The Sourdough Starter Topic

[paulraphael]

8 hours ago, Soupcon said:

I am not sure the same bacteria might not also be in the refrigerated starter as well as they both came from the same base. I know the hazard of whole wheat sourdough is that they have a tendency to become tooo sour but I don't think it is that. OTOH it may just be that. I am not sure what an all whole wheat starter should smell like. Any ideas. I know that a starter made with unbleached bread flour should not smell like nail polish remover but I am not sure what a whole wheat starter should smell like. Perhaps I have bitten off more than I can chew and should back up and start life again in the sourdough world at least with an unbleached white bread flour base. Just navel gazing at the minute. 

 

Sounds like Clostridium acetobutylicum. It eats starch and makes acetone. I did a quick search and found this discussion ... sounds like you're not alone, and it's not that big a deal ... that bacterium can't tolerate an acidic environment. No personal experience here, though.

 

[Soupcon]

11 hours ago, paulraphael said:

 

Sounds like Clostridium acetobutylicum. It eats starch and makes acetone. I did a quick search and found this discussion ... sounds like you're not alone, and it's not that big a deal ... that bacterium can't tolerate an acidic environment. No personal experience here, though.

 

 

 

Thank you. Great reference. I am well aware of Clostridium as I was an RN in a former life but not it's tendency to produce acetone in sourdough starters if given the opportunity and wrt the acid forming bacteria had also last summer been trying to make vinegar from a cider vinegar containing a mother; so acid forming bacteria might just be floating around in my kitchen still. Granted the smell of acetone was not that strong but nonetheless I knew it was there and should not have been. So perhaps the refrigerated starter is not the write off I was afraid it might be and perhaps should be taken out of its cold sleep and revived to see what I can do with it. Thanks again.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Soupcon
correction (log)

[Soupcon]

Well, I started a new starter with whole wheat on Sat. It sat dormant for 2 days before it began to grow. I fed it with whole wheat to see what would happen. Nothing happened again until the 2nd day when it doubled in bulk. I refreshed it again this afternoon with whole wheat and it had doubled in bulk in 8 hours which is now as I write. As I have done more reading on the site suggested by @paulraphael and now know that whole wheat starters at the beginning are not such a good idea  until they are stable so I am going to see if I can switch it over to an AP unbleached flour sourdough starter by mixing in 30% AP in tonight's feed and see what has happened with it when I wake up tomorrow. BTW I have not found any smell of acetone in this starter so I hope the first go at this process was a one off and  is also why I am switching over to unbleached AP to decrease the tendency for the development of lots of acid. It does at the moment smell sour however. 

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Soupcon
grammar (log)

[paulraphael]

On 3/14/2017 at 11:01 AM, Soupcon said:

Thank you. Great reference. I am well aware of Clostridium as I was an RN in a former life but not it's tendency to produce acetone in sourdough starters if given the opportunity ...

 

There are bajillions of different clostridium bacteria, including the pathogens that would have concerned you as an RN. This acetone-making one sounds like it's not too common. But like most of the bacteria in starters, good and bad, it may have just been resident in the wheat, waiting for the right conditions.

[cakewalk]

9 hours ago, Soupcon said:

Well, I started a new starter with whole wheat on Sat. It sat dormant for 2 days before it began to grow. I fed it with whole wheat to see what would happen. Nothing happened again until the 2nd day when it doubled in bulk. I refreshed it again this afternoon with whole wheat and it had doubled in bulk in 8 hours which is now as I write. As I have done more reading on the site suggested by @paulraphael and now know that whole wheat starters at the beginning are not such a good idea  until they are stable so I am going to see if I can switch it over to an AP unbleached flour sourdough starter by mixing in 30% AP in tonight's feed and see what has happened with it when I wake up tomorrow. BTW I have not found any smell of acetone in this starter so I hope the first go at this process was a one off and  is also why I am switching over to unbleached AP to decrease the tendency for the development of lots of acid. It does at the moment smell sour however. 

 

 

This is where I would split the starter in half. The WW starter seems to be doing well. Don't mess with success! I would keep half as-is and keep feeding it as you were doing. Experiment with the other half. 

[Soupcon]

3 hours ago, cakewalk said:

This is where I would split the starter in half. The WW starter seems to be doing well. Don't mess with success! I would keep half as-is and keep feeding it as you were doing. Experiment with the other half. 

 

Ahhh. Too late. I refreshed it last night with 1 part AP:2 parts ww: 3 parts H2O;3 parts starter and this morning it had doubled in bulk again so I refreshed with 2 ap:1 ww:3 H2O:3 starter and will see what happens... No smell of acetone again but just sour starter. Yipppppeeeee. So we will see.

[Soupcon]

Thankyou @DianaM for the post on you favourite sourdough author, Sarah Owens. I am having such a wonderful time reading her book and getting lots of ideas. 

