The impending disappearance of Southern Food

[robyn]

Hand made food is disappearing from every corner of our country (indeed the world) but here in the South we take more pride in our food stuffs than in any other part of the country.  Witness the SFA.  Is there a similar fraternity dedicated to preserving the potato culture of Idaho?  Doubtful.  I am a member of the SFA but keep in mind that the SFA is preaching to the choir, what member of SFA is NOT dedicated to preserving Southern food heritage?  It is my position that the folks that need the SFA the most (working class) have little to no interest in making anything by hand because it is too damn easy to get a fried pork biscuit at Hardee's!

Hand made food is quickly becoming the hobby of the wealthy.  Who else has so much time on their hands that they can actually cook something from scratch? 

I have often asked my cooking class students to complete this statement: All great cuisines have their beginnings in_____

Anyone want to take a stab at my answer?

I'll give you a hint...Pate'.

←

Most "country" pate is made from leftovers - scraps - because chefs never throw anything away. That's a no-no in professional kitchens. One keeps waste at a minimum. So I supposed Gifted Gourmet's answer could be one correct answer. Or another variant would be using creativity to spin straw into gold. Taking the dregs and turning them into something wonderful. I am not sure that all great cuisines have their beginnings in that - but there are certainly a lot of enjoyable cuisines that have their origins in that kind of "Depression mentality". Moreover - a lot of these cuisines engender nostalgia - they bring up memories of childhood - and family - and family traditions. If I'm warm - let me know.

BTW - I'm not so sure about the SFA. Like the subject of its 2004 conference - food and race relations - exploring race through the lens of foodways. This might play well on college campuses - and among a certain subset of southern intellectuals - but I doubt it's calculated to bring working class southern white people back to making homemade cornbread. The last thing a southern working class white person wants to hear is a debate over whether his grandmother's cornbread recipe came from her grandmother - or the family slaves (and - at least according to periodicals like the NYT - there were a whole lot of arguments like this at that conference). You might as well hand out free meal coupons for Kystal hamburgers.

Also - I don't have a dog in this fight. As a white Jewish person who was born in the north - I just like eating and cooking different kinds of food. When I lived in Miami - I learned to cook Cuban food. When I moved to north Florida - I learned to cook southern food. The unfortunate thing about both cuisines is if you cook them traditionally - they're pretty bad for you health-wise (which isn't uncommon for "Depression mentality" ethnic cuisines - my grandmothers' recipes call for healthy doses of chicken fat - they're your basic "heart attack" food). So they don't appear on our table too often. Robyn

[SethG]

... I look askance at efforts to try to cast in stone "traditions"  that were in large part the result of miserable economic conditions.  Robyn

←

In other words, you look askance at most great food traditions.

It is undeniable that women, who were once relegated to the kitchen, are in general to be credited with the survival of home cooking until recent times. It does not follow that a current call to preserve or restore home cooking is a call for the subjugation of women. Far from it.

[robyn]

... I look askance at efforts to try to cast in stone "traditions"  that were in large part the result of miserable economic conditions.  Robyn

←

In other words, you look askance at most great food traditions.

It is undeniable that women, who were once relegated to the kitchen, are in general to be credited with the survival of home cooking until recent times. It does not follow that a current call to preserve or restore home cooking is a call for the subjugation of women. Far from it.

←

Last time I looked - you were a lawyer. You were lucky enough to get a lot of time off from work after the birth of a child - and you could immerse yourself in what The Cynical Chef called "The Hobby of the Wealthy" - making handmade food (and I enjoyed the thread!). Now I know you don't think of yourself as "wealthy" - but most working class people in most parts of the US would think you wealthy: 1) if you got paid childbirth leave; or 2) you could afford to take off so much time in unpaid childbirth leave. I'm not fussing at you in particular - I can afford to do the same things - even without having a baby . So can a lot of people here. But the point is most people can't.

So how does one get the great food traditions of home cooking when a husband and wife are both working 40+ hours a week and trying to raise a couple of kids in the process? When my husband and I were working (we're both lawyers too) - we were each putting in 40-60 hours a week - and - even without kids - the last thing we wanted to do when we left the office at 7-8 was put anything on the table. That's how I learned a lot about restaurants . I assume you are back at work now - putting in long hours - and that your wife is still working a full-time job - and that your cooking efforts have been curtailed somewhat. If they haven't been - then I tip my hat to you - you have more stamina than I do. Robyn

P.S. For those of those who think we worked so hard because of TV or ads or consumerism - you've never been a trial lawyer. You get out of the courtroom - and then you head back to the office for a few hours (at a minimum) to get ready for tomorrow. If you're a doctor like my brother - it's up at 5 to the hospital - last patient at maybe 5-6 - and you have about 3 hours before you're ready to crash. There are a lot of jobs where one can work fewer hours and a regular workweek - but a lot of those jobs don't pay enough so one can afford help. So when you get home - it's helping the kids with homework while you catch up on a few loads of laundry. So who has the time to spend 3 hours a day in the kitchen (even if one cooks Rachel Ray's 30 minute meals - unless you want to lose a couple of fingers - they'd take most people a lot more time).

