Food Pronunciation Guide for the Dim-witted

[gourmande]

Oui Gourmande or is Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!! 

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ouï-dire, oui... the ouïe seems to be at the root of the problem...

[chefzadi]

Born in Lyon (same as the Parisian dialect, the differences are negligable, For instance if you take an educated person from Los Angeles, let's say my wife when she travels to New York or San Francisco she is always assumed to be a local), schooled in Paris lived there for years.

"vin"="veh"  I just don't get this.

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Cassell's has the following pronunciation:

"tast[upside-down "e", which I don't know how to type on my computer]-'v[backward capital "E," which I can't type and for which I used "EH(N)]."

The last syllable definitely has a short "e" sound, not an "a."

Look up "tastevin" in Casell's or Petit Larrousse, and you'll see what I mean. Maybe we are pronouncing it the same way!

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I won't be looking it up. If you aren't pronouncing it the way I am, well then you are as they say in France a "peg".

Audio, please!

All in good fun Brownie, Don't flame me!

[therese]

Where is that eG audio feature! 

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Even having an eGullet audio feature would not be of much help. Anglophones have trouble hearing very basic francophone sounds, and that's pretty much all there is to it. Ideally you've got somebody sitting right there in front of you. Remember Eliza Doolittle in "My Fair Lady"? That's what it takes.

The very fact that so many people (who very clearly know exactly how to say the whatever word's at issue) have difficulty rendering a phonetic spelling that's understandable to somebody who is anglophone speaks to the fact that these sounds simply do not exist in English.

That said, it's not really all that difficult to generate an approximate sound that will be understood by both anglophone and francophone.

Gourmande's "vei(n)" does yield a pretty good approximation for "vin". True, the speaker sounds vaguely like a Marseillais cab driver (and if you happen to be or be related to a Marseillais cab driver I mean no slight, I think highly of cab drivers everywhere), but it's better than a lot of other approximations.

[Abra]

Ok, I gotta ask this. I speak French with a good accent - people don't know I'm American in France, more they think I'm German, for some reason. Vin is vin, right? And even in tastevin, the vin is still pronounced like vin, right? I don't get the vei stuff myself. Is that just for people who don't know how to pronounce vin, or are you saying there's a different pronunciation for this word only?

And waaay back in the thread, with millefeuille. I hear the "l"s a little myself, when I say it. I sure don't say mee-feuille, but I hit the l lightly. Isn't that how everyone says it? Like in mille neuf cent, you still hear the l. Non?

Now pronouncing Thai and Vietnamese dishes, that's what I think is really hard.

[gourmande]

what the ... ... see later post...

Edited February 21, 2005 by gourmande (log)

[Pan]

[...]Like in mille neuf cent, you still hear the l.  Non?[...]

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I don't think I have. I'll admit that I speak French with somewhat of an American accent (though French people have also thought I was German), but I do think my ears are good.

[gourmande]

Even having an eGullet audio feature would not be of much help. Anglophones have trouble hearing very basic francophone sounds, and that's pretty much all there is to it. Ideally you've got somebody sitting right there in front of you. Remember Eliza Doolittle in "My Fair Lady"? That's what it takes...

Thanks... that's the business promo I need

Gourmande's "vei(n)" does yield a pretty good approximation for "vin". True, the speaker sounds vaguely like a Marseillais cab driver ...

Ah! But who is your speaker? Leads us back to how you hear and interpret sounds. "Vei(n)" has worked well with the students I have had here (southern Ontario), but my choices might be different if I were in Newfoundland or Arkansas... though I may never know for sure

Moral of the story: regional inflections make the world go round.

[chefzadi]

Yes, in tastevin, "vin" is till vin/wine. Nasal.

millefeuille, don't pronounce the l's in feuille.

mille= meel (light tongue with the "l" sound)

P.S. They think you're German? Do you think that's preferable to sounding American? Fun, fun, joke alert. Don't flame me you crazy Anglophones!

[gourmande]

Yes, in tastevin, "vin" is till vin/wine. Nasal.

millefeuille, don't pronounce the l's in feuille.

mille= meel (light tongue with the "l" sound)

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Agree...

In my experience I've found the euille and eu sounds the most difficult to work with. So don't let it inhibit you, whatever you manage, feel good about it!

[chefzadi]

An audio feature would be of tremendous value more than these wordgames we are playing.

[chefzadi]

Yes, in tastevin, "vin" is till vin/wine. Nasal.

millefeuille, don't pronounce the l's in feuille.

mille= meel (light tongue with the "l" sound)

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Agree...

In my experience I've found the euille and eu sounds the most difficult to work with. So don't let it inhibit you, whatever you manage, feel good about it!

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Ya think?

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

pronounce this! (not you Gourmande, no test for you required )

roulliure

[ahr]

Dueling transliterations aside, does everyone agree that vin is pronounced comme ci?

