French Food, Fat and Big Meals: Cultural

[chefzadi]

Strangely, I don't think I've ever been served a green vegetable in Alsace -

That's cause they're German, dude.

(Running away before Farid, Ptipois and a few assorted Germans give me a well-deserved ass-kicking... )

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Sauerkraut doesn't qualify as a green vegetable?

[Behemoth]

Strangely, I don't think I've ever been served a green vegetable in Alsace -

That's cause they're German, dude.

(Running away before Farid, Ptipois and a few assorted Germans give me a well-deserved ass-kicking... )

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Sauerkraut doesn't qualify as a green vegetable?

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I would say it's more beige. Much like myself, in some ways.

[TarteTatin]

has. I'd be curious to know, does anybody reading this thread from the top think that my first post was humorous?

I thought it was very, very, funny! Perhaps we have the same sense of humor?

[markk]

Oh, for crying out loud (he says with a big grin on his face) - thank you Chefzadi and others...

Of course sauerkraut's a vegetable.

What I meant was, I spend a lot of time in Alsace, eating in a lot of stupendous places, where I am now quite good friends with a lot of chefs, and I offer below links to the meals they have served me. But except for an occasional pea on the plate for decoration, these meals do not have a lot of green vegetables, which for me is a shame, since for health reasons I try to eat tons of dark leafy greens on a daily basis. I'm not saying anything bad about these places, because Lord knows I love them more than words can express, but I think it's clear from the photos that green vegetables are not a visible part of the meals...

Spectacularly good, but green-vegetable-less meals in Alsace

[Bux]

When a woman sated with rich French food asks for a simple plate of steamed vegatables and they bring them drenched in killer butter and cream, that's where people get the idea that French food is deadly-rich.   And in fact, historically, France is famous for its butter-laden pastries, it's cream sauces, and its rich, fatty foods.  Have you never heard of Escoffier?  Have  you never read Waverly Root?  Have you never dined in a Michelin 3-starred restaurant?

Sure, now in the new milenium, French people are undoubtedly just as worried about obesity and heart disease as their American counterparts.  But the only difference in their traditional diets is that the American diet, while eschewing such foods as cream and butter, is in fact higher in the hidden fats that are worse artery-clogging killers as saturated fats and trans-fats, fooling people by the printed claims "Low in Cholesterol", while the traditional French fare, famous for its high in butter and cream delights, may now be something that French people are shying away from for health reasons.  But traditionally, everybody has always associated French food with a rich diet laden with Normandy butter and cream, and with the good reason that these ingredients are natrual, and soul-nourishingly delicious.

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As I recall the woman asked for vegetables, not steamed vegatables and she was probably eating in the wrong kind of restaurant more than the wrong country. It was a hotel restaurant at any rate. In Spain, a plate of simple vegetables would likely be garnished with ham. Hell, in Spain I saw tripe listed in a column under the heading of vegetables. Norman butter and cream tend to be seen in the north, down through Paris and Burgundy. Traditionally, they weren't all that much featured in Provence or the Basque regions, for instance. The thing about Michelin three star restaurants is that they are a French concept, but the average Frenchman is probably never going to have a single three star meal in his life. They cater to a small segment of French society and the whole three star syndrome is dependent on foreign tourism.

[Ptipois]

When a woman sated with rich French food asks for a simple plate of steamed vegatables and they bring them drenched in killer butter and cream, that's where people get the idea that French food is deadly-rich.

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Good lord, where in France did anyone get served that kind of thing when asking for "steamed vegetables" ?

I'm 46 and French and this never happened to me. If it did I'd just send it back to the kitchen because it was not what I asked, as any other French person would.

Is it so difficult to understand that French food, traditional or modern, is by no means fattier than the food of any other tradition — be it German, British, even Mediterranean, and of course US? Just identify the starches, fats and oils that go into each one of them and then compare. You'd be very surprised. However, if your idea of French cooking is cream sauces, butter pastries and duck fat all over the place, it is a very, very fragmentary idea of French cooking but I know how people get it. They get it from coming to France and going to restaurants, and only to "some" restaurants, and then going away.

