

I do have a 50 lb bucket in my chocolate room. 

[Kerry Beal]

45 minutes ago, pastryani said:

 

@Kerry Beal 3 extra copies, oh my!  If you're looking to get rid of the extra copies, I'll take one off your hands.   Please message me the amount.  Thanks.

p.s. - what's a "bob syrup"?

 

Bob syrup is just the sugar, water and glucose. You use the existing fondant to seed it.

 

 

[Jim D.]

Others beat me to recommending the "lazier" way of obtaining fondant. I get mine from L'Epicerie (they have it in small quantities and at what I consider a very reasonable price). Like Tri2Cook, I don't have a large enough marble/granite slab. Frankly, since fondant always gets flavored with something (to disguise its sweetness/blandness?), I don't see it as worth the effort. Or am I just getting lazy?

[pastryani]

Does stored fondant in a tub tend to separate like invert sugar does?  (I guess I should first ask if it's normal for invert sugar to separate, and then toss mine depending on the answer!) 

[Jim D.]

Funny you should ask that about invert. Only recently have I had it separate. I just stir it up a bit, and it seems fine. My assumption is that anything that sweet is pretty safe, but I do refrigerate mine after I open it (anything can eventually mold, right?).

 

As for fondant, I have never had it separate. It does harden after a while, but it can be softened gently.

[Kerry Beal]

Invert separates more than fondant I find.

[keychris]

invert separating is simply the sugar crystals sinking to the bottom of the solution, it hasn't gone bad

[pastrygirl]

It’s been 7 years, but fondant is timeless ...

 

Just for fun, and thinking about Easter egg fillings, I made a small batch of grewelings fondant. Yes, it was a good upper body workout but it seemed to set up. Then I started looking at other sources and found fondants with cream and butter in them, which sounds far better than just sugar. And maybe less sticky on the marble?

 

Does the presence of fat derermine what you can do with it?  Seems like a peppermint patty or cherry cordial would not have fat, but if I was adding pecans I sure wouldn’t mind a little butter. 

 

Can you layer fondants next to ganache or marzipan, or would weird things happen like the sugar in the fondant sucking the water out of ganache?  

 

Since it is mostly sugar, can I add liquid flavorings without worrying about shelf life?  Like if I finally want to make that way-better creme egg, is a little passion fruit purée in the ‘yolk’ going to go off?  

 

[Jim D.]

6 hours ago, pastrygirl said:

It’s been 7 years, but fondant is timeless ...

 

Just for fun, and thinking about Easter egg fillings, I made a small batch of grewelings fondant. Yes, it was a good upper body workout but it seemed to set up. Then I started looking at other sources and found fondants with cream and butter in them, which sounds far better than just sugar. And maybe less sticky on the marble?

 

Does the presence of fat derermine what you can do with it?  Seems like a peppermint patty or cherry cordial would not have fat, but if I was adding pecans I sure wouldn’t mind a little butter. 

 

Can you layer fondants next to ganache or marzipan, or would weird things happen like the sugar in the fondant sucking the water out of ganache?  

 

Since it is mostly sugar, can I add liquid flavorings without worrying about shelf life?  Like if I finally want to make that way-better creme egg, is a little passion fruit purée in the ‘yolk’ going to go off?  

 

I can't answer your question about fondant and migration definitively, but Peter Greweling, who appears to be the definitive source on such questions, has this to say:

 

Quote

Crystalline confections include fondant, fudge and crèmes. They are prone to moisture migration and have a relatively high Aw in the range of .75 to .80. They therefore have a tendency to lose moisture in a layered confection. Crystalline confections generally must be deposited while warm. Marzipan has a relatively high Aw of .75 to .80, and so has a tendency to lose moisture in moisture migration. The oil from the nuts also causes fat migration, softening the firmer fats around the center such as cocoa butter.