My sourdough ww starter that I switched over to ap flour is still fermenting away but not quite at the same rate as before. So I am nursing it along. I did start at the same time one other ww starter which took a long time to ferment and now is going gangbusters. I have kept this one as ww. I do not smell acetone in either starter thankfully (hoping I don't jinx myself). When either starter passes the floatation test I will bake. I have been trying (I know you live in Ontario somewhere as do I) to locate organic unbleached bread flour and am having not much luck. Is sifted ww flour a reasonable substitute for unbleached bread flour do you think? 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Soupcon
wording (log)

[ElsieD]

Inspired by all this chatter about sourdough, I decided to try making a starter.  Thursday night I mixed together 50 grams each of flour and water.  Tonight there was definitely some action as it had risen and there were bubbles.  I fed it another 50 grams each of water and flour and it's looking good.  The last several times I tried to make a starter it didn't work so I am hoping this one will.  I was successful once and loved the bread and the pancakes - so we'll see what happens.

[DianaM]

16 hours ago, Soupcon said:

I have been trying (I know you live in Ontario somewhere as do I) to locate organic unbleached bread flour and am having not much luck. Is sifted ww flour a reasonable substitute for unbleached bread flour do you think? 

 

 

My favourite flours come from 1847 Stone Milling. They freshly mill (on a stone mill from 1847) organic grains that they grow themselves, the flour is not bleached nor fortified. The flour is excellent, you just have to account for the fact that it's fresh and behaves a bit differently than even the ww you buy in the store. I think you'd love their Daily Bread flour - it is not labelled as whole wheat, but it is as dark as any ww (milled from red wheat) I've seen. I always buy that, their ww, and also the Daily Grind (their "AP" flour) - and this too is pretty dark. I used their kamut flour and it was amazing, but they're out. 

 

Arva Flour Mills in London, ON is also making fresh flours (including ww), but theirs are not organic. 

I also tried La Milanaise flours from Bakers & Us (wholesalers) but they came in 20lb bags and honestly, I was not impressed with the flour. 

 

Although I absolutely love the flavour or whole grains, I found that for myself and my family, I've had the best results when I added a percentage of AP flour (our Canadian AP is excellent, imo) to help with "lift" and to tame the "wholegrain-iness" a bit, but you of course will decide where you want to go with your recipes. I will be happy to answer any questions you have. 

 

I hope this is not too OT for this thread, and if it is - oops! 

 

 

 

 

[ElsieD]

@Soupcon If you are near Ottawa you could try Castor River Farm in Metcalfe or Watson's Mill in Manotick.

[ElsieD]

My starter was going like gangbusters yesterday and I fed it for the first time.  It is now not lively at all but since there are lots of tiny bubbles I'll just feed it again this afternoon and see what happens.

[Soupcon]

Update and need help I think.

Here is a picture of my ww sourdough starter which is the one I last talked about and has been in production for not quite 2 weeks (I think). Anyway it looks great as the photo shows but sinks like a stone in the float test. Me no understand. I have had to switch ww flours in the last 2 days and will return to the original brand when it is restocked (never dreamed they would run out of the original... who knew). The starter is now very very concentrated and almost dough like but still in a 1:1:1 ratio of starter/flour/water. So what is the problem... hydration? Too much bran?

[chileheadmike]

I started some last Sunday. Yesterday, my wife decided to do some cleaning and "flushed that nasty stuff down the sink" while I was at work.

 

Sigh. Oh well. 

[Smithy]

8 hours ago, Soupcon said:

Update and need help I think.

Here is a picture of my ww sourdough starter which is the one I last talked about and has been in production for not quite 2 weeks (I think). Anyway it looks great as the photo shows but sinks like a stone in the float test. Me no understand. I have had to switch ww flours in the last 2 days and will return to the original brand when it is restocked (never dreamed they would run out of the original... who knew). The starter is now very very concentrated and almost dough like but still in a 1:1:1 ratio of starter/flour/water. So what is the problem... hydration? Too much bran?

 

It looks too thick and stiff to me.  I have a very dim recollection of a dough I had that looked like this - or maybe it was a sourdough starter - that was quite unworkable for me.  Keep in mind that so far I'm a one-trick pony with sourdough starter and not much of a troubleshooter.  If nobody who actually knows what they're doing speaks up soon, I'd suggest splitting this starter and trying to thin out half with water.  Maybe a 1:2:1 starter:water:flour ratio? 

 

Then again, it might be fine.  Way up in this topic, bethesdabakers said that once the starter is bubbling away one should try baking with it.  Have you tried working with it?

[Soupcon]

I finally took a look at what "Robin Hood" might have doctored the flour with and found L-Cysteine HCL. Some kind of amino acid. This is the only additive that might have had this effect as it is supposed to promote gluten formation. Well I had gluten alright. The starter was almost solid. It got pitched. I have started again after finding the ww flour that I had started with originally. As for the AP sourdough starter... it had seem to go into hold for a while and I could not seem to get it to ferment any faster than over a 24 hour period and then it barely doubled. So I changed the ratios from 1:1:1 to 1:2:2 and waited and yes I refreshed daily. Finally this morning it had not only doubled in bulk it had trippled and had just started to receed so I refreshed  early this morning and the action has already started. Not holding my breath yet. This starter has passed the float test for the past week but because it took sooooo long to ferment I have not yet made bread with it.

