The State of Triangle (NC) Dining and Food

[Random Alias]

And by the way, I've found it very hard to get decent pizza around here.  You can get decent brick oven pies at local trattorias but I've yet to find a good pizzeria where I can get a couples slices for under five dollars.  Everytime people call Domino's or Papa John's, a little piece of me dies inside.

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Try Pizza Italia - it's about 1/4 mile from the Angus Barn on Westgate. It's hidden in a strip mall - pretty difficult to see from the road - it's across the street from a Texaco.

And just a general obervation, there are 3 P.F. Changs in the San Francisco area. I bet they are just as packed with people as they are here in the Triangle - I know the ones in Seattle are. On average, people are people - the love of chain restaurants exists in big cities too.

[robyn]

Has Golden Triangle dining deteriorated in the last 5 - 10 years?

Reason I ask is my husband and I used to make regular trips there (my in-laws lived in Southern Pines - and we always spent a night or two in the Golden Triangle to decompress after visiting them). That's how we wound up dining in places like Crook's Corner .

As for places like New York - and ethnic dining - well we used to "wing it" in ethnic places in cities like New York - and encountered so much lousy food that when we go there now - everything is pre-researched and pre-booked - and - much more often than not - pretty high end.

And another thing. I've never had a friend in New York cook for me. The couple of friends we have in the Golden Triangle are accomplished in regional cuisine. I'd rather eat at their houses than at most restaurants in either city! Robyn

[ChefSwartz]

There are plenty of good eats around the Triangle, dadgumit.  And I would include Angus Barn in that line up.

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dadgumit, huh? sounds awfully roy williams-ish

I dont think im the only one that would put the angus barn in the "rip-off" category. Less than inventive food, and prices that rival even NY's most expensive restaurants. come-on man!

[BryanZ]

And just a general obervation, there are 3 P.F. Changs in the San Francisco area. I bet they are just as packed with people as they are here in the Triangle - I know the ones in Seattle are. On average, people are people - the love of chain restaurants exists in big cities too.

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As was established in the chain restaurant thread, "the success of chains is representative not of their quality but of the decline of Western civilization".

[detlefchef]

And another thing.  I've never had a friend in New York cook for me.  The couple of friends we have in the Golden Triangle are accomplished in regional cuisine.  I'd rather eat at their houses than at most restaurants in either city!  Robyn

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How people eat in their own homes provides a great insight into a food scene. When I lived in Berkeley and Oakland, I always felt that we probably had the best stocked pantries in the country. Other places may have had better restaurants (not that we didn't have our share), but great food was being prepared in kitchens all over the area. John and Jane Doe likely had a collection of 6 different olive oils, each used for specific applications.

My guess is this area is certainly well above average in that department. However, if one uses Whole Foods as an indicator (since they're in most markets and are about the best thing we've got going around here for fresh foods), we're still behind plenty.

As for NYC, somebody has got to be buying all that food at Balducci's, Garden of Eden, Dean and Deluca, and the like. Though it's certainly a place where one is more inclined to eat out.

Your point about the bad food there is also well made. While there's no question that the top of the heap up there is going to have us beat, it could be brought into question whether there is, in fact, a higher percentage of good restaurants. I've certainly had my share of slop up there.

[debbiemoose]

WOW. What a great discussion. I think most of the points I might make have been hit, but I would add one thought. I had the opportunity to eat in Charlotte recently at 5 or 6 of the "hip" restaurants. What I found, in many cases, was food that felt calculated, designed to plug into one trend or another. Good enough flavors, and restaurants that looked like they could be in NY or SF, but not real, honest food. Hope that makes sense to y'all. As the restaurant scene here rises - and it will - I hope the better chefs don't lose their focus on providing food that honors their own visions rather than some market research person's figures.

Another point that I don't think has been made is that Raleigh, at least, is still a family-oriented eating town. That may also account for the explosion of chains.

Also, you can have Dean & Deluca. The one in Charlotte was a sorry sight. A Southern Season would eat its lunch, were it in the Triangle.