[Jaymes]

Oh, Lordy me.

[Mayhaw Man]

Before I begin this post let me say just how hard I am trying to keep from deleting some of this stuff as I believe that, once again, some users are trying to bring out the worst in others. That being said, I may still delete a number of these posts if this otherwise fascinating thread continues to drift into the political arena away from food.

I have been watching this thread with interest as it brings up some very good points. As everyone who has ever read any of my three thousand posts knows, I am from the South. It's not a contest, and if it was I probably wouldn't win, but I'd be in the hunt.

My family is from the two sides of the thing. My father's family background is that of hardscrabble backwoods redneck folk who cut wood and worked in paper mills(I should point out, in case he reads this, that he is a very successful attorney with a wall full of degrees from respectable places ). My mother's family has been here since Georgia was England and ain't never been in the poor house.

The one thing that my two grandmother's had in common was food. They had grown up eating pretty much identical things. They had little in common other than the South. One was raised in East Texas pretty well to do, and the other was raised inmill towns in South Arkansas, pretty well poor. But they could both cook, both bake, both were genius level candy cooks, and they both took great pride in their skills.

These were passed on to the next generation and have now been passed on to me. I make stuff from scratch and so do my brothers. I put up peas, butter beans, chow chow, relish, pickles, jelly, etc. just like they did. I know lots of people that do. It is anything, this Southern Food thing, but dying. What it is though, is at home. The Southern Food that is being referred to is food that people eat at home. Not only did people not eat out here on a regular basis for the first 2/3 of the twentieth century, but they didn't even go out much. It was, and is among some of us anyway, all about family and gathering. While many of you put together a big meal for a few holidays a year, there are still some of us who get together alot and just eat and laugh and cry and fight and love. It's what we do. It's not dying.

Now, one thing I will agree with here, is that the rural Southern traditions have changed. People work away from small farms (good thing, hard to make a living that way, always has been), and now, when they can find a decent job, it's usually in a city or in a factory located outside of one (car plants seem to be very popular here, due to cheap labor and a work force that actually works). There are alot more people eating out because of two workers in families and also because there is a hell of a lot more expendable income than 50 years ago. So people eat out. But one thing that has changed very little is what happens when families gather.

Out comes the stuff that is familiar and, for lack of a better term, comforting. Tables groaning with peas, cornbread (sweet and unsweet-they are both just fine and some people like one and some the other-the whole argument there is kind of rediculous), butter beans, chicken, pork, turkey, casseroles (a highly underrated category, in my book) of all kinds, desserts out the wazoo, and lots of good coffee. Some football action out in the yard and then a big nap for the whole bunch. Maybe some late afternoon card or board games and then out come the leftovers and another delicious repast. People, lots and lots of people, still do this stuff, and I am not just talking about the great unwashed masses mentioned above, but regular people. Regular working folks who have a little more money now, but still have the ability to identify what's good and what's important.

A romantic vision? Maybe a little. But not much. Try to find an open restaurant on a holiday in any small or medium size town in the South. Good luck. If it's not a chain or a hotel, it probably won't be open. There is no tradition of eating out on holidays here. Holidays are meant for family and home, and even though you can always take your family out to eat, people would rather be at home.

No. The foodways here are alive and well, just different and evolving. Frankly, I wish more people would look past the end of their noses to see them. They might be suprised.

[SethG]

Now I know you don't think of yourself as "wealthy" - but most working class people in most parts of the US would think you wealthy:  1) if you got paid childbirth leave; or 2) you could afford to take off so much time in unpaid childbirth leave.  I'm not fussing at you in particular - I can afford to do the same things - even without having a baby  .  So can a lot of people here.  But the point is most people can't.

←

Look, I don't think I made my profession or economic situation an issue here. And to the extent that you seem to suggest that I'm too rich to understand how most people struggle, I think you are "fussing" with me in particular.

But I assure you that you're wrong in many of your assumptions. I am very fortunate (we can afford for the moment to live in Brooklyn, which I guess makes us rich compared to most of the world)-- but my wife and I work very long work weeks, and I still bake bread at least three times a week and cook dinner most nights. I do this because I want to, and I enjoy it. If I didn't love it, I wouldn't do it. It's no sacrifice.