If the French cuisine bourgeoise inherited from the 19th century was so laden with butter and cream for a few generations, it was a historical period. It seemed important to put a stress on richness, to prove that days of hunger and poverty in the lower classes were over. Then a style of cuisine that had been only for the rich went down the social ladder to convey the message that (nearly) everybody could eat like them. This was relatively short-lived but is not particularly French, though the quality of our produce did help.

Traditional sauces were not heavily creamed but reduced for days. Slow cooking with wine, an art that is partly lost, was indeed a way of lightening the food and making it more digestible. Vegetables were used quite a lot until the mid-19th century, only they were called "herbs" and this leads readers to confusion. Etc., etc. Farid is right, this is not going anywhere, but I still think it worthwhile to set a few things straight.

[bleudauvergne]

Going back to the original post, I've found that the pharmacists here in France take their vocation very seriously. If fatty foods were to avoided with a med, even if there was a sticker on the bottle, the pharmacist would still take the time to also explain in detail the foods to avoid with it, at least mine does that with me. She always makes sure I fully understand what's to be avoided before she hands over my prescription.

I agree with Ptitpois, there are restaurants that serve fatty menus but for the most part you'll see a lot of people who eat plenty of fresh vegetables on a regular basis, this idea of lots of fat all the time is a misconception.

In fact I would argue that for home meals, the meat portions are bigger in the U.S. than in France. Steaks for example are a prime example. The American cuts are generally much thicker. All beef, all good, but the ideas on portion size are different.

The all meat / fatty French meal in the photos upthread is certainly playing on a stereotype. As for fois gras, this is something that 1) you certainly can order in a restaurant - it is something people generally don't prepare on a regular basis at home, or 2) families may serve at home as part of a holiday meal. There's a big difference between restaurant food and the average everyday French diet, but I think that's universal. In both cultures, everyone knows that restaurant meals can be much heavier than what you might eat on a normal basis at home.

Being someone who was born in the States and adopted France as my home, I can say that I am attracted to the aged cheeses and milk products a bit more than my born and raised French friends. This is because the quality strikes me as exceptional. my paradigm is a bit different. I most likely eat a larger variety of aged cheeses on a daily basis than my French friends do.

[prasantrin]

But I thought the initial post was humorous, and I'm hoping there will be at least one or two gulleteers who agree?

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I got the joke, but I don't know that I would qualify it as funny. That being said, I think the direction this thread turned is much funnier...however predictable

[markk]

Thank you, John. I was writing this apparently as you were posting. Here's the thing...

If the French cuisine bourgeoise inherited from the 19th century was so laden with butter and cream for a few generations, it was a historical period. It seemed important to put a stress on richness, to prove that days of hunger and poverty in the lower classes were over. Then a style of cuisine that had been only for the rich went down the social ladder to convey the message that (nearly) everybody could eat like them. This was relatively short-lived but is not particularly French, though the quality of our produce did help.

Of course that is the historical stereotype I was playing on when I made my "joke" - and if all the people who PM'd me that they thought it was indeed funny were to post that, I'd fare a lot better in the thread. But I meant nothing but fun, and one more time didn't mean to offend the cuisine of a country I love, and to say it one more time, I don't go on vacation to diet.

Now here's a quote from the related, split thread...

Anyway, one morning, the owner of the charcuterie pulled out from behind the counter a book my husband had forgotten there a few days earlier. She had run after him in the street to return it, she explained, but he had already disappeared from sight. (And people say the French -- especially Parisians -- are unfriendly to Americans!)

Speaking for myself, I travel to France as often as I can for two reasons - one is the fabulous food, and the other is the incredible warmth and hospitality of the effervescent people. I've had hundreds of experiences over the years where, for example, I've asked for directions and a French person said "it's complicated so if you have a second and a pen I'll draw you a map", or where French people, realizing that French is not my native tongue when I ask for something, reply "Oh, would it be better for you if I answered in English" [i mean, when foreign tourists come up to Americans here for help or directions, how many offer to help them in their native tongue, or can.

So if anybody made a crack or a joke about the French people, I would be up in arms. But I made a joke about the food, you know. I mean no offense.

Sometimes it's a good thing not to take too many things in life too seriously.