And if I can mention a restaurant that hasn't been talked about so far, Duck & Dumpling in Raleigh is run by a great chef who cares so much about his food that he makes his own dumpling wrappers. Nice guy, too.

Love the discussion!

[Zeb A]

I apologize up front for not reading all of the posts, but I think I get the idea of this topic.

Personally, I am very glad that we have restaurants like Magnolia Grill, Vin, and Fins. Though I wish we had more restaurants of this caliber, my non-scientific sense is that this is not a poor showing in comparison to the country as a whole (putting aside non-comparable locales such as NYC and SF).

For example, we recently went to New Orleans, which I always sort of imagined to be a food mecca of sorts. But, if you are looking for "cutting-edge" fine-dining, I think The Triangle compares favorably.

What I do wish, however, is that a restaurant would open that had a more adventuresome spirit. Perhaps such a restaurant would fail becuase the consumers would not support it. But, theoretically, if Hugo's can be successful in Portland, Maine, I see no reason why such a creative restaurant could not be successful in the Triangle. And, I hope that someone soon will take a chance and try something like that.

[BryanZ]

WOW. What a great discussion. I think most of the points I might make have been hit, but I would add one thought. I had the opportunity to eat in Charlotte recently at 5 or 6 of the "hip" restaurants. What I found, in many cases, was food that felt calculated, designed to plug into one trend or another. Good enough flavors, and restaurants that looked like they could be in NY or SF, but not real, honest food. Hope that makes sense to y'all. As the restaurant scene here rises - and it will - I hope the better chefs don't lose their focus on providing food that honors their own visions rather than some market research person's figures.

Another point that I don't think has been made is that Raleigh, at least, is still a family-oriented eating town. That may also account for the explosion of chains.

Also, you can have Dean & Deluca. The one in Charlotte was a sorry sight. A Southern Season would eat its lunch, were it in the Triangle.

And if I can mention a restaurant that hasn't been talked about so far, Duck & Dumpling in Raleigh is run by a great chef who cares so much about his food that he makes his own dumpling wrappers. Nice guy, too.

Love the discussion!

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Excellent points. If there's one thing I hate almost as much as boring food, it's trendy foods. New York is victim to this (if anyone has seen the movie In Good Company w/ Denis Quaid you know what I'm talking about when they're in the restaurant and EVERY dish features haulipuli oil) but, at the same time, many of the "hot" dining trends start in NYC and are then copied by lesser and less creative restaurants. What really irks me, however, is when the restaurants like the ones you mentioned in Charlotte try to be "hip" and "trendy" by simply buying the latest Bobby Flay or Nobu Matsuhisa cookbook and essentially putting those dishes on their menus. Sure they're playing to trends and can charge $30+ per entree but this is not the type of spark that the Triangle needs. For example, I've eaten probably 50 versions of Jean-George's warm chocolate cake because it is/was a trendy item. But, alas, I digress.

If there's one thing that I do enjoy in the Triangle, it is A Southern Season. Sure, it's not the most practical of stores, but it's an establishment that should be venerated in any locale. As Detlechef said, I miss my Dean&Deluca and my Garden of Eden, but to be honest I have more faith in the proliferation of true upscale markets than I do in a comprehensive revitalization of Triangle dining. As this thread has developed, I've realized that what I'm looking for isn't bounded by essential criteria. The Triangle has great dining resources and I'm still trying to find them, I just wish they were either easier to find and in greater numbers.

And I'm going to PF Chang's this weekend. I would feel dirty if I didn't make that confession.

[Varmint]

And I'm going to PF Chang's this weekend.  I would feel dirty if I didn't make that confession.

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You chain restaurant whore, you!

[robyn]

...And I'm going to PF Chang's this weekend.  I would feel dirty if I didn't make that confession.

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You can get in? PF Chang's opened here in Jacksonville last month. There's usually a 2-3 hour wait for dinner - and an hour+ wait for lunch unless you get there at 11 am. You won't find me eating there anytime soon (think the only thing I'll wait that long for is life or death medical care). Robyn

[detlefchef]

And I'm going to PF Chang's this weekend.  I would feel dirty if I didn't make that confession.