You obviously don't love to cook that much. You love food, and you express it in other ways. But other people may have different priorities than you do. And if you value good home cooking, rich or poor you can do it if you want to. You seem to be saying that continuing the tradition of cooking "from scratch" requires either a trust fund or the subjugation of one of the genders. And it isn't so. It isn't so for rich people, and it isn't so for many of the poor immigrant populations I have some contact with in New York. If anything, the poor immigrants, working their asses off, have much greater familiarity with traditional cooking than any group of rich people I've ever seen.

[Cucina]

I believe that, once again, some users are trying to bring out the worst in others. That being said, I may still delete a number of these posts if this otherwise fascinating thread continues to drift into the political arena away from food.

←

I agree with Mayhaw man. We need to get back on topic. Jaymes - tell us about yourself.

Edited November 14, 2004 by Cucina (log)

[Jaymes]

Just in the interest of full disclosure, following the fine example set by MM, I may have been in Missouri for about a year now, but I have also lived in Alabama and Texas. Oh, and Florida -- Orlando (pre-Disney, which back then was really Georgia), and Ft. Walton Beach.

And "my people" (that's a southern expression) are all originally from east Texas and Tennessee.

I come from a long line of legendary southern cooks, including my grandmother who owned several southern-style, home-cooking restaurants on the Texas-Louisiana line, way down by the Gulf. My father learned to cook in his mother's kitchens, both at home and in the restaurants, and it is he who passed it on to me.

I don't know if that makes me any sort of authority. But what it DOES make me is blessed.

[Cucina]

I come from a long line of legendary southern cooks, including my grandmother who owned several southern-style, home-cooking restaurants on the Texas-Louisiana line, way down by the Gulf. 

←

So what are your favorite family recipies? fess up...

[foodie52]

I'm really enjoying this topic. I'd like to throw in a quick observation as well.

I'm not a Southerner: actually, it doesn't matter where I'm from to make my point.

I've raised two kids, both of whom watched me cook most nights while growing up. We had sit-down dinners most nights. They love my cooking. I guess they acquired a love of food through osmosis.

So my daughter is in college, living in a tiny garage apartment. Last night she called ....four times..... while making chicken soup with matzoh balls for herself and her boyfriend, both of whom were feeling under the weather. She called to find out if she needed eggs for the matzoh balls, how much garlic she could put in the soup, how long it needed to cook, etc. Four phone calls. The point is, she remembers my soup and wants to replicate it. Now she knows how to make it.

I anticipate lots of phone calls over the next 20 years! I really do think that there's more "passing down" of food traditions than we think out there.

Thanks to cell phones......

[Gifted Gourmet]

Food Writers in a thriving, sophisticated Southern town CAN'T COOK!  Where is the ghost of Bill Neal when you need him!

←

At my first, quick cursory reading of this thread, Cynical Chef, I was unaware of your reference to Bill Neal .. with a bit of Googling, I found what is indeed a treasure trove of his writing in his numerous books:

Bill Neal's southern food writings ..lots of them!

Bill Neal's Southern Cooking

Biscuits, Spoonbread, and Sweet Potato Pie

Good Old Grits Cookbook : Have Grits Your Way

The Last Frontier : The Story of Hardeman County

Remembering Bill Neal : Favorite Recipes from a Life in Cooking

Through the Garden Gate

Back to Cynical Chef's initial premise: I was reading an article from CNN which directly touched upon this topic and it noted:

"The South is marked by vast areas of change." What geographers see is a region where "migrants and immigrants" continue the influx of "outlanders," said Pillsbury, with Atlanta, with its large population of non-natives, the ultimate example. "Tremendous numbers are coming in and altering Southern food and its interpretation," he said. Marvin Jones lamented that "meat and threes" are disappearing in his native south Chicago, and with them traditional Southern food.

and

Louis Osteen, Charleston restaurateur and cookbook author, says restaurants are stepping up to cook the way people once cooked at home. "There used to be a line between restaurant food and home food. Now restaurants are going to cook those foods," Osteen said.

Please read the other points on this topic as well here ... from 2000 but still insightful

[The Cynical Chef]

Food Writers in a thriving, sophisticated Southern town CAN'T COOK!  Where is the ghost of Bill Neal when you need him!

←

At my first, quick cursory reading of this thread, Cynical Chef, I was unaware of your reference to Bill Neal .. with a bit of Googling, I found what is indeed a treasure trove of his writing in his numerous books:

Bill Neal's southern food writings ..lots of them!

