liquor as a food ingredient

[glenn]

Does anyone know the law about using alcohol in cooking w/o a liquor license? I hate to open a can of worms by calling up the local liquor board.

[tommy]

i'd think you'd want to get the real answer for something like this. although we're a wealth of info here on egullet, and we make stuff up when we don't know the answers, this might not be the type of question that you should hope for an answer for on this forum. maybe call anonymuosly? i mean the laws are a matter of public record. surely they won't ask for your name and phone number.

[glenn]

Hah, you don't know Jersey City. In the past months, I've had lots of dealings with many of the city agencies. They all give me the first degree, name, address, etc. And they normally call back, so I can't say I'm Tommy's Tamales. But you're right, and maybe this is something for my overpriced lawyer to handle.

[Curlz]

And/or let TOMMY make the call for you...!

[Betsy Alger]

And/or let TOMMY make the call for you...!       

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You can go to the web site for the NJ ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control). It is www.nj.gov/lps/abc.

[Phil Ward]

To the best of my knowledge, a BYOB may cook with alcohol and must buy it from a licensed retail shop. Almost every chef I know at BYOBs does this, daily.

They, of course, may not serve/sell the wine/spirits in an uncooked fashion to their customers.

Phil Ward

[menton1]

i'd think you'd want to get the real answer for something like this.  although we're a wealth of info here on egullet, and we make stuff up when we don't know the answers, this might not be the type of question that you should hope for an answer for on this forum.  maybe call anonymuosly?  i mean the laws are a matter of public record.  surely they won't ask for your name and phone number.

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The entire NJ law is in a .pdf file online. Under "Cooking Alcohol" it seems that only special products with added salt may be used, however, it is vague-- it prohibits using alcohol in cooking by "suspended licensees". I would assume this also means restaurants without licenses. However, I'm also sure I've been to BYOBs that say right on the menu "wine sauce" or another indication that alcohol was used in the dish's preparation.

Liquor License Handbook NJ

[glenn]

Thanks everyone. This is what is says under "cooking alcohol":

"WHAT IS “COOKING ALCOHOL” AND CAN IT BE USED BY A LICENSEE WHO IS UNDER

SUSPENSION?

Cooking alcohol is an alcohol product which has been made unfit for beverage or drinking purposes, usually

by the addition of salt. It is no longer an alcoholic beverage and is therefore not subject to Alcoholic

Beverage Control Laws and regulations. Consequently, it can be utilized by a licensee whose license is

under suspension even though no alcoholic beverage activity is permitted on the licensed premises.

A licensee under suspension, however, may not utilize any alcoholic beverage, even for cooking purposes."

That really is a ridiculous answer. Like, how many grains of salt do you need to add to make liquor acceptable as a food ingredient? According to the definition, liquor straight out of the bottle is unacceptable. I did call the ABC Board in Trenton and left a message - using Tommy's name of course. Common sense dictates that it shouldn't be a problem. I did ask my lawyer and his response was, "Call ABC." Or he'd be happy to do it for $300/hr.

[Curlz]

You're right, Glenn--that IS ridiculous. You don't want to know about 'cooking alcohol'--you want to know about cooking WITH alcohol. Our tax dollars at work...

Oh, and fwiw, I'd only charge you $250/hour to make that call. Tommy might be cheaper...

[Oceangroveguy]

Looking at the quoted section of the law on suspended establishments, I think (and this is just one man's opinion) that if you had a liquor license, and it was suspended, you couldn't even cook with booze unless it had been properly salted and rendered undrinkable.

But if you don't have a liquor license, or have one that was not impaired due to prior misconduct, there is nothing in that section that I would interpret to prohibit the use of alcoholic beverages in cooking at a restaurant

Whoever noted that many menus list wine sauces and similar items probably was on to something.

One last thought - as inane and aggressive as some gov't agency inspectors can be, I seriously doubt there'd be trouble over legitimate use of wine or booze in cooking. I can see trouble if the pork loin in Jack Daniels sauce had 4 ounces of booze and was being sold as a take out item to junior high students, but .......

[Rosie]

Glenn--Are you going to serve a merlot grilled cheese sandwich at Melt?