 

[Anna N]

15 minutes ago, Soupcon said:

I finally took a look at what "Robin Hood" might have doctored the flour with and found L-Cysteine HCL. Some kind of amino acid. This is the only additive that might have had this effect as it is supposed to promote gluten formation. Well I had gluten alright. The starter was almost solid. It got pitched. I have started again after finding the ww flour that I had started with originally. As for the AP sourdough starter... it had seem to go into hold for a while and I could not seem to get it to ferment any faster than over a 24 hour period and then it barely doubled. So I changed the ratios from 1:1:1 to 1:2:2 and waited and yes I refreshed daily. Finally this morning it had not only doubled in bulk it had trippled and had just started to receed so I refreshed  early this morning and the action has already started. Not holding my breath yet. This starter has passed the float test for the past week but because it took sooooo long to ferment I have not yet made bread with it.

 

This.   Just wanted to make you aware of the recall of Robin Hood all purpose flour.  

[Soupcon]

1 minute ago, Anna N said:

This.   Just wanted to make you aware of the recall of Robin Hood all purpose flour.  

Thanks Anna. I was not aware of this but I had already pitched the flour anyway. The ww flour I had been using at the beginning to make the starter is from Five Roses. When I have figured out how to make starters and bake with them I am going to switch over to ww Red Fife organic flour. But that may not beeeee for quite a while yet.

[Kerry Beal]

58 minutes ago, Anna N said:

This.   Just wanted to make you aware of the recall of Robin Hood all purpose flour.  

Of course when I found cheap flour a couple of weeks ago - Robin Hood is the one I settled on! Damn.

[Isabelle Prescott]

What is the "sink" test:  I've been making starters and baking sourdough bread for years.  Please enlighten me. Thanks.

[rustwood]

22 minutes ago, Isabelle Prescott said:

What is the "sink" test

 

Perhaps this is a reference to the float test?  There is a discussion of it here.  Apparently it is not reliable in at least some situations.

[Isabelle Prescott]

Thanks.  I'm not that scientific about my bread baking.  I keep my starter in the refrigerator and feed it about once a week.  Originally made it from Nancy Silverton's recipe using flour, water and grapes.  It took about 2-3 weeks for it to get to the place where I could bake with it.  I've had it for maybe 8 years and it just keeps on going as long as it is fed.  I start my bread the night before I'm going to bake it.  Its a simple recipe using starter, flour, water and salt.  

 

I suggest Soupcon just dive in and try baking with the starter.  It takes longer, usually, than when using yeast for the bread to rise but totally worth it.

[Soupcon]

I forgot to post about my conversation with the baker/teacher at the bakery where I purchase my loved ww sourdough loaf. I asked the baker behind the counter about the levain they use for their breads in particular the ww bread I love so much and he went into the bakery and brought back with him the baker/instructor. The lavain they use in the bakery is from a 200 year old levain from France. They have divided it and mixed into it different flours depending on the type of bread they wish to bake... each kind of bread has a separate levain maintained just for it. The ww loaf levain is about 30% AP flour as they had difficulty with a totally ww levain. He did not elaborate as to what difficulty they had. I have been invited back to the bakery to speak more with the teacher and to see their main production area (quite small) and hopefully the levain they use. 

 

[chromedome]

7 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

Of course when I found cheap flour a couple of weeks ago - Robin Hood is the one I settled on! Damn.

I believe the batches involved in the recall were sold only in the Western provinces. 

[rustwood]

17 hours ago, Soupcon said:

he went into the bakery and brought back with him the baker/instructor. The lavain they use in the bakery is from a 200 year old levain from France

 

I thought your story might end with them giving you some starter.  I imagine they consider it a trade secret, but you never know - perhaps on your next visit.

 

I've read that a starter takes on the characteristics of the local biome so although their levain may have originated 200 years ago in France, by now it may be a completely different animal - so to speak.   Perhaps in time we will learn more about the truth about such claims - an evolutionary biologist has been collecting starters and a stories surrounding them from all over the world.  According to their most recent post, Project Sourdough already has already received 300 starters.

 

[cakewalk]

5 minutes ago, rustwood said:

 

I thought your story might end with them giving you some starter.  I imagine they consider it a trade secret, but you never know - perhaps on your next visit.

 

I've read that a starter takes on the characteristics of the local biome so although their levain may have originated 200 years ago in France, by now it may be a completely different animal - so to speak.   Perhaps in time we will learn more about the truth about such claims - an evolutionary biologist has been collecting starters and a stories surrounding them from all over the world.  According to their most recent post, Project Sourdough already has already received 300 starters.

 

And from this he makes a living?

 

What can I say, I'm a bit bewildered by it all. I think an older starter is a nice pat on the back for the baker, because he/she was able to maintain the starter for a long period, which can sometimes take some doing. It's a nice challenge. But I also don't think, as you mentioned above, that an older starter retains many, if any, of the characteristics it originated with. There's constant replacement of the old starter with "new stuff." I'm afraid that 200 year old French starter is currently as American as apple pie.