Food Pronunciation Guide for the Dim-witted

[chezcherie]

test e vahn (e like hiccup) does that make it clear? 

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first and last syllable equally accented? thanks!

[therese]

I have no clue when it comes to Italian. Guanciale?

Are there consistent rules for pronunciation in French? I thought I remembered these from school but it sure has been a while.

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guanciale = gwahn-CHAH-lay (I'm assuming that Behemoth is anglophone here)

There are consistent rules for pronunication in French, and they're very helpful.

But they tend to break down in two instances: proper names of things like towns, (particularly if they're in parts of France that once belonged to another country) and wines and so forth, and words that have been imported from other languages. And even words that have been imported from other languages will eventually be pronounced according to French rules once they've wholeheartedly joined the lexicon. Usually.

Overall French (like Italian and Spanish) follows very straightforward rules of pronunciation. A problematic language for non-natives because to sound convincing requires re-training of both ones ear and ones mouth. Re-training your mouth means doing things like being aware of where your tongue hits the roof of your mouth when you say "t" or when you open your lips when you say "b".

This issue devils native French speakers when they speak English, of course, and so they rarely lose their accents unless they've been in an anglophone environment as children.

[chefzadi]

test e vahn (e like hiccup) does that make it clear? 

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first and last syllable equally accented? thanks!

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equally accented, yes. I've repeated it outloud several times now. I can't hear myself placing an emphasis on the vin, but my wife says maybe just a tiny bit. But she's not a native speaker and doesn't have the "ear" I do.

[therese]

test e vahn (e like hiccup) does that make it clear? 

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first and last syllable equally accented? thanks!

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Is the "n" pronounced? Or is it just there to indicate that the vowel is nasal?

[chefzadi]

Again, I can't hear myself pronouncing the "n". Yes, nasal.

But my wife keeps giving me puzzled looks. She's hearing things this morning.

Edited February 20, 2005 by chefzadi (log)

[Susan in FL]

Guanciale?

Gwahn-ch'YAH-leh

[kitchenmage]

At least German is always consistent.

ei is always pronounced eye  (e.g. eigen = eye-gen)

ie is always pronounced ee (e.g. riesen = ree-sen)

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so if it starts with an "e" it's pronounced "i" and vice versa? how <i> helpful</i>

i'll have to sit the kid down with this thread when she comes for a visit and see how those french lessons i paid for are working...

[Behemoth]

At least German is always consistent.

ei is always pronounced eye  (e.g. eigen = eye-gen)

ie is always pronounced ee (e.g. riesen = ree-sen)

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so if it starts with an "e" it's pronounced "i" and vice versa? how <i> helpful</i>

I think the idea is that is the sound you get if you pronounce the E (as you would in "ever") followed immediately by an I sound. If you would like to hear it properly pronounced, ask anybody who has taken a little college math how to pronounce "eigenvalue". I guess that was why it made sense to me at the time.

I learned French as a second language in a former French colony so I can manage the vowel pronounciations but I really need a solid review to get back to where I was as a kid. German I seem to use all the time these days...even though I learned it as an adult I found the pronounciation to be no problem.

I would love to learn Italian and Spanish at some point.

[therese]

I learned French as a second language in a former French colony so I can manage the vowel pronounciations but I really need a solid review to get back to where I was as a kid. German I seem to use all the time these days...even though I learned it as an adult I found the pronounciation to be no problem.

I would love to learn Italian and Spanish at some point.

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Yes, German's both much easier for the anglophone to hear and much easier to reproduce, as the various vowels and consonants sounds are so close to English. Words also have inherent accents on specific syllables, as opposed to languages like French where the emphasis on a word or syllable depends on its position with the the sentence.

Since you've already got French as a second language (and as a child, all the better) you could easily improve on-line, not necessarily with French instruction sites specifically, but instead by reading things like Le Monde. Reading them out loud forces you to listen to yourself, and see which sounds don't ring true.

Italian and Spanish are both much easier than French to pronounce (from an anglophone perspective), but with very nearly identical grammars. I've had exactly zero instruction in Spanish, but can read it reasonably well, understand most of what's said to me (or overheard, not that I would eavesdrop on purpose), and can make myself understood in a thoroughly primitive way.

[kitchenmage]

I think the idea is that is the sound you get if you pronounce the E (as you would in "ever") followed immediately by an I sound. If you would like to hear it properly pronounced, ask anybody who has taken a little college math how to pronounce "eigenvalue". I guess that was why it made sense to me at the time.