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You're about to lose all cred. Years ago I bought some stock in them (despite never having seen one of their stores) and did really well, so I was always curious to check them out. Finally, after moving here, I got the chance, so I went... once. That'll do, thank you. I do admire them, of course, for managing to create such a stir. Take essentially the exact same tired american/chinese cuisine, throw in a full bar, some splashy paint, get some english speaking servers, and drop a few horses out front... More power to them.

However, don't piss and moan about the food scene down here in one breath and give in to that hype in the next.

[Varmint]

Actually, I think it was great that BryanZ let us know about going to PF Chang's, as his honesty actually increases his credibility in my mind. My comment above was completely tongue-in-cheek. Nevertheless, this thread isn't about any individual's credibility, so let's not get off track with that sort of debate.

I think the food scene in the Triangle is quite strong for its size, but I've stated a number of times that Raleigh is the weakest of the 3 major Triangle cities. I can't think of one restaurant or store where I can say, "This place has the best (hot dogs, barbecue, bread, burgers, pizza, etc.)." I can say that about Durham and Chapel Hill (Cary, too!), but not Raleigh. That disappoints me. Although the food at Fins is pretty damn good!

[FabulousFoodBabe]

However, don't piss and moan about the food scene down here in one breath and give in to that hype in the next.

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This is what distinguishes a professional from a "foodie." Chain restaurants are a fact, they feed a lot of people, and knowing who's eating there and why affects the dining scene around them.

I admire BryanZ for knowing what he's pissing and moaning about.

[BryanZ]

Not trying to hijack this thread, but let me qualify myself and say that my "pissing and moaning" isn't absolute by any means, as I do not think of myself as the absolute law when it comes to what restaurants are "good" and "bad". A big group of my friends wanted to go, so as the restaurant-go-to-guy/concierge I was the one who took care of the reservations and all. As for the hype, I don't really buy it. I dont hate PF Chang's, but I certainly don't love it either. I guess I just wanted to make that little statement to show that I'm not a total food snob and can have a good time eating at PF Chang's with a group of my friends, creative food or not.

Something that may be worth discussing, however, is how restaurants like PF Chang's who might hold little clout in larger demographics, suddenly think they're all that in smaller cities. Sometimes I feel like making a reservation there is harder than getting a reservation at Per Se simply because the hostess/recetionist is so unaccomodating. For example, I frequently get put on hold for lengthy periods of time only to get disconnected. In addition, I wanted to add one more person to my party of 8 for tonight but they said they would be unable to accomodate us since they do not take reservations for more than 8 and we would have to drop our current reservation and wait for a table of five and a table of four. Perhaps I'm complaining too much but if a restaurant of such mediocrity was also this unaccomodating it would not be in business for too long where I'm from. In general, I find the swelling egos of many mediocre restaurants to be a rather unsettling trend.

[detlefchef]

Well my my, didn't I stir up the pot. Let the record state, I'm sure Bryan is a great kid. In fact, I admire someone his age for being so into food. In fact, I actually PM'd him (at his request) with a rather comprehensive list of my favortie Mexican places.

All that said, this whole thread was essentially started by him. If I was to do the same and then admit that I was, by my own choice, dining at a place like PF Changs, I'd expect to take some ribbing.

I can also assure you, if they gave me any excuse what-so-ever to go elsewhere, like being surly on the phone, I'd take full advantage. In fact, there isn't a restaurant anywhere that should pull that crap. Our job is to facilitate enjoyment, end of story. But if you're going to cop even an ounce of 'tude, you'd better come through with something better than lettuce wraps and Yellowtail Shiraz.

[ChefSwartz]

mmm... i LOVE lettuce wraps with, oh yeah, peanut sauce I wonder where i can get some of those:hmmm:

We face the facts of trendiness, and accept their role. Truth of the matter is somewhere, sometime the lettuce wrap was invented, then perfected, then bastardized by the American public. Doesn't anyone see a pattern here. (pizza, sushi, hamburgers, etc) It's part of our culture.