Bill Neal's Southern Cooking

Biscuits, Spoonbread, and Sweet Potato Pie

Good Old Grits Cookbook : Have Grits Your Way

The Last Frontier : The Story of Hardeman County

Remembering Bill Neal : Favorite Recipes from a Life in Cooking

Through the Garden Gate

Back to Cynical Chef's initial premise: I was reading an article from CNN which directly touched upon this topic and it noted:

"The South is marked by vast areas of change." What geographers see is a region where "migrants and immigrants" continue the influx of "outlanders," said Pillsbury, with Atlanta, with its large population of non-natives, the ultimate example. "Tremendous numbers are coming in and altering Southern food and its interpretation," he said. Marvin Jones lamented that "meat and threes" are disappearing in his native south Chicago, and with them traditional Southern food.

and

Louis Osteen, Charleston restaurateur and cookbook author, says restaurants are stepping up to cook the way people once cooked at home. "There used to be a line between restaurant food and home food. Now restaurants are going to cook those foods," Osteen said.

Please read the other points on this topic as well here ... from 2000 but still insightful

←

Great Cuisines have their origins in poverty which is why we have pate' in France, scrapple & hog's head cheese in the south, meat loaf in the northeast. Country Ham, Serrano & Proscuitto are all examples of salt curing pork to make it last through the winter. Refrigeration is a very recent invention but prior to that one had to be very diligent in preserving enough calories to sustain through the winter. I absolutely adore making and serving duck leg confit but this technique came about out of necessity. In the last 20 or so years the evolution of Southern cuisine has occurred in restaurants, expensive restaurants and not in homes. The grains I buy from Glenn Roberts at Anson Mills are phenomenal and are way better than my grandmother ever dreamed of but at almost $4 a pound for grits, how do I justify using them if I don't charge appropriately. But what does "Anson Mills" mean to the instant grits crowd? Not much....

Sorry, I'm rambling and losing my focus. The convenience food industry grows by leaps and bounds every day and the only restaurants that can afford to have a skilled labor force are the white table cloth ones like mine. Even if those restaurants are serving sweet potato pancakes with smoked pork shoulder, apple cider sauce, green tomato chutney and clabbered cream. Grandma would be proud!

I cannot offer any solutions to this trend but I do find it quite dismaying. The socio-economic group that should look at cooking as the focal point of their culture and a point of pride is gradually turning their noses up at real food and relying on convenience products either in the home or in moderate to inexpensive restaurants.

Please feel free to tell me I am wrong.

[robyn]

Ah - what a difference almost 10 years makes!  I just don't like sugar in cornbread and don't understand why restaurants inevitably only serve the sweet kind.  They should have both.  Can't speak for the Williams Sonoma cornbread but the recipie on the back of White Lily white cornmeail mix is fool proof.  I guess I'm spoiled or sheltered - honestly - I never knew that anyone would even consider using white bread in stuffing.  The best non white bread in the universe (above wonderbread on the foodchain but well below artisan bread because it's mass produced and has the commercial loaf shape is a bread I've only ever found in supermarkets in South Georgia called Captain John Durst's.  It's yellow.  And it's amazing for pimento cheese, grilled cheese,and turns toast into an art form.  The fact that it still exists in its small niche is proof in my book that southern foods will be around a while.  Although I must admit, we all mourned the loss of the "pickin'" plant in Brunswick, GA that would process crabmeat.  You can no longer buy fresh down there unless it's imported from Charleston or somewhere else.  And one of the restaurants on St. Simons - Barbara Jean's - known for its crab cakes flies theirs in from overseas.  That's a more ominous sign than just about anything.

←

I don't much like cornbread. But my husband does. And we both like the Williams Sonoma mix better than the recipe on the back of the White Lily cornmeal box (which is what I used to make before I found the Williams Sonoma stuff). It's more like cake than bread - which is why I suspect we like it so much .

American producers of a lot of things have priced themselves out of the market. I have a can of Phillip's crab meat in the refrigerator right now (bought at Costco) - and the crab is wild caught from Malaysia. I suspect I could get better at a high end restaurant (although the Phillip's is far from cheap) - but the lump stuff in a can is perfectly fine for home-cooked crabcakes - crab salad - etc. We have a Barbara Jeans's around the corner from where I live. Don't much care for the place (food is too salty) - but I'm sure if they used domestic instead of foreign crabs - they'd have to charge $25 for a plate of crab cakes instead of $12.

Can't say that I mourn the loss of domestic production in most areas. For example - I use a ton of pine nuts a year (for making pesto) - and when Costco started selling Chinese pine nuts - it cut my pine nuts spending by about 2/3. I know that domestic producers of other produce - like garlic - are also in trouble because of the Chinese. And in an area like gardening - everyone is worrying about the entry of the Chinese into the orchid market.

