Kitchen Remodeling

[qrn]

with 1400 cfm you need at least a 12 or 14inch duct. especially if it is a long run...I have a roof mounted 1200 cfm blower that has a 10 inch and the duct is only about 5 feet long...it serves a 35k btu gas grill on the island and a 6 burner cooktop next to it..when grilling chicken and stuff its working 100% to keep the smoke alarms from going off...

Bud

[daves]

Yes 1400 cfm is on the high side, but I figured that it was better to upsize a bit than wish it was more after installation. Plus, both hoods have continuously variable fan speed control, so I should be able to set it to whatever it needs to be without being forced to got to High.

Wolf recommends 1500 cfm with the 60" range, but that would include the grill/griddle models and I'm skipping those. I also found "rules-of-thumb" that you should have 100 cfm per square foot of hood opening for hoods against the wall. I've got 11 sq ft so that works out to 1100 cfm. Finally, I'm going to attempt to protect foreheads by raising the hood a little from the recommended 30" above the counter. I'm going with 34", which raises the cfm necessary for the increased volume. Abbaka thinks that 1400 @ 34" would work well.

No pictures/drawings yet (I'll post soon), but the duct run will be short. The plan is to have a rear exit from the hood. The run will be straight through the wall to the fan, although Abbaka is recommending that I think about some duct outside to further isolate the noise. They claim the noise with the fan ~1 ft away will still be less than their internal blowers, and 5 ft away will be very quiet.

Bud, thank for the pointer on duct sizing. Abbaka recommends 10" round for 1400 cfm. I'll check with them again.

The HVAC guys have done a once over and recommend a second 8" intake (we already have a 8" for fresh air replacement). The contractor's plan is to put a second intake in parallel into the furnace plenum, and then cycle the furnace blower to come on (just like during a fresh air cycle). Our furnace can apparently move 2400 cfm, so it should be able to keep up. This will introduce tempered filtered air throughout the house when the hood is on. I am thinking of having some additional vents installed into the kitchen on the island bottom facing the range, but not sure about that yet.

One frustrating thing is the near complete lack of references on make-up air design available. HVAC guys know about this, esp the commercial kitchen guys, but general contractors tend to be clueless as well as appliance vendors. When I talked to the hood manufacturers, they were a little better, but ultimately said "Talk to your HVAC guys." If you have any references or wisdom here, it would be much appreciated!

[qrn]

thinks that 1400 @ 34" would work well.

Bud, thank for the pointer on duct sizing. Abbaka recommends 10" round for 1400 cfm. I'll check with them again.

The HVAC guys have done a once over and recommend a second 8" intake (we already have a 8" for fresh air replacement). The contractor's plan is to put a second intake in parallel into the furnace plenum, and then cycle the furnace blower to come on (just like during a fresh air cycle). Our furnace can apparently move 2400 cfm, so it should be able to keep up. This will introduce tempered filtered air throughout the house when the hood is on. I am thinking of having some additional vents installed into the kitchen on the island bottom facing the range, but not sure about that yet.

One frustrating thing is the near complete lack of references on make-up air design available. HVAC guys know about this, esp the commercial kitchen guys, but general contractors tend to be clueless as well as appliance vendors. When I talked to the hood manufacturers, they were a little better, but ultimately said "Talk to your HVAC guys." If you have any references or wisdom here, it would be much appreciated!

I forgot about thatmake up air thing, My furnace/Hw heater is in a sealed area from the rest of the house so no problems there, but a funny story,,When we got the hood/ fan unit installed the first time we used it we had a fire in the fire place and all the smoke from the fire came from the living room to the kitchen....DuHHH!!!now we make sure to crack open the window right across from the island so it does not empty the house of all its warm air..(and dont use the fireplace anymore anyway) Bud

[daves]

I've heard and read multiple stories like this: home owner or contractor puts in powerful gas cooktop/range and great big hood, but forgets about make-up air, and all hell breaks loose. The story would be have been the same for me except that my father-in-law is a mechanical engineer specializing in commercial building hvac systems, and he nudged me to look into this part of the equation.