For me being a Culinarian is embracing ALL types of food and levels of creativity. For me a hamburger can be just as gratifying as eating the finest of cuisine. But you cannot put your self above these things, or you classify yourself in a heiarchy of loneliness. And that goes against exactly what food does, bring people together.

Edited April 15, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[BryanZ]

Well my my, didn't I stir up the pot.  Let the record state, I'm sure Bryan is a great kid.  In fact, I admire someone his age for being so into food.  In fact, I actually PM'd him (at his request) with a rather comprehensive list of my favortie Mexican places.

All that said, this whole thread was essentially started by him.  If I was to do the same and then admit that I was, by my own choice, dining at a place like PF Changs, I'd expect to take some ribbing.

I can also assure you, if they gave me any excuse what-so-ever to go elsewhere, like being surly on the phone, I'd take full advantage.  In fact, there isn't a restaurant anywhere that should pull that crap.  Our job is to facilitate enjoyment, end of story.  But if you're going to cop even an ounce of 'tude, you'd better come through with something better than lettuce wraps and Yellowtail Shiraz.

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I full on expected to take such ribbing, that's why I posted said confession. But yeah, if it was my choice I'd probably not dine there, but, again, I by no means put myself up on any kind of culinary pedestal and have been known to eat my share of downright crappy food (i.e. everynight I eat institutionalized muck). And I saw a nice bottle of Shafer Cabernet in the PF Changs open cellar, a wine I enjoyed very much.

[detlefchef]

mmm... i LOVE lettuce wraps with, oh yeah, peanut sauce I wonder where i can get some of those:hmmm:

We face the facts of trendiness, and accept their role. Truth of the matter is somewhere, sometime the lettuce wrap was invented, then perfected, then bastardized by the American public. Doesn't anyone see a pattern here. (pizza, sushi, hamburgers, etc) It's part of our culture.

For me being a Culinarian is embracing ALL types of food and levels of creativity. For me  a hamburger can be just as gratifying as eating the finest of cuisine. But you cannot put your self above these things, or you classify yourself in a heiarchy of loneliness. And that goes against exactly what food does, bring people together.

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I suppose I should also let the record state, that I hardly restrict my diet to the amazing and inspired. In fact, I probably go white table cloth less then most other foodies. I absolutely love hamburgers and would probably choose a simple carnitas taco as my dessert island food. I also have nothing against lettuce wraps. It is a conceptually very sound dish, so much so that it is essentially impossible to screw up. As a professional, I admire someone who can cash in to the degree they have on such a concept.

My issue was specifically with an attitude that young Bryan alleged to be overly prideful shown by anyone, especially an outfit who's primary claim to fame is the aforementioned "delicacy".

[Varmint]

I'll say it one more time, let's focus on the state of the area's food scene. I really don't want to go back and delete some post from this great thread.

Let me restart by asking, where are we relatively strong, food wise? Why is it that Raleigh, the area's largest city, lacks the top end food places for the most part? If you could change one thing about the area's food choices, what would it be?

[ChefSwartz]

Let me restart by asking, where are we relatively strong, food wise?  Why is it that Raleigh, the area's largest city, lacks the top end food places for the most part?  If you could change one thing about the area's food choices, what would it be?

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Numbers breed Competition, we just need MORE of what we already have. Southeastern Fusion is a brilliant concept. Cheese Grits souffles, fried softshell crabs, NIMAN ranch pork(sweet tea brine), my favorites(Thanks Ben!!!) ShabuShabu is cool. There are numerous joints i haven't had the time or duckets to eat at. Were getting there.

your temperament is fueled by your impatience.

EVERYTHING moves slower in the south.

Edited April 16, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[BryanZ]

I would tend to agree that I love Southern fusion. I do feel, as ChefSwartz states, that we simply need more of it to breed more competition and build a stronger base of restaurants. Magnolia Grill does a great job with the Southern fusion concept, I will certainly give them that, though I do feel like they could use some more competittion. Does anyone know of any restaurants like MG?