A lot of the population of the world, and the US as well, can barely afford the food that’s necessary to achieve the basic nutrition that sustains life. So for those people who can afford that, and more, and for whom dining is an affordable extravagance, a luxury, an excess, a ‘game’, it is offensive (in my mind anyway) to treat it so incredibly seriously as not to realize a joke. As I say, it's okay to make fun of the historical/stereotypical idea of a particular cuisine, though very much not okay to do the same with a 'people'.

Also, I happen to know quite a number of French people who dine regularly in the 2 and 3 star restaurants in France, and if the can afford to, why not? Those restaurants are rife with tourists (who undoubtedly know as little about cusine as they do about architecture when they stare at churches) for sure, but as I say, I know lots of French people (not millionaires by any means) who frequent them. And why shouldn't they? Don't Americans who live in New York flock to the great restaurants here? Sure, they find the greatest ethnic holes-in-the-wall as well, and when I'm in France and manage to strike up a conversation with French people dining near me who clearly are into their food, I always ask for recommendations of all types of restaurants as well. Often they'll give a very insightful discussion of which of the starred restaurants are great and which are overrated, and then when I ask for lesser suggestions, I get them as well.

And one of the greatest meals I ever had in France was in the town of Dahlenheim, about a 30 minute drive outside of Strasbourg on dirt roads. There, in a simple restaurant that served "Tarte Flambee" (the ultra-thin bread dough spread out like a pizza, topped with creme fraiche and fromage frais, and topped with chunks of raw bacon and slivers of onion, put in a ferociously hot wood burning oven to crisp until the edges start to char in under a minute), we started with that, then had the most fantastic meal of a grilled rib steak served with the best green salad and pommes frites I ever had.

If there was any way that we could have seen each other across the table through the heaviest clouds of smoke that I've ever been in (I guess the locals are smokers) I'd have returned there a million times, but alas, the next time we tried to go, the cloud of smoke that greeted us when we opened the door sent us driving right back to Strasbourg. We did ask if there was a separate room we could eat in, and they said "no, sorry, but that table in the back corner, that's the no smoking table if you want it."

Edited September 21, 2005 by markk (log)

[Ptipois]

Markk, I think you're not realizing that (I can only speak for myself) I wasn't offended in any way and I thought I made that clear.

It was just that I couldn't get your joke because I couldn't even relate it to any known reality, or to any stereotype based on a real situation. Some stereotypes are based on facts and some other are based on a misshapen notion of reality. I would probably have roared at a joke based on the former, but your joke (based on the latter) could only leave me scratching my head.

So please, let nobody be too quick in diagnosing lack of humor or a case of taking oneself too seriously when it is only a different set of cultural references. Good thing if some people find it hilarious to automatically link "french food" with "fatty food", it is always nice to have fun, but do not be surprised if some people, including French, don't react positively — and that won't be because they are offended, but because they missed the punchline. Because the stereotype is not really based on facts.

[John Talbott]

So as to better define the topic of this thread and not mislead readers and/or searchers, I've renamed it "French Food, Fat and Big Meals: Cultural differences, impressions & stereotypes." No offense meant; just clarity sought.

[Busboy]

Markk, I think you're not realizing that (I can only speak for myself) I wasn't offended in any way and I thought I made that clear.

It was just that I couldn't get your joke because I couldn't even relate it to any known reality, or to any stereotype based on a real situation. Some stereotypes are based on facts and some other are based on a misshapen notion of reality. I would probably have roared at a joke based on the former, but your joke (based on the latter) could only leave me scratching my head.

So please, let nobody be too quick in diagnosing lack of humor or a case of taking oneself too seriously when it is only a different set of cultural references. Good thing if some people find it hilarious to automatically link "french food" with "fatty food", it is always nice to have fun, but do not be surprised if some people, including French, don't react positively — and that won't be because they are offended, but because they missed the punchline. Because the stereotype is not really based on facts.

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In Markk's defense let me say that, for Americans --especially those who grew up before the era of nouvelle cusisine, cuisine minceur and the rise of French-Mediterranean cooking, --the image of French food as rich, fattening and delicious is deeply rooted and not unreflective of what American French Restaurants of the era were probably serving. A little foie gras, a cream soup, a meat with sauce that's been (just start laughing at my Frenglish now) montee'd au buerre a bit of cheese and some dessert. Not an unreasonable menu, distinctly -- if stereotypically -- French to the American eye, and likely to inhibit absorbtion of certain medications.