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oops, behemoth, sorry wasn't actually snarking at you--although i can see how it looked that way... slaps hand for clicking to post before checking for directional tags on my sarcasm... (where's the chaGrin smilie when you need it?) and i feel doubly bad because i've learned a <i>lot</i> from reading your posts...

'twas the people who do things seemingly backwards... your explanation of it is most useful, it's the people who decided to do it that way that i'm confused by... but i am sure it makes sense if you're german, and then we're backwards...

(tangential backstory)

i am a long-time IT person, and Windows has this <i>truly stupid</i> naming convention... the hard drive partition that you boot from is called the "system partition" and the partition that the system is stored on is called the "boot partition"... and they used to make this a question on their certification tests... i think it was purely to trap people who hadn't gone to an expensive class where they reminded you of such things... anyway, when i read your explanation, that is what flashed into my mind... another confusing reversed thing!

your explanation actually helped... and then i was inadvertantly rude... i am going to go slink off ino a corner and shut up...

(so am i supposed to say i edited this to fix a typo?)

Edited February 20, 2005 by kitchenmage (log)

[Behemoth]

oops, behemoth, sorry wasn't actually snarking at you--although i can see how it looked that way... slaps hand for clicking to post before checking for directional tags on my sarcasm...  (where's the chaGrin smilie when you need it?) and i feel doubly bad because i've learned a <i>lot</i> from reading your posts...

Ha, I didn't take it as snark at all -- I make fun of the German languange all the time. While the pronounciation makes sense to me the grammar probably never will.

So as an IT person, you count as a math nerd. Here's my mnemonic: ei = eigenvalue, ie = Riemann.

[ludja]

At least German is always consistent.

ei is always pronounced eye  (e.g. eigen = eye-gen)

ie is always pronounced ee (e.g. riesen = ree-sen)

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so if it starts with an "e" it's pronounced "i" and vice versa? how <i> helpful</i>

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A pneumonic phrase to help in remembering "ei" and "ie" German pronunciation is:

EIsenhower's nIEce

[gourmande]

Again, I can't hear myself pronouncing the "n". Yes, nasal.

But my wife keeps giving me puzzled looks. She's hearing things this morning.   

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Tout à fait ! The n is nasal like the root word itself: vin

There is an alternate word and pronunciation:

Tâte-vin, pronounced tawt-vei(n) ... the n being silent

In helping anglophones with French pronunciation, I have found that the word "vein" (stopping just short the n) works well with most.

Edit: taste-vin: the word that started this particular string of posts...

Edited February 20, 2005 by gourmande (log)

[esperanza]

What an elucidating morning I've had, reading this entire thread. I'm particularly fond of Ludja's pneumonic device--in my mind's garage, there now dwells a wee charming air pump that will help me remember these pronunciations. Its cousin, the mnemonic device, contains one of the weirdest-spelt words in the English language.

One nit-picky correction: there is no PIE in paella. It's pronounced pah-EH-yah, or as someone else pointed out, pah-EH-zyah. The elision between the 'pah' and the 'EH' can make it seem to the non-Spanish-speaker that the PIE exists, but in fact it does not.

[browniebaker]

test e vahn (e like hiccup) does that make it clear? 

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I think you have mistakenly inverted the "ah" and "eh" sounds in the word. It's in fact "tahs-tuh-VEH(N)," the last syllable accented and ending with a nasal sound.

[chefzadi]

test e vahn (e like hiccup) does that make it clear? 

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I think you have mistakenly inverted the "ah" and "eh" sounds in the word. It's in fact "tahs-tuh-VEH(N)," the last syllable accented and ending with a nasal sound.

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Clearly there are some inconsistencies when trying to phonetically spell out French words for the English speaker.

Browniebaker "vin" prounounced "veh". What dialect of French did you learn?

I'll change it to tes te ("e" sound like they pronounce at the end in the South of France) vah (nasal, no emphasis on the last syllable). Tes te vah. It can also be pronounced Tas te vah. The first syllable can be can be pronounced with an "ah" or "eh" sound.

Maybe I'm explaining it all wrong.

[browniebaker]

test e vahn (e like hiccup) does that make it clear? 