I suspect that my attitude derives at least in part from the fact that I have never lived in one of the few areas of the country where there's a large amount of local artisan produce. Florida is a very large important state in terms of the food industry - but the mainstays of the industry - the two largest are cattle and citrus for juice - and there are other biggies like "Big Sugar" - aren't the things you're likely to fawn over at the local farmer's market. In our local area - in addition to cabbage and potatoes - we also produce sweet onions - and small crops of seasonal produce like blackeyed peas - collards - etc. - but it's hard to get excited about those crops. Robyn

[Gifted Gourmet]

Great Cuisines have their origins in poverty which is why we have pate' in France, scrapple & hog's head cheese in the south, meat loaf in the northeast.  Country Ham, Serrano & Proscuitto are all examples of salt curing pork to make it last through the winter.    Refrigeration is a very recent invention but prior to that one had to be very diligent in preserving enough calories to sustain through the winter.  I absolutely adore making and serving duck leg confit but this technique came about out of necessity.  In the last 20 or so years the evolution of Southern cuisine has occurred in restaurants, expensive restaurants and not in homes.  The grains I buy from Glenn Roberts at Anson Mills are phenomenal and are way better than my grandmother ever dreamed of but at almost $4 a pound for grits, how do I justify using them if I don't charge appropriately.  But what does "Anson Mills" mean to the instant grits crowd?  Not much....

Sorry, I'm rambling and losing my focus.  The convenience food industry grows by leaps and bounds every day and the only restaurants that can afford to have a skilled labor force are the white table cloth ones like mine.  Even if those restaurants are serving sweet potato pancakes with smoked pork shoulder, apple cider sauce, green tomato chutney and clabbered cream.  Grandma would be proud!

I cannot offer any solutions to this trend but I do find it quite dismaying.  The socio-economic group that should look at cooking as the focal point of their culture and a point of pride is gradually turning their noses up at real food and relying on convenience products either in the home or in moderate to inexpensive restaurants.

Please feel free to tell me I am wrong.

←

You have only validated what I have thought: necessity and/or poverty acts as the impetus for creation of new things .. in this case, cuisine. We are of one mind on this apparently.

I do also concur with you that The socio-economic group that should look at cooking as the focal point of their culture and a point of pride is gradually turning their noses up at real food and relying on convenience products either in the home or in moderate to inexpensive restaurants.

But what, then, is the solution? Since there are fast and cheap solutions to resolve the issues of what to prepare, why would they not turn to the cheapest, quickest answers, the frozen mac and cheese?

Dismayed as well but since I am not in the business, it isn't anything I would be able to change. You, at least, have the option of doing some teaching ... albeit in your white linen tablecloth restaurant .. but who will benefit? Not, as you refer to them, the blue collar working class.

No, of course you are not wrong, CC ... it is simply a matter of what is within your power to effect a significant change. The problem is so ... well, the only word I can use is pervasive. Sadly, not exclusive to the south, to be sure.

[robyn]

Before I begin this post let me say just how hard I am trying to keep from deleting some of this stuff as I believe that, once again, some users are trying to bring out the worst in others. That being said, I may still delete a number of these posts if this otherwise fascinating thread continues to drift into the political arena away from food.

I have been watching this thread with interest as it brings up some very good points. As everyone who has ever read any of my three thousand posts knows, I am from the South.  It's not a contest, and if it was I probably wouldn't win, but I'd be in the hunt.

My family is from the two sides of the thing. My father's family background is that of hardscrabble backwoods redneck  folk who cut wood and worked in paper mills(I should point out, in case he reads this, that he is a very successful attorney with a wall full of degrees from respectable places ). My mother's family has been here since Georgia was England and ain't never been in the poor house.

The one thing that my two grandmother's had in common was food. They had grown up eating pretty much identical things. They had little in common other than the South. One was raised in East Texas pretty well to do, and the other was raised inmill towns in South Arkansas, pretty well poor. But they could both cook, both bake, both were genius level candy cooks, and they both took great pride in their skills.

These were passed on to the next generation and have now been passed on to me. I make stuff from scratch and so do my brothers. I put up peas, butter beans, chow chow, relish, pickles, jelly, etc. just like they did. I know lots of people that do. It is anything, this Southern Food thing, but dying. What it is though, is at home. The Southern Food that is being referred to is food that people eat at home. Not only did people not eat out here on a regular basis for the first 2/3 of the twentieth century, but they didn't even go out much. It was, and is among some of us anyway, all about family and gathering. While many of you put together a big meal for a few holidays a year, there are still some of us who get together alot and just eat and laugh and cry and fight and love. It's what we do. It's not dying.