We know that people never ate like this every night (although Julia Child's biographer claims that eating in France laid her up more than once with a crise de foie, brought on by the richness of the food) and that few people eat like this at all anymore. We also know that Frenchmen don't run around in berets and sailors shirts very often, but the cultural shorthand remains.

And you have to admit: you guys do eat a lot of cheese (Chart here)..

[Chris Amirault]

Mon dieu, Charles!

We also know that Frenchmen don't run around in berets and sailors shirts very often, but the cultural shorthand remains.

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They don't? Sacre bleu! Next I suppose you'll be telling me that not all French women look like Jeanne Moreau....

Meanwhile, in an article whose origins I can't quite figure out and thus whose veracity I can't vouch for, one finds:

In 1978 the average French meal lasted an hour and 22 minutes. Today it takes about 38 minutes. Instead of eating traditional French dishes, drinking wine and water, people in France choose McDonald's, KFC and frozen pizzas for their formal meals. This is probably the reason why in a country which has never had problem with obesity, 11.3 percent of the French are obese and nearly 40 percent overweight.

Is there any research to support this?

[Busboy]

Mon dieu, Charles!

We also know that Frenchmen don't run around in berets and sailors shirts very often, but the cultural shorthand remains.

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They don't? Sacre bleu! Next I suppose you'll be telling me that not all French women look like Jeanne Moreau....

Meanwhile, in an article whose origins I can't quite figure out and thus whose veracity I can't vouch for, one finds:

In 1978 the average French meal lasted an hour and 22 minutes. Today it takes about 38 minutes. Instead of eating traditional French dishes, drinking wine and water, people in France choose McDonald's, KFC and frozen pizzas for their formal meals. This is probably the reason why in a country which has never had problem with obesity, 11.3 percent of the French are obese and nearly 40 percent overweight.

Is there any research to support this?

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See -- it's a fatty diet any way you slice it.

Although personally I doubt that anyone, in France or the U.S., chooses McDo for "formal meals."

[Ptipois]

Is there any research to support this?

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Research I couldn't tell you, but it is true that, particularly in suburbs and low-income neighborhoods, obesity is increasing visibly in France. These are places where the diet has mostly gone into "junk-food" mode and is based on processed foods, pizzas, burgers, sweet drinks, and no real cooking is hardly ever done anymore. The results can be seen even if nobody really does anything about the causes. In that way, yes, one could say that some parts of the French population are now switching to a fatty diet

[Ptipois]

In Markk's defense

Mark was not attacked. Mark was only told that his joke wasn't funny. Which is the eternal risk of a joke and no need to feel so hurt about it.

Not an unreasonable menu, distinctly -- if stereotypically -- French to the American eye,

Yes, that's what I mean: to the American eye. If the stereotype was formed in the '60's I do know how it could happen. And there are many restaurants in France, even now, that are struggling to keep it alive. But it is simply not reality. It wasn't even reality in the 50's and 60's for the average middle-class French family whose daily diet was rather simple and wholesome, undoubtedly buttery but surely no more than the Italian or Greek diet was oliveoily or the British or German diets generally fatty. Rich foods have always been considered somewhat exceptional, a way to express status, and even in regions where duck or goose fat was used, it was always in reasonable quantities.

I am not counting the restaurants that were — and still are — pouring cream and butter freely to make sure the client will think he gets his money's worth (I've seen this attitude expressed at the Bocuse brasseries, where a chef was urging me to double the quantities of butter and cream in the recipes I was given to edit. I told him not that this was unhealthy, but that it was just "not real"). Of course many chefs do that, and they particularly think of their non-French clients when they do so. Which doesn't help giving visitors a more accurate idea of the French diet.

And you have to admit: you guys do eat a lot of cheese (Chart here)..

I hardly ever do, except as a snack sometimes. I know quite many people who never do. Hardly anybody, except in starred restaurants, ever asks for the plateau de fromages anymore. But I've noticed that visiting Americans eat lots of French cheeses, yes — much more than we do. So thanks for keeping our ancestral cheese production alive, guys.