[menton1]

Looking at the quoted section of the law on suspended establishments, I think (and this is just one man's opinion) that if you had a liquor license, and it was suspended, you couldn't even cook with booze unless it had been properly salted and rendered undrinkable.

But if you don't have a liquor license, or have one that was not impaired due to prior misconduct, there is nothing in that section that I would interpret to prohibit the use of alcoholic beverages in cooking at a restaurant

Whoever noted that many menus list wine sauces and similar items probably was on to something.

One last thought - as inane and aggressive as some gov't agency inspectors can be, I seriously doubt there'd be trouble over legitimate use of wine or booze in cooking. I can see trouble if the pork loin in Jack Daniels sauce had 4 ounces of booze and was being sold as a take out item to junior high students, but .......

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Yes, this is what I was referring to when I said the law was vague, and even ambiguous. How ridiculous it would be, however. What is the final alcohol content of the cooked preparation, maybe 1%? (Alcohol burns off or evaporates during cooking...)

[glenn]

Glenn--Are you going to serve a merlot grilled cheese sandwich at Melt?

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Turley laced with purple haze.

Plus, I was considering adding a liqueur to my hot chocolate recipe.

[Rosie]

Glenn--Are you going to serve a merlot grilled cheese sandwich at Melt?

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Plus, I was considering adding a liqueur to my hot chocolate recipe.

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Did you want my and other egulleters opinion on that?

[Arey]

What is the final alcohol content of the cooked preparation, maybe 1%? (Alcohol burns off or evaporates during cooking...)

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[glenn]

Did you want my and other egulleters opinion on that?

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For sure. My menu is truly egalitarian :)). I vote no, if that counts. I lean more towards a mildly spicy hot chocolate. I also don't think kids and a spiked hot chocolate go very well together. I just wanted to know if it was an option.

[glenn]

I've never seen it on a menu, but someday we might see cautions that a dish on a menu  has alcohol included in the ingredients. I was making Julia's poached salmon for my brother and sister-in-law and, because of the medicine my sister-in-law was taking I had to substitute chicken broth for white wine.  My brother doesn't drink , anymore, but as his college landlady said of him in 1958 "David's very notional". Out of sympathy for my sister-in-law I don't drink in her presence which is the only thing that prevents me  from chug-a-lugging beer and letting it dribble all over me in my brother's presence.

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That's a good point and another thought. On a similar note, to the best of my knowledge, AA does not have a unified policy on the subject, or at least that was the case some years ago. There are some AA'ers though, that believe alcohol in any form is poison. Even those mouthwashes that contain alcohol. While I don't agree with that view, I certainly don't want any controversy.

[ghostrider]

I have a friend who is severely allergic to alcohol, he's very painstaking in questioning servers about what's in his food. He claims to get hives & if he gets too much, have difficulty breathing. I don't think this is anywhere near as common as nut allergies, but still....

I quit drinking in 1979, but still eat coq au vin and the like. Going to parties & bars & dining out with friends who drink doesn't bother me a whit. Sometimes I come in handy since no one needs to decide who the designated driver will be when I'm around.

[hitmanoo]

I didn't think a liquor license had anything to do with cooking with alcohol. A liquor license governs the sale of alcohol for consumption.

If cooking with alcohol were regulated, any local deli/food shop serving penne ala vodka would come under the scrutiny of law enforcement.

As far as any allergies to alcohol, I'd assume that the allergic individual would have to be careful about eating food in any restaurant, or in general when that individual wasn't doing the cooking. This is no different than it would be for someone with a peanut allergy or other food related allergy.

[adegiulio]

I quit drinking in 1979, but still eat coq au vin and the like.  Going to parties & bars & dining out with friends who drink doesn't bother me a whit.  Sometimes I come in handy since no one needs to decide who the designated driver will be when I'm around. 

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Don't worry Ghostrider, we'll get you loaded tonight. I'm bringing my 4-beer funnel and a case of Piels

[ghostrider]

I quit drinking in 1979, but still eat coq au vin and the like.  Going to parties & bars & dining out with friends who drink doesn't bother me a whit.  Sometimes I come in handy since no one needs to decide who the designated driver will be when I'm around.  

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Don't worry Ghostrider, we'll get you loaded tonight. I'm bringing my 4-beer funnel and a case of Piels

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Make that a case of Newcastle Brown and I'll be SERIOUSLY tempted!