←

I think you have mistakenly inverted the "ah" and "eh" sounds in the word. It's in fact "tahs-tuh-VEH(N)," the last syllable accented and ending with a nasal sound.

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Clearly there are some inconsistencies when trying to phonetically spell out French words for the English speaker.

Browniebaker "vin" prounounced "veh". What dialect of French did you learn?

I'll change it to tes te ("e" sound like they pronounce at the end in the South of France) vah (nasal, no emphasis on the last syllable). Tes te vah. It can also be pronounced Tas te vah. The first syllable can be can be pronounced with an "ah" or "eh" sound.

Maybe I'm explaining it all wrong.

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Parisian. Or as the Parisians would say, no dialect at all! What dialect are you speaking?

Edited February 20, 2005 by browniebaker (log)

[gourmande]

test e vahn (e like hiccup) does that make it clear? 

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I think you have mistakenly inverted the "ah" and "eh" sounds in the word. It's in fact "tahs-tuh-VEH(N)," the last syllable accented and ending with a nasal sound.

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being the picky sort I am... the a in the first syllable is pronounced like the a in the French amour, manie, or the English mat, flat...

thus Tasst(e)-vei(n) ... (ref my earlier post re use of the word vein)

...There is an alternate word and pronunciation:

Tâte-vin, pronounced tawt-vei(n)  ... the n being silent

In helping anglophones with French pronunciation, I have found that the word "vein" (stopping just short the n) works well with most.

[chefzadi]

Born in Lyon (same as the Parisian dialect, the differences are negligable, For instance if you take an educated person from Los Angeles, let's say my wife when she travels to New York or San Francisco she is always assumed to be a local), schooled in Paris lived there for years.

"vin"="veh" I just don't get this.

[chefzadi]

We really need audio here on egullet.

[chezcherie]

We really need audio here on egullet. 

i was thinking the same thing. i still don't know how to pronounce it! tas(t)-veh? tast-veh? you say tomato....

Edited February 20, 2005 by chezcherie (log)

[browniebaker]

Born in Lyon (same as the Parisian dialect, the differences are negligable, For instance if you take an educated person from Los Angeles, let's say my wife when she travels to New York or San Francisco she is always assumed to be a local), schooled in Paris lived there for years.

"vin"="veh"   I just don't get this.

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Cassell's has the following pronunciation:

"tast[upside-down "e", which I don't know how to type on my computer]-'v[backward capital "E," which I can't type and for which I used "EH(N)]."

The last syllable definitely has a short "e" sound, not an "a."

Look up "tastevin" in Casell's or Petit Larrousse, and you'll see what I mean. Maybe we are pronouncing it the same way!

Edited February 20, 2005 by browniebaker (log)

[Pan]

I have no clue when it comes to Italian. Guanciale?

At least German is always consistent.[...]

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Italian in my experience is totally consistent (within dialects, of course). Gu = gw. Ca would equal "ka," but the addition of the "i" after the "c" creates a "ch" sound. It looks like it should be "gwahn-CHYAH-lei" but it's really "gwahn-CHAH-lei." Similarly, "Giovanni"="Jo-VAHN-nee." The "i" simply makes the preceding consonant "soft." It really isn't that complicated; you just have to learn the connection between spelling and pronunciation, and then you know. As others have pointed out, it's not that hard for English-speakers to learn how to pronounce Italian, except for people who can't help saying their "o"s with a "w" sound no matter what.

I've been thinking about this for a long time, but haven't mentioned yet that: You folks think this is hard? Try Hungarian! They have a long and short schwa sound and long and short sounds equivalent to German u+umlaut, and the length of those vowels as well as their precise pronunciation affects comprehension and meaning to a large degree! Just about the only thing I find easy about Hungarian is that the first syllable of every word is almost always stressed. One of the easier things to say is paprikas csirke (PAH-pree-kash CHEER-k@, with @=schwa). But how about somloi galuska? "SHOM-loi GO-lush-ko," from what I remember.

[gourmande]

How one pronounces "eh" is yet another key/trick/problem... non?

One thing is certain, the French digraphs in, en, an, on, ou, eu... parmi others, are very difficult to express or otherwise translate in written terms.

Where is that eG audio feature!

edit: re use of the English pronunciation "veh" for the French term "vin" (and homonymns vingt or vint for that matter...)

I still prefer "vei(n)"

Edited February 20, 2005 by gourmande (log)

[chefzadi]

Oui Gourmande or is Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!