I'm not saying that the French diet is lean, for crying out loud! It is not, for instance, the Japanese diet. But it cannot be honestly studied in his whole extent and described as fatty.

[-sheila mooney]

In Markk's defense

Mark was not attacked. Mark was only told that his joke wasn't funny. Which is the eternal risk of a joke and no need to feel so hurt about it.

Not an unreasonable menu, distinctly -- if stereotypically -- French to the American eye,

Yes, that's what I mean: to the American eye. If the stereotype was formed in the '60's I do know how it could happen. And there are many restaurants in France, even now, that are struggling to keep it alive. But it is simply not reality. It wasn't even reality in the 50's and 60's for the average middle-class French family whose daily diet was rather simple and wholesome, undoubtedly buttery but surely no more than the Italian or Greek diet was oliveoily or the British or German diets generally fatty. Rich foods have always been considered somewhat exceptional, a way to express status, and even in regions where duck or goose fat was used, it was always in reasonable quantities.

I am not counting the restaurants that were — and still are — pouring cream and butter freely to make sure the client will think he gets his money's worth (I've seen this attitude expressed at the Bocuse brasseries, where a chef was urging me to double the quantities of butter and cream in the recipes I was given to edit. I told him not that this was unhealthy, but that it was just "not real"). Of course many chefs do that, and they particularly think of their non-French clients when they do so. Which doesn't help giving visitors a more accurate idea of the French diet.

And you have to admit: you guys do eat a lot of cheese (Chart here)..

I hardly ever do, except as a snack sometimes. I know quite many people who never do. Hardly anybody, except in starred restaurants, ever asks for the plateau de fromages anymore. But I've noticed that visiting Americans eat lots of French cheeses, yes — much more than we do. So thanks for keeping our ancestral cheese production alive, guys.

I'm not saying that the French diet is lean, for crying out loud! It is not, for instance, the Japanese diet. But it cannot be honestly studied in his whole extent and described as fatty.

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25 years in Paris -- never went to or gave a dinner party ( a real dinner party, not just "come over for the fortune du pot" -- et encore!) without salad and some lovely cheeses before dessert. even in the days when we all didn't have much money...

only in the last 6 months of my 2 years in montreal have i managed to expunge the cheese reflex from my menu planning --- cheese here is not good enough for the money: no bleu de gex, no beaufort, no perfect brie...

[Ptipois]

25 years in Paris -- never went to or gave a dinner party ( a real dinner party, not just "come over for the fortune du pot" -- et encore!) without salad and some lovely cheeses before dessert. even in the days when we all didn't have much money...

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Well, good for you. When you give a dinner party in France, It is still considered very nice to serve a plateau de fromages and money's not an issue. Even I, a rare cheese eater, still do. But let me point out that this tradition too is weakening, though it's still alive, and that now many dinner parties and restaurant meals have dropped the cheese. I tend to see foreigners somewhat more attached to our cheeses than many of us are. They're the ones who picnic on camembert and red wine in Paris.

[bleudauvergne]

My husband's family always has a cheese plate going. And it always features at least 6 different cheeses. They may eat more cheese than the average French family. I just got lucky, I guess.

[Ptipois]

My husband's family always has a cheese plate going.  And it always features at least 6 different cheeses.  They may eat more cheese than the average French family.  I just got lucky, I guess. 

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No, you got to marry someone from Lyon

In case that wasn't clear, I never wrote that the plateau de fromages had disappeared. Only that it was not so common as it used to be.

[jennahan]

My husband's family always has a cheese plate going.  And it always features at least 6 different cheeses.  They may eat more cheese than the average French family.  I just got lucky, I guess.  

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No, you got to marry someone from Lyon

In case that wasn't clear, I never wrote that the plateau de fromages had disappeared. Only that it was not so common as it used to be.

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I didn't know this. My husband's family, although not from a big cheese making region, still serve a cheese plate for lunch and dinner every day...however, they also are guilty of a higher butter percentage in their diet and fewer lightly cooked veg (they are from Brittany, for heaven's sake!). When and why did this trend start? It is coincident with the decrease in time spent per meal? If the cheese plate is dissapearing, is the notion of having multiple courses regularly also going to be a thing of the past?

