Inside the Alinea Food Lab

[ronnie_suburban]

It’s the first day of cooking in Alinea's Food Lab and the mood is relaxed. We’re in a residential kitchen but there’s nothing ordinary about it. Chef Grant, along with sous chefs John Peters and Curtis Duffy are setting up. The sight of the 3 steady pros, each in their chef’s whites, working away, does not match this domestic space. Nor does the intimidating display of industrial tools lined up on the counters. While the traditional elements are here in this suburban kitchen: oven, cooktop, sink, so too are the tools of modern restaurant cookery: pacojet, cryovac machine, paint stripping heat gun…wait, a paint stripping heat gun?

In the physical realm, the Food Lab is a tangible space where the conventional and the unconventional are melded together in the quest for new culinary territory. With Alinea’s construction under way, the team must be resourceful. This meant that renting a space large enough to house both the office and the kitchen aspects of the food lab was out of the question.

The decision was made to take over a large office space for the research and administrative aspects of Alinea and transform a residential kitchen into the Lab. Achatz and the team would work three days per week at the office researching all aspects of gastronomy and brainstorming new dishes, while managing the project as a whole. The remaining time would be spent in the kitchen executing the ideas formulated at the office. “At first I thought separating the two would be problematic,” says Grant “but in the end we are finding it very productive. It allows us to really focus on the tasks at hand, and also immerse ourselves in the environment conducive to each discipline.” The menus for opening night—containing as many as 50 never-before-served dishes--must be conceived, designed, tested and perfected. The Alinea team does not want to fly without a net on opening night.

On a more abstract level, the Food Lab is simply the series of processes that continually loop in the minds of Chef Grant and his team. While there is no single conduit by which prospective menus--and the dishes which comprise them--arrive at Alinea, virtually all of them start in Chef Grant's imagination and eventually take form after brainstorming sessions between the Chef and his team. Menus are charted, based on the seasonality of their respective components, and the details of each dish are then laid out on paper, computer or both and brought to the kitchen for development. In this regard, the Food Lab provides something very special to the Chef and his team. “We consider the food lab a luxury,” says Grant. Once Alinea is open and the restaurant’s daily operations are consuming up to 16 hours of each day, time for such creative planning (aka play) will be scarce. Building a library of concepts, ideas and plans for future menus now will be extraordinarily valuable in the future. Otherwise, such planning sessions will have to take place in the 17th and 18th hours of future workdays, as they did when the Chef and his team were at Trio.

Today, several projects are planned and the Chefs dig into their preparations as soon as their equipment setup is complete…

Poached Broccoli Stem with wild Coho roe, crispy bread, grapefruit

Stem cooked sous vide (butter, salt, granulated cane juice)

Machine-sliced thin bread

Dairyless grapefruit “pudding”

Dried Crème Brulee

Caramel orb shell made with bubble maker and heat gun

Powdered interior made with dried butterfat, egg yolks, powdered sugar & vanilla

PB&J

Peeled grapes on the stem

Peanut butter coating

Wrap in brioche

Broil

Micro-grated, roasted peanuts

Instant Tropical Pudding

Freeze Dried Powders of coconut, pineapple, banana

Young coconut water spiked with rum

Muscovado Sugar

Cilantro

Candied Chili

Jamaican Peppercorn

Vanilla Bean

The steps required to comprise each dish are, as one might imagine, intricate and numerous. For the Poached Broccoli Stem, Chef Grant begins by separating the broccoli stems from the florets. The stems are stripped of their fibrous exteriors and pared down until they are uniform in size. Grant comments on the use of the second hand part of the vegetable: “This dish started with the roe. Every year we receive the most amazing Brook Trout Roe from Steve Stallard, my friend and owner of Blis. Typically, we serve the eggs with an element of sweetness. I find it goes very well with the ultra fresh salinity of the week-old roe. This time around we wanted to take a savory approach so I began looking into complimenting flavors in the vegetal category. About the same time, our group had a discussion about secondary parts of vegetables and the stem of broccoli came up. I had a past experience with the stem and found it to be very reminiscent of cabbage. Knowing that cabbage and caviar are essentially a classic pairing, I felt confident that we could work the dish out. Now I'm struggling to decide if this is a broccoli dish or in fact a roe dish, I think they really battle for the top position and that helps makes the dish very complex."