Now, one thing I will agree with here, is that the rural Southern traditions have changed. People work away from small farms (good thing, hard to make a living that way, always has been), and now, when they can find a decent job, it's usually in a city or in a factory located outside of one (car plants seem to be very popular here, due to cheap labor and a work force that actually works). There are alot more people eating out because of two workers in families and also because there is a hell of a lot more expendable income than 50 years ago. So people eat out. But one thing that has changed very little is what happens when families gather.

Out comes the stuff that is familiar and, for lack of a better term, comforting. Tables groaning with peas, cornbread (sweet and unsweet-they are both just fine and some people like one and some the other-the whole argument there is kind of rediculous), butter beans, chicken, pork, turkey, casseroles (a highly underrated category, in my book) of all kinds, desserts out the wazoo, and lots of good coffee. Some football action out in the yard and then a big nap for the whole bunch. Maybe some late afternoon card or board games and then out come the leftovers and another delicious repast. People, lots and lots of people, still do this stuff, and I am not just talking about the great unwashed masses mentioned above, but regular people. Regular working folks who have a little more money now, but still have the ability to identify what's good and what's important.

A romantic vision? Maybe a little. But not much. Try to find an open restaurant on a holiday in any small or medium size town in the South. Good luck. If it's not a chain or a hotel, it probably won't be open. There is no tradition of eating out on holidays here. Holidays are meant for family and home, and even though you can always take your family out to eat, people would rather be at home.

No. The foodways here are alive and well, just different and evolving. Frankly, I wish more people would look past the end of their noses to see them. They might be suprised.

←

I'm glad you resisted the urge to delete. I know that eGullet isn't fond of discussions of non-food issues - but when the topic of the SFA conference this year was exploring race through the lens of foodways (that's really fancy - like when designers talk about colorways ) - it's apparent that when you're talking about the south - it's really hard to extricate the food from the non-food issues - especially socioeconomic issues - in a surgical way. I always knew that socioeconomic issues permeated *almost* everything here - but when I read about the SFA conference - I realized that they permeated *everything*.

FWIW - I don't think your description of what people do on holidays in the south is unique to the south. Remember "A Christmas Story" - the horrible/funny scene where the family wound up in the Chinese restaurant on Christmas because the dogs ate the turkey?

Moreover - I think that the major determinant of the type of family get-togethers you describe is physical proximity - no matter where people live. My grandparents' and parents' generations had more family get-togethers than people in my generation because they all lived relatively close to one another (NY metro area). In my generation - my husband's and my siblings are scattered throughout the country - closest is perhaps 300 miles away - furthest is 2000 miles. Doesn't make family get-togethers very easy. In addition - the older people get - the longer distances seem. Three hundred miles isn't anything when you're 40. It's a lot when you're 80. None of my inlaws' siblings came to their 50th wedding anniversary - even though they lived about 400 miles away. Perhaps southern families are somewhat behind the curve in decentralizing - but I think they'll catch up. Robyn

[Cucina]

Great Cuisines have their origins in poverty Please feel free to tell me I am wrong.

←

Cynical Chef - If great cuisines have their origins in poverty, Oh to be poor again ! It likely doesn't qualify as a southern cookbook (and when I bought an original on ebay out of curiosity I didn't know it was in reprint) but the White House Cookbook originally published in 1887 has the following recipies:

Italian Style of Dressing Truffles - Ten truffles , a quarter of a pint of salad-oil, pepper and salt to taste, tablespoonful of minced parcely, a very little finely minced garlic, two blades of pounded mace, one tablespoonful of lemon-juice. After cleansing and brushing the truffles, cut them into thin slices, and put them in a baking dish, on a seasoning of oil or butter, pepper, salt, parsley, garlic and mace, in the above proportion. Bake them for nearly an hour, and just before serving, add the lemon juice and send them to table very hot.

Oh - what I would give to be poor enough to afford 10 whole white Italian truffles for dinner! (Actually, my assumption is that they were not considered a delicacy at the time - Is that a safe assumption? Oh what I would give to return to those days!)

Edited November 15, 2004 by Cucina (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

am I in error in thinking that there are two distinctly separate discussions going on here??

[robyn]

You obviously don't love to cook that much... 