Our house is fairly new (aka air-tight), and the furnace/hot water heater are in the garage behind a fire door. So our 1400 cfm would have been moving little actual air. Based on the reaction of our contractor, I doubt he would have done anything about it unless I've raised it. But I can't really hold that against him too much; it just seems par for the course where code doesn't require it.

[daves]

So one question in the design that has come up is the water source behind the stove. I think it is called a pot filler. My wife and I are leaning toward not having one, based on the idea that if we can't carry a pot to the stove, what do we expect to do with it once it is full and on the stove

Do you have one and how do you use it? Would you get one again? Or is it a blight on your beautiful backplash?

thanks!

Edited March 28, 2010 by daves (log)

[ray goud]

"Long story short"???

What you need is a heat-exchanging fresh-air input. Log on to Fine Homebuilding's website (you may have to pay) and search for those quite expensive units which admit fresh air while preserving some fraction of the heat or cooling while doing so. Definitely not a DIY deal.

Ray

[daves]

Thanks Ray. I did in fact run across these, and my FIL (the HVAC engineer) also suggested that we might want one.

My HVAC contractor, who will be updating the system for MUA, said that all fresh air exchange systems around here feed directly into the furnace plenum to temper the air before circulating into the house. With the typical outside temperature around here, our furnace or AC should be able to bring the air to room temp in a single pass (although it might be on high heat or chill). As part of this discussion, he has shown me numbers on fuel savings vs. exchanger systems that indicate the break-even point would be many times the useful lifetime of the system.

The climate around here is a lot milder than my FIL is used to. Are these exchangers common in CT?

My plan is for MUA to follow the same path. The HVAC contractor thought that would certainly work. Are we thinking about this wrong? Is MUA fundamentally different than fresh air exchange?

[ray goud]

The fresh-air exchangers are not common at all around here, unless one has a very expensive, newer house. We have quite a small, sixty year old house and I don't ever imagine having the money to buy one of those units. If you're going to have an exhaust that powerful and don't open a window or have an exchanger close by, then the air will get in some other way, like through the furnace, or the fireplace flue, or somewhere else you'd rather not like. I think the whole situation is an unforeseen consequence of putting commercial-size equipment in homes. Rather the same thing happened thirty or so years ago when people began putting monster gas stoves meant for restaurants in their home kitchens and had to have fire-rated walls installed behind the stoves. Eventually the stove makers got the message and now make them safe to put in homes, with the performance of the commercial units of the past. I guess if enough people want big exhaust blowers a market will grow for companion equipment to provide make-up-air (maybe they can combine both?).

Ray

[Dave the Cook]

. . . .

The HVAC guys have done a once over and recommend a second 8" intake (we already have a 8" for fresh air replacement). The contractor's plan is to put a second intake in parallel into the furnace plenum, and then cycle the furnace blower to come on (just like during a fresh air cycle). Our furnace can apparently move 2400 cfm, so it should be able to keep up. This will introduce tempered filtered air throughout the house when the hood is on. I am thinking of having some additional vents installed into the kitchen on the island bottom facing the range, but not sure about that yet.

. . . .

This seems to be the preferred solution (something like this?), though the more of that air you can pump into your kitchen, the better. Employing a whole-house solution means you're going to have a stiff breeze throughout when your fan is on high. (I remain unconvinced that you need such a powerful exhaust fan, though.)

. . . .

Rather the same thing happened thirty or so years ago when people began putting monster gas stoves meant for restaurants in their home kitchens and had to have fire-rated walls installed behind the stoves. Eventually the stove makers got the message and now make them safe to put in homes, with the performance of the commercial units of the past. I guess if enough people want big exhaust blowers a market will grow for companion equipment to provide make-up-air (maybe they can combine both?).

Ray

This is a little misleading. What manufacturers did was scale down their commercial units for home use. A typical medium-duty Wolf range for a restaurant kitchen has 30K BTU burners; burners on domestic models are 15K to 18K BTU.

So one question in the design that has come up is the water source behind the stove. I think it is called a pot filler. My wife and I are leaning toward not having one, based on the idea that if we can't carry a pot to the stove, what do we expect to do with it once it is full and on the stove

Do you have one and how do you use it? Would you get one again? Or is it a blight on your beautiful backplash?

thanks!