Chef Grant processing the broccoli

The stems are placed in a polyethylene bag, along with butter, salt and granulated cane juice. The bag is sealed with a cryovac machine

The sealed stems are placed in a 170 degree F water to cook, sous vide, until extremely tender; about three hours

Broccoli stems after cooking

The crisp bread element is fabricated via the use of an industrial deli slicer. Chef Grant then brushes the sectioned pieces of poached broccoli stem with eggwash, affixes them to the thin planks of brioche and places them in a fry pan with butter.

Grant's mise...not your ordinary cutting board

Poached Broccoli Stem and Crisp Bread cooking

Ready for plating

A bright green broccoli puree is made with a vita-prep blender. Here, Chef Grant "mohawks" it onto china given to him by Thomas Keller

Smoked Coho roe has arrived via Fed-Ex, courtesy of Steve Stallard

Chef Grant devises a plating scheme for the Poached Broccoli Stem while Curtis looks on

Chef Grant ponders one potential plating of the dish. He called this incarnation 'predictable' and started over.

Another plating idea. This version is garnished with broccoli petals and ultra-thin slices of connected grapefruit pulp cells. The yellow petals are stand-ins for what will ultimately be broccoli blossoms

Grant is still displeased at the dish's appearance. "The dish tastes as I envisioned it....texturally complex, with the crispness of the bread, the soft elements of the floret puree and stem, and the pop of the eggs. The buttery richness from the bread gives the stem the flavor of the melted cabbage I loved at the [French] Laundry. And the hot and cold contrasts from the roe and broccoli …I like it…..I just don’t like the way it looks.” Another attempt and the group agrees, it is better but not “the one.” The use of the thinly sliced cross sections of peeled grapefruit energizes the group. In the next rendition, they make small packets with the ultra thinly-sliced grapefruit containing the roe...

A third plating configuration for Poached Broccoli Stems; this one featuring the packets of roe wrapped in ultra thin sheets of grapefruit pulp cells

At this point the team decides to move on and come back to it next week. After some conversation they decide that in the final dish, broccoli will appear in at least 5 forms: poached stems, floret puree, some raw form of the stem, the tiny individual sprouts of broccoli florets, and the blooms. Grant feels that Poached Broccoli Stem could be ready for service, although he still envisions some changes for the dish that will make it even more emblematic of his personal style. “Our dishes continue to evolve after they hit the menu. It is important for us to get to know them better before we can clearly see their weaknesses.”

The thought for the dried crème brulee originated over a year ago when a regular customer jokingly asked for a crème brulee for dessert. “He said it as joke, I took it as a challenge,” says Grant. "Of course, we never intended to give him a regular crème brulee.” The team tried various techniques to create the powder-filled caramel bubble while at Trio to no avail. An acceptable filling for the Dried Crème Brulee has been developed by the Chef and his team but several different methods, attempted today, to create the orb from caramelized sugar have been less than 100% successful.

Caramel blob awaiting formation. Chef Curtis kept this pliable by leaving it in a low oven throughout the day

Chef Grant’s initial idea to use a metal bubble ring and heat gun (normally used for stripping paint) to form the bubbles does not work as hoped. Attempts to fashion them by hand also come up short.

Says Grant, “At Trio we tried a hair-dryer. When Martin told me about these heat guns which get up to 900 degrees F, I thought we had it for sure. If it was easy everyone would do it I guess.” Eventually, Alinea partner Nick Kokonas garners the task’s best result by positioning a small, warm blob of sugar onto the end of a drinking straw and blowing into the other end. The results are promising. Curtis suggests using a sugar pump to inflate the orbs. That adjustment will be attempted on another day.