←

I enjoy cooking (like I enjoy reading, gardening, playing the piano, golf, travel, etc.). But the things I enjoy doing have to take a back seat to the things I *must* do. And I've had a bad couple of years in terms of those "must-do's". I'm certainly not unique - it's just a PITA when one has to deal with it. Robyn

[Gifted Gourmet]

While I am awaiting the answer to sorting out the focus in this discussion, here is something for you, Cucina, indicating that white truffles, especially those from Oregon, aren't quite so dear as those from Italy .. we have a thread running here on it:

Voila, the white truffle of Oregon

Back to the Cuisine of Necessity .. interesting that I have a friend in Greenville who just did a program on this at a local college.

[Cucina]

While I am awaiting the answer to sorting out the focus in this discussion, here is something for you, Cucina, indicating that white truffles, especially those from Oregon, aren't quite so dear as those from Italy .. we have a thread running here on it:

Voila, the white truffle of Oregon

Back to the Cuisine of Necessity .. interesting that I have a friend in Greenville who just did a program on this at a local college.

←

Thank you and thank you also for digging up the wonderful sources on Bill Neal that MayhawMan mentioned. They are really wonderful finds!

On the subject of food having it's origins in poverty, I am quite sure that's the case with my mother's kidneybean casserole recipie, but nonetheless, it's a family favorite! I still laugh when one year, we all went around the room to discuss our favorite thing our mother makes. My brother said kidneybean casserole with a straight face and he meant it.

[Mayhaw Man]

I'm glad you resisted the urge to delete.  I know that eGullet isn't fond of discussions of non-food issues - but when the topic of the SFA conference this year was exploring race through the lens of foodways (that's really fancy - like when designers talk about colorways  ) - it's apparent that when you're talking about the south - it's really hard to extricate the food from the non-food issues - especially socioeconomic issues - in a surgical way.  I always knew that socioeconomic issues permeated *almost* everything here - but when I read about the SFA conference - I realized that they permeated *everything*.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I will try again.

This is eGullet. We are a site dedicated to the discussion of food and dining in all imaginable facets. There are occasions when food needs to be discussed in political terminology. That's fine. Just as long as it is not partisan or personal. As far as being "not fond of non food issues", not only are we not fond of them, we pretty much don't tolerate them in large amounts. The user agreement is very clear about that and if you have any questions I suggest you give it another read. A post here and there is unavoidable and probably not even a bad thing, but a thread that goes completely astray will be repaired quickly.

Above, when I mentioned deleting posts, I was referring to the personal nature that this thread was taking and that, while the discussion is interesting and in many ways vital to what this forum is all about, I would not hesitate to whack posts, at will, if it continued in that direction. I am pretty sure that everyone here understands and I will not bring it up again.

Now, as far as the SFA and it's goals-I could not be any more proud to be a part of that organization. Anyone who questions what it is all about should take some time to look at the website and see just how all encompassing and all inclusive it really is. And as far as race and food goes-they are inextricably linked here in the South and the discussion that took place last October in Oxford could not have been any more interesting. I just wish that there had been more time for open discussion. The speakers were top notch and the subjects covered fascinating. And just for the record, socioeconomic issues permeate everything everywhere. It's silly to argue otherwise.

The subect matter here once again, is dissappearing Southern Food. Let's stick to that. That subject alone really should be plenty to talk about all by itself.

[robyn]

Great Cuisines have their origins in poverty which is why we have pate' in France, scrapple & hog's head cheese in the south, meat loaf in the northeast.  Country Ham, Serrano & Proscuitto are all examples of salt curing pork to make it last through the winter.    Refrigeration is a very recent invention but prior to that one had to be very diligent in preserving enough calories to sustain through the winter.  I absolutely adore making and serving duck leg confit but this technique came about out of necessity.  In the last 20 or so years the evolution of Southern cuisine has occurred in restaurants, expensive restaurants and not in homes.  The grains I buy from Glenn Roberts at Anson Mills are phenomenal and are way better than my grandmother ever dreamed of but at almost $4 a pound for grits, how do I justify using them if I don't charge appropriately.  But what does "Anson Mills" mean to the instant grits crowd?  Not much....

Sorry, I'm rambling and losing my focus.  The convenience food industry grows by leaps and bounds every day and the only restaurants that can afford to have a skilled labor force are the white table cloth ones like mine.  Even if those restaurants are serving sweet potato pancakes with smoked pork shoulder, apple cider sauce, green tomato chutney and clabbered cream.  Grandma would be proud!

I cannot offer any solutions to this trend but I do find it quite dismaying.  The socio-economic group that should look at cooking as the focal point of their culture and a point of pride is gradually turning their noses up at real food and relying on convenience products either in the home or in moderate to inexpensive restaurants.

Please feel free to tell me I am wrong.