Also, I haven't been to ShabaShabu. Being half-Japanese it kind of scares me but, at the same time, I've heard good things about it. Although it's far from creative, they offer up a pretty novel concept, especially in this part of the country. And shabu shabu is a big step up from the bastardized hibachi steakhouses of Benihana-descent that are so popular these days. Is this ShabaShabu place any good.

[ChefSwartz]

bloomsbury bistro, the cosmopolitan, elaines on franklin, nanas, four square, fearrington. fosters market is cool, no produce, sarah(owner) is good friends with martha stewart (i dont know if this is good or bad,15-501), new market at cameron vill too called figs(produce). there is a new gourmet salad rest. in durham called green tango(semi-fast food). there is a cool new joint in lochmere pavilion(kildaire) called blue notes.(live jazz) there menu looked pretty good(fusion) but i havent eaten there. pretty new place. There is a place looked pretty good next to sushi blues, i cant remember the name. deitel & something? (fusion), also a hip new tapas place called underground, under charlie goodnights. Hey off the path. You GOTTA try the buffalo burgers at dakota grill(raleigh/cary) and Maximillian's on 54(cary,fusion) is good and reasonably priced!

Edited April 16, 2005 by ChefSwartz (log)

[Random Alias]

I've eaten at P.F. Changs several times. The problem isn't when people eat at chain restaurants, it's when they only eat at chain restaurants.

[rjwong]

Hey, y'all. I really appreciate this discussion. As a graduate from UNC-CH (MILS, 1989), I was trying to recall all of my culinary moments in the Carrboro/Chapel Hill area.

Numbers breed Competition, we just need MORE of what we already have. Southeastern Fusion is a brilliant concept. Cheese Grits souffles, fried softshell crabs, NIMAN ranch pork(sweet tea brine), my favorites(Thanks Ben!!!) ShabuShabu is cool. There are numerous joints i haven't had the time or duckets to eat at. Were getting there.

your temperament is fueled by your impatience.

EVERYTHING moves slower in the south.

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I agree with ChefSwartz. As a native Californian who's been to SF & LA, Carolina was a bit of a culture shock to me. In the fall of 1987, I was walking down Franklin and I saw a LONG line going out the door. Obviously curious, I later found out that it was the grand opening of ... Taco Bell. (BryanZ, just be thankful you & your friends have a PF Chang's to go to). Mind you, one pleasant surprise I noticed during my two-year stay in Carolina was a small Chinese market on Rosemary that made fresh tofu.

The attitude I had coming to the Carrboro/Chapel Hill area was to embrace the local scene for what it is, in its own context without the constant comparisons. I knew it wasn't LA or California. Instead, I ate fried okra at the Carolina Inn. I had country ham with red-eye gravy. I was invited to a pig pickin', with the slaw and the hushpuppies and the chopped pork mixed with some Pistol Pete and the Luzianne iced tea (Boy, I miss that). I did go eat at Crook's Corner. I heard about La Residence. As a student, I never went there. I did eat at the Chinese restaurants in Carrboro & in Chapel Hill. Fortunately, I got to know some of the local Chinese as personal friends.

Hopefully, my walk through memory lane in Carolina will help illustrate ChefSwartz' statement that things do move slowly in the South. The South is not fast-paced like NYNY or LALA. If you get the opportunity to have some home cooked meals with a local family, just do it!! Those were some of the best times I had in Carolina.

[BryanZ]

I appreciate the anecdotes. I'm trying to embrace the differences and the unique aspects of the area, so I guess that's why this thread is a good place to discuss such things. The "Southern" food in the area is very good, and, as far as yanks go, I'm a huge fan of barbeque, pig pickin', sweet tea, and hush puppies, etc.. I'm still coming to terms with the supposedly "slow" nature of the South and have learned a lot from this thread already. I hope the discussion continues.