 

This is from his very helpful (and disturbing) article on layered confections. I say "disturbing" because once I read it, I had to take a new look at the layered bonbons I like to make and make some changes. Greweling recommends a layer of cocoa butter (among other choices) to separate layers that tend to migrate. So now when I put a layer of pâte de fruit (water-based) in a bonbon and want to add a ganache (with its water and fat), I paint a layer of cocoa butter on top of the PdF. I don't know if it helps, but it makes me feel better! If customers would actually eat the chocolates in the time frame suggested (I use 2-3 weeks), migration issues wouldn't be so important, but (this has been discussed repeatedly) they don't. Just last week a customer told me how much she was still enjoying the box of chocolates she had received at Christmas--she had just read the enclosed guide and decided it was time to finish the box! I tried valiantly to hide my 😱

[pastrygirl]

Jim, thanks for the article.  It is counter-intuitive to me that caramels absorbing extra moisture would crystallize rather than turn to syrup.  Sugar works in mysterious ways, maybe as one molecule is pulling in water from ganache it is also pulling water away from it's neighboring sugar molecule, causing it (the neighbor) to crystallize?  🤔

 

And now I'm curious about Aw ... I have had marzipan and ganache go off, but shouldn't a fondant center with high Aw still be ok because the rest is sugar and nothing grows in sugar?  I mean, what is the Aw of honey or jam?  Or a Cadbury creme egg, that stuff is mostly sugar but flows at room temp ...

[Jim D.]

42 minutes ago, pastrygirl said:

Jim, thanks for the article.  It is counter-intuitive to me that caramels absorbing extra moisture would crystallize rather than turn to syrup.  Sugar works in mysterious ways, maybe as one molecule is pulling in water from ganache it is also pulling water away from it's neighboring sugar molecule, causing it (the neighbor) to crystallize?  🤔

 

And now I'm curious about Aw ... I have had marzipan and ganache go off, but shouldn't a fondant center with high Aw still be ok because the rest is sugar and nothing grows in sugar?  I mean, what is the Aw of honey or jam?  Or a Cadbury creme egg, that stuff is mostly sugar but flows at room temp ...

You raise valid questions, and I agree with your logical deductions about sugar. I know that I am sometimes surprised at an Aw reading being as high as it is. I was surprised (in a different direction) when I tested my new apple pâte de fruit. It was quite fluid, and I anticipated the worst, but it turned out to be 0.53. When I have some time, I'll test pure fondant and also honey to see what their Aw is.

[Capouch]

Inspired by the awesome videos coming out of the Hercules Candy shop in Syracuse, I have connived a system to starch "print" molds for my chocolate centers.

 

I make my own fondant, and to make the "cream" centers I melt some of it with a bit of butter and other flavorings, and then drop it into my molds.

 

It has been fun and people love the candy I'm making.  However, I'm bedeviled by two issues, one of which I am desperate to solve.  Even though the fondant is perfectly smooth on the tongue ahead of heating it, some of my batches turn out with the centers grainy.

 

My protocol was originally to heat the center mixture to 140-145 F and then cast, after a discussion of temperatures on one of the Hercules videos.  Greweling says to heat to 160, so I began warming it up a bit more.  I also add a few drops of invertase to the mix.  The first few batches I made that way were fine, and I assumed the graininess was due to the lower strike temperature I followed earlier. 

 

Not.  My most recent batch turned out grainy.  

 

Will be overjoyed to consider any analysis/fixes that might be out there.  

Edited February 4 by Smithy
Adjusted title for clarity (log)

[curls]

@minas6907 has done starch molding - they advertised they sold some starch imprinters in 2018.
https://forums.egullet.org/topic/156525-starch-imprinters/#comment-2149346

 

There was some discussion of starch molding in this topic, https://forums.egullet.org/topic/84503-alcoholliqueur-filled-molded-chocolates/.

 

Are you currently starch molding? Fondant fillings can be deposited into chocolate molds... might be easier and less messy than dealing with trays of corn starch. Good luck in your chocolate and confection journey. Please post some photos of your work.