←

I don't agree with your first point. Like I said in my attempt to answer your question - there are a lot of interesting cuisines that have their roots in poverty - but all great cuisines aren't cuisines of poverty (perhaps none is- but why go for the home run and a lot of extended argument ). Even some dishes which we think of as having their origins in abject poverty - like corned beef and cabbage - aren't. The Irish celebrated their arrival in the US - the land of opportunity - by buying beef (albeit a cheap cut) - because (I seem to recall) they couldn't afford beef during the potato famine.

By the way - I think there's a difference between a cuisine of poverty - and an older cooking method designed to compensate for lack of contemporary conveniences (like electricity - refrigeration - etc.). Heavily salted items - like salted cod - which appears in a lot of different cuisines - were designed to compensate for a lack of refrigeration - not a lack of money.

You know - I've eaten at a lot of "new Southern restaurants" - everything from a place like Crook's Corner many years ago to a place like Reign in Beverly Hills more recently (really high end - read expensive - fried chicken) - and lots in between. When Bill Neal started it all - it was kind of fun. It was "kick it up a notch" - but let's not pretend we're serving foie gras with truffles. And the prices and atmosphere were in line with that attitude - no $4/pound grits. And the first time you have a crab cake Benedict - well that's fun too. But "new" southern cuisine is basically the stuff your grandma (not my grandma) made - with a couple of twists. It's tasty - it's good - it's important historically - but it's not great cuisine - and when it starts to take itself too seriously - I think it falls on its face.

You know - I make shrimp and grits at home (and eggs and grits - and lots of things with grits) - and I use Quaker "quick" (not instant) grits. They're pretty good. I agree that instant grits are pretty awful. I can afford to take 5 minutes to cook grits instead of 5 seconds - but I've tried "designer grits" before - and I don't have the time to sit by the pot for hours to make them come out right. OTOH - I doubt many people would pay big bucks at a white tablecloth restaurant for shrimp and "Quaker Quick Grits" . Robyn

[Gifted Gourmet]

The subect matter here once again, is dissappearing Southern Food. Let's stick to that. That subject alone really should be plenty to talk about all by itself.

←

Thank you, Mayhaw Man, for this ...

[Cucina]

The subect matter here once again, is dissappearing Southern Food. Let's stick to that. That subject alone really should be plenty to talk about all by itself.

←

Thank you, Mayhaw Man, for this ...

←

Agreed. Cynical Chef brought up an interesting point earlier about Anson Mills that sent me scurrying out onto the internet to find out if they sell to the pubilc. Part of the problem I believe, is that there are people who would like to keep up certain traditions, but there's a lack of good ingredients out there to do it OR - as is more often the case, they are out there, but they aren't readily available in our communities and we're not sure where to find them.

A good example would be small chickens. I used to go the grocery store and the farmer's market with my Grandmother's cook Reba and learned everything I know about picking out quality meat and produce as a result. (I will eventually elaborate on some of that in the other Foodway's forum (Domestic Help and Southern Cooking).

Reba always said not to use a chicken any bigger than 2.5 pounds for frying or it just wouldn't be tasty. She was right in my opinion and it's why I rarely eat any kind of chicken anymore. You sometimes can luck out and get a small organic chicken but it's still rare.

Produce is the same thing - at least in D.C., if you find fresh black eyed peas or butterbeans at the farmer's market, they are picked too late so they are big and not nearly as tasty or worth the effort.

The good news is that the awareness of these issues is growing - you see a major turn towards organic gardening, organic produce and getting back to the pure, simple and unadulterated. I find this encouraging - in the meantime, just need good sources for the ingredients I crave - MayhawMan? Any luck on setting up a board for that purpose????

Edited November 15, 2004 by Cucina (log)

[robyn]

OK - this is the topic:

"I believe it is inevitable. Much like the disappearance of the rain forests, our beloved Southern Food, the hand made food of the working class is destined for extinction. Within my lifetime (I'm just 42!) I believe that hand made Southern food will only be found in expensive, white table cloth restaurants such as mine."

I submit that part of the premise is false. Southern food isn't disappearing. You can find shrimp and grits or crab cakes benedict on tons of menus where I live. And they're not expensive, white table cloth restaurants. And I make stuff like that at home.

And of course the "hand-made" part is true. Who has time to cook hand-made meals 100% from scratch most of the time - whether in the south or elsewhere - and - in a restaurant setting - at anything other than an expensive restaurant? Like those Anson Mill grits - they're perishable. Have to be refrigerated or frozen. And require 1-2 hours to cook. There are lots of nights we just want to make some eggs - with sausages and peppers - some cajun spice - and grits. We don't have time to cook grits for 1-2 hours. I refuse to feel guilty because we don't have the time to spend hours every night cooking dinner. Robyn