[chefzadi]

When I was in France or I go back to visit I eat cheese everyday. I am from Lyon.

In America I do not eat cheese everyday. The cheeses I care to eat daily are out of my budget. When guests come over I put out at least three cheeses.

Isn't there a book written by an American living in France about French home cooking? Presumeably it's for a non-French audience since, well for one thing it's written in English.

Anyway, if you want an idea of what some French people eat at home check out Blog appetit and any number of french food forums will give you a glimpse into what home cooks are making.

This sort of reminds me of the time a woman asked me to teach her French, but wait not French the language itself, she wanted to have a French accent when she spoke English. She wanted me teach her the accent.

I can't remember the last time I cooked with cream at home. Probably last winter when I made a potato gratin. As for butter, hmmm... yes, I add a pat here and there. I don't snack, I don't eat processed foods, occassional in n out. There are no hidden fats in my diet. Yeah, I'll stick to the French diet and stay thin for the rest of my life.

[TarteTatin]

You guys are tough.

Way too harsh on Markk.

He's funny!

So, Markke, we must have gone to the same place outside of Strasbourg!

Where the Burgatti place is...The absolute BEST tarte flambee I've EVER had. Molsheim?

Served exactly how you described it. I yearn for it. Keep seeking it out here in the States, but, alas, it's just not quite the same lardon...fromage...onignons...

[CarolineLD]

An apparently rather bleak view of French home cooking:

Casseroles, Amour et Crises

[Ptipois]

An apparently rather bleak view of French home cooking:

Casseroles, Amour et Crises

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Interesting article, dealing with complex issues, and at least a bit more profound and sensible than the usual view of French food in the English-speaking press, which too frequently oscillates between kitschy romanticism and incredulous bewilderment.

Bleak, for sure, but as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is the bleakness in this case. In many families, the family meal has remained what it should be. It is interesting how overdramatized the subject is, by the author of the book, and the author of the article follows, of course. There is definitely a problem with home cooking in France now. It has many causes, some of them rightly identified by Kauffmann: the TV, of course; the generalization of junk food, which is really dramatic; the pace of modern life; but also the powerful mediatic image of cooking as being exclusive chef domain, thus confiscating the womanly pride of home cooking and giving complexes to cooking mothers: the cooking mom is less and less glamorous with her one-dish meals (delicious though they may be) and her plate arrangements that do not have the "école hôtelière" look. All in all, the pressure on home cooking has become quite heavy. But I don't think it deserves that kind of lamenting, or at least it doesn't focus on the true causes.

Face it, such a book cannot be neutral. As a commercial endeavour, it functions on adding pain where it is not necessarily present. If this writer and his publisher want to sell lots of books, they should by all means refrain from giving good news, or even measured news. Publishers love it when there's drama. The same study written without the dramatic angle would be directed automatically to the university publishing presses, and that's very fine and objective, but it doesn't sell much. All his books are best sellers? I'm not surprised. These days, bad news sell best.

If Prune or Charlotte or Maïté is so saddened, and rightly so, at not seeing her cooking appreciated the right way, it only means that she accepts the situation. Let her do as many French families do: forbid TV watching during family meals. It also has to do with the apartment's or house's floor plan: is there a TV room? Is the boob tube in the dining room? Take it out and place it elsewhere. If the kitchen is large enough, use part of it as a dining space with the TV in another part of the lodging. If there is resistance, let her go on mommy-strike. Then Maïté or Prune will get her own rightful share of matriarchal respect, which it is up to her to demand, and at last people will take a good look at what's in their plates. Then she runs the risk or hearing her family tell her: "Sorry Maman/Chérie, but your cooking isn't that great and we prefer pizza." And that may be true too, but at least the assertion will be based on knowledge, not ignorance. The risk is worth running, because if she's a good cook she'll get nothing but appraisal, if she didn't forget to provide her children with a proper taste education in their early years. This is an important issue and much of their future depends on it. It doesn't mean they'll not crave pizzas, cokes and BigMacs as teens but they will also know how to appreciate other things. I have never seen the work of a good home cook ignored when it has a chance to get proper attention. So if she really loves cooking and is good at it, she is not running a great risk.

Edited September 25, 2005 by Ptipois (log)