I don't have one, but I'd be leery of installing a water source where there's no drain.

[daves]

The air line from outside to the air return (and into the furnace plenum) is the basic idea. I have a larger one than displayed in the video, and it appears that it'll grow by 2x for the right amount of MUA. I also have a motorized vent cover that only opens when the timer goes off for fresh air. This control will also have to be triggered when the hood is on.

We've nixed the pot filler.

My wife has been off looking at granite, so there hasn't been much to write. Tomorrow we're heading to an appliance store to see some details on the range, fridge, and some samples of Abbaka hoods.

But I have been looking into water filtration. I have an espresso machine that I can plumb directly into a cold water line, but the water should be filtered. In addition, the fridge we've been looking at has an ice maker and water dispenser. Instead of buying the expensive filters for the fridge, I was going to install the available blank/bypass in the fridge, and use the espresso filter for both.

My water is not particularly hard (about 5 grains -- which is just about perfect for espresso), so I don't want to soften. Usually the water quality is excellent, although sometimes in the summer our water district may get some water from Seattle and there might be a chlorine taste.

I've been thinking of using the Bunn EasyClear EQHP-25. The cartridges cost about $60 and will go for 6-12 months between changes. There is activated carbon for off-flavors, as well as particle filtration.

Anyone have any experience with these or similar ones from CUNO or everpure or...

Has anyone run a water outlet to an appliance like a counter-top espresso machine? How did you run the line? I'm thinking of something like a smurf tube, extending from the cabinet containing the filter to low on the backsplash behind the machine. I'll have a drilled tile in front of the smurf tube for running the water line through. A simple new tile will hide the whole thing should that become necessary.

Edited March 31, 2010 by daves (log)

[daves]

So I was dragged to the stone warehouses to look at granite slabs a few days ago. I saw little I liked, except for the soapstone. I understand that it is impervious to stains, but that it will develop a patina of scratches and dents that can be removed with oil and sandpaper.

Does anyone have any experience with soapstone as a countertop material?

[Dave the Cook]

We discussed soapstone in this topic. It seems that if you like the way it looks (and will look over time), it's a great material.

Did they give you a quote for installation?

[daves]

Thanks for the link. We've been reading all we can about soapstone, both on and off eGullet. We're going back to the stone vendors to look at slabs next week to see if we can find something that we like. For the island, we'd like something with some movement, and I'd like to understand the effect on hardness if there is significant movement (talc?) in the slab. Hopefully I'll be able to get some samples from them to put through some tests...

[ray goud]

Our soapstone counters (including the portable island) are going on five years old, at least. I love them, wife does not. She expected something that would never show wear, I don't care. Seal with mineral oil, and touch up scratches with same oil. They are absolutely stable regarding cracking or "movement". I guess a few million years of their formation within the earth guaranteed that. They used to be used for lab counters before man-made and cheaper alternatives. Their complete immunity to stains and heat are what sold me. I think that in 50 or so more years I might resurface them if I am physically able to. I LOVE how I can set down a searingly hot pan on it, or place on it another pan I'd like to quickly reach room temp. Not for everybody, but they are for me.

Ray

[daves]

Thanks for the soapstone feedback, Ray. We're leaning toward them for the same reason: immunity to stains and heat. Plus, we are putting together a 'working kitchen', and the granite my wife was looking at would have knocked up the formality level too much. Luckily she also likes the look and feel of soapstone.

We went to a few stone houses in the Seattle area last week to look more closely at their soapstone slabs. Unfortunately, while these are warehouse-sized buildings with hundreds of different slabs, the soapstone slabs can usually be counted on one hand. The biggest surprise was the range of hardness. One of the more 'movement'-filled slabs we looked at was easily scratched and chipped by digging in with my fingernail. The one on the next stand, which had a great 3d-like layering of black and green, got some surface marks from my fingernail but nothing I would say was a scratch.

We got a sample of the softer one and we've been torturing it at home: scratching it with a nail, running pans over it, attemping to stain with red wine, etc. We love the fact that small marks do disappear with mineral oil, and bigger scratches can be removed with med sandpaper and then oil.