[chefzadi]

Dueling transliterations aside, does everyone agree that vin is pronounced comme ci?

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He speaks French with an American accent. More nasal neededl, otherwise it's okay.

EDIT:

Nasal not nasa. oops.

Edited February 21, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[gourmande]

Dueling transliterations aside, does everyone agree that vin is pronounced comme ci?

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Close enough.

[therese]

Dueling transliterations aside, does everyone agree that vin is pronounced comme ci?

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He speaks French with an American accent. More nasal neededl, otherwise it's okay.

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He may well speak with an accent, but it's altogether unlikely that his accent is of U.S provenance.

You must have missed this earlier post upthread...

I visited that site. He's non-native French speaker, I'm guessing American. This can be an advantage to the American learner though. The sounds he makes are more mimicable (is that a word?) for an American. And certainly at his level he would be easily understood, well at least in Paris.

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If he's American he's remarkably good, and has either lived in a francophone environment, or been very specifically trained to make certain sounds (like "b" at the beginning of a word), and remarkably polyglot at that: as per the web site his name is Eddie Maamry. You can view some biographical information on him by visiting the National Center for Hospitality Studies site and clicking on the Hospitality/Restaurant Management drop-down, where you can then click on his name (which is actually Abdeljalil, Eddie apparently being a nickname).

My son's French teacher, Madame Okou, speaks French with a strong accent, but she would be chagrined to hear her French described as non-native. Not native to France, but French is her maternal language nonetheless.

A nice site, by the way, particularly the syllable by syllable pronunciations.

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[therese]

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

pronounce this!

roulliure

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Surely you can come up with something more difficult than this?

[chefzadi]

Dueling transliterations aside, does everyone agree that vin is pronounced comme ci?

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He speaks French with an American accent. More nasal neededl, otherwise it's okay.

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He may well speak with an accent, but it's altogether unlikely that his accent is of U.S provenance.

You must have missed this earlier post upthread...

I visited that site. He's non-native French speaker, I'm guessing American. This can be an advantage to the American learner though. The sounds he makes are more mimicable (is that a word?) for an American. And certainly at his level he would be easily understood, well at least in Paris.

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If he's American he's remarkably good, and has either lived in a francophone environment, or been very specifically trained to make certain sounds (like "b" at the beginning of a word), and remarkably polyglot at that: as per the web site his name is Eddie Maamry. You can view some biographical information on him by visiting the National Center for Hospitality Studies site and clicking on the Hospitality/Restaurant Management drop-down, where you can then click on his name (which is actually Abdeljalil, Eddie apparently being a nickname).

My son's French teacher, Madame Okou, speaks French with a strong accent, but she would be chagrined to hear her French described as non-native. Not native to France, but French is her maternal language nonetheless.

A nice site, by the way, particularly the syllable by syllable pronunciations.

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I didn't miss the "upthread". His accent is American. PERIOD.

[therese]

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

pronounce this!

roulliure

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Surely you can come up with something more difficult than this?

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Or did you perhaps mean "rouillure"?

[chefzadi]

I don't really care. I will bow out of these pronunciation games at egullet. Speak French the way you want. I was only trying to help. All of this is too tiring for me. It's bizarre.

[therese]

I don't really care. I will bow out of these pronunciation games at egullet. Speak French the way you want. I was only trying to help. All of this is too tiring for me. It's  bizarre.

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Nous sommes, en fin, du même avis.

[chefzadi]

I don't really care. I will bow out of these pronunciation games at egullet. Speak French the way you want. I was only trying to help. All of this is too tiring for me. It's  bizarre.

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Nous sommes, en fin, du même avis.

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Quoi??? I'm not on same page as you. Maybe Gourmande.

EDIT: I mean I agree with Gourmande thus far.

Edited February 21, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[Ben Hong]

Comme on dit dans le region d' Abitibi du Quebec: "taberrrrnacle".

[gourmande]

I don't really care. I will bow out of these pronunciation games at egullet. Speak French the way you want. I was only trying to help. All of this is too tiring for me. It's  bizarre.

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Please don't, you are indeed very helpful.

Let's all move on ... ?

[therese]

I don't really care. I will bow out of these pronunciation games at egullet. Speak French the way you want. I was only trying to help. All of this is too tiring for me. It's  bizarre.

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Please don't, you are indeed very helpful.

Let's all move on ... ?

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Not a problem. The field is now entirely open.

[chefzadi]

I don't really care. I will bow out of these pronunciation games at egullet. Speak French the way you want. I was only trying to help. All of this is too tiring for me. It's  bizarre.

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Please don't, you are indeed very helpful.

Let's all move on ... ?

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Not a problem. The field is now entirely open.

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The field is open for what? For poor French?

Once again, audio please.