At this point, we need to see more types and hardnesses. Are there any geologists in the house that can shed some light on the relationship between the two? I'm guessing that white veining is softer talc in the mix and that leads to scratching/chipping. Is that correct or completely wrong ?

We really like the material, and we'll be happy if we can find the right balance of hardness and interesting movement.

[Qqueen]

Hi, this is a very general question regarding my upcoming kitchen remodel project. I am planning on remodeling my kitchen this time round and I want to use items that are cheap. Can anyone give me some ideas??

[weinoo]

IKEA.

Edited January 8, 2014 by weinoo (log)

[Darienne]

Second-hand building stores like Habitat for Humanity/ Restore. DH has found amazing bargains while renovating our house. Restaurant and institutional cast-offs abound. We found 10 dining room chairs for about $5.00 each...living room occasional chairs...kitchen cabinetry...the list is endless.

We bought our kitchen cabinets from a factory outlet years ago. Too long to remember.

But then we live in a century farmhouse and are not very au courant in our tastes.

[weinoo]

Re:IKEA.

My wife and I did a gut kitchen remodel of an apartment we have in DC. The kitchen is tiny (like under 100 square feet) and weirdly shaped.

IIRC, the IKEA website lets you practically design your own kitchen, which I did. They were running a sale, so by buying some of our appliances at the same time, we got 20% off the whole package. We bought the sink, dishwasher, range and microwave from IKEA, and I got the fridge (which I needed to be a certain size to fit into the space) via Home Depot. The IKEA cabinet bases are very nice quality for the dough, and of course it's up to you what you spend on the doors and drawers and hardware for those cabinets.

Before:

After:

Edited January 8, 2014 by weinoo (log)

[Unpopular Poet]

I also put Ikea cabinets into my kitchen because basically, the remodel was supposed to be a somewhat temporary (6-7 year) solution. I am perfectly happy with them -- The stock hardware from IKEA is as nice as some of the higher end cabinets I have seen (soft close drawers, etc) at a fraction of the price. I think in the end, the cabinets cost roughly 1/8 of what the custom cabinets would have cost. I think they were 1/4 of the price of the Home Depot box cabinets. The nice thing is that if you damage a door or drawer, for less than $50 you can go to IKEA and buy a new one.

[weinoo]

Yep - the stock hardware on those is some pretty high quality stuff. When I was referring to spending more on hardware, that was about handles and things.

[HungryC]

Remod costs vary widely across the country. I had custom cabs built for less than medium-high manufactured ones, and didn't spend much more than Ikea would have cost. Hardware is the killer--but you can go as high or as low end as you'd like.

The previously mentioned suggestion--architectural salvage/surplus stores--is a great one. Habitat often operates such stores, and I've seen everything from sinks to ceramic tiles to paint to cabinet pulls in my area. Also check out restaurant supply houses for fixtures and sinks. The "commercial" sprayer faucet costs way way way less than a Hansgrohe version. Ditto for stand-alone sinks, stainless apron sinks, and pot-filler faucets.

[gfweb]

We are thinking of re-doing our kitchen. A big part of it is a new range. We have an old beast of a 60" Vulcan that will finally go. Looking for a 36" 5 or 6 burner range with a convection oven using LP gas. The grating should cover the whole range.

I lean toward non-sealed burners, but that's all I've ever had.

Looking at what's available it seems like there's the "pro" looking stuff (Wolf, Thermador, Viking) which are all pricey and within about $700 of each other at the place where I priced them; and the stuff that seems flimsy and badly made (eg GE profile) but about half the price. Costco has cheaper "pro" stuff, but the reviews hint at bad construction.

Is there no middle ground?

[BeeZee]

Having just remodeled the kitchen and therefore spending some time researching and going to retail showrooms...the basic answer is no. I looked at the higher end products in envy/lust, but my financial reality was mainstream products, so I bought based on Consumer Reports ratings and found the model (Frigidaire Gallery series) that met my basic needs without looking too "cheap" while being within budget and having good reliability ratings.

[MelissaH]

My kitchen cabinets are from IKEA, and we've been very happy with them. They're also fairly easy to modify to fit your exact needs, if need be.