“We intentionally position whimsical bite in the amuse slot, it tends to break the ice and make people laugh. It is a deliberate attempt to craft the experience by positioning the courses in a very pre-meditated order. A great deal of thought goes into the order of the courses, a misalignment may really take away from the meal as a whole.” For PB&J, the grapes are peeled while still on the vine and then dipped into unsweetened peanut butter. They are allowed to set–up, and then they are wrapped with a thin sheet of bread and lightly toasted. When the peeled grapes warm, they become so soft they mimic jelly. The composition is strangely unfamiliar in appearance but instantly reminiscent on the palate. PB&J is, according to Grant, virtually ready for service. There are a couple of aesthetic elements, which need minor tweaks but the Chef feels very good about today’s prototype.

Chef John peels grapes while still on their stems

Peeled grapes on their stems with peanut butter coating

Chef Grant studies the completed PB&J in the Crucial Detail designed piece

PB&J

Often, creative impulses come by way of Alinea’s special purveyors. “Terra Spice’s support over the past couple of years has been unprecedented, and it has accelerated with the start of the food lab,” says Grant. “It is great to have relationships with people that think like we do, it can make the creative process so much easier. Often Phil, our contact at Terra, would come into the kitchen at Trio and encourage us to try and stump him on obscure ingredients. We always lost, but not from lack of trying. He even brought in two live chufa plants into the kitchen one day.” The relationship has developed and Terra team has really made an effort to not only search out products that the chefs ask for but also keep an eye out for new ingredients and innovations. In August, Phil brought by some samples of products that he thought the Alinea team might be interested in trying.

Phil of Terra Spice showing the team some samples

Coconut powder and other samples

Grant recalls “the most surprising item to me was the dried coconut powder. When I put a spoonful in my mouth I could not believe the intense flavor and instant creamy texture, it was awesome.” That was the inspiration for what is now Instant Tropical Pudding. The guest is presented with a glass filled with dried ingredients. A member of the service team pours a measured amount of coconut water into the glass and instructs the guest to stir the pudding until a creamy consistency is formed.

The rum-spiked coconut water being added to the powders

At the end of the day, the Chefs assess their overall effort as having gone “fairly well.” It’s a mixed bag of results. Clearly, the fact that things have not gone perfectly on Day 1 has not dampened anyone’s spirits. The team has purposely attempted dishes of varying degrees of difficultly in order to maximize their productivity. Says Grant, “Making a bubble of caramel filled with powder…I have devoted the better part of fifteen years to this craft, I have trained with the best chefs alive. I have a good grasp of known technique. The lab's purpose is to create technique based on our vision. Sometimes we will succeed, and sometimes we will fail, but trying is what make us who we are." The team's measured evaluations of their day’s work reflect that philosophy.

According to Chef Grant, “The purpose of the lab is to create the un-creatable. I know the level at which we can cook. I know the level of technique we already possess. What I am interested in is what we don't know...making a daydream reality.” With little more than 100 days on the calendar between now and Alinea’s opening, the Chef and his team will have their work cut out for them.

=R=

A special thanks to eGullet member yellow truffle, who contributed greatly to this piece

[Chris Cognac]

Whatss the story on the PB and J thing, it looked interesting.

[ronnie_suburban]

Whatss the story on the PB and J thing, it looked interesting.

←

I can tell you that it was absolutely delicious

chefg,

What was the inspiration for your version of PB&J?

=R=

[chefg]

Whatss the story on the PB and J thing, it looked interesting.

←

As I said up-post that amuse slot is an important one. The guests first bite should, in my opinion, do more than just taste good. For us it becomes a way to disarm the diner. Yes the food is highly manipulated, yes it is aesthetically different that most that you have had, yes it tastes good, but it is also familiar and it is ok if it makes fun of itself. If we can successfully place a dish in front of the guest that is visually unfamiliar yet tastes of one of the most comforting flavors known….. we have successfully set the tone for the rest of the evening.

The dish itself it very simple. The technique of slicing bread very thinly and wrapping it around things comes from el Bulli. The inspiration for this particular dish started with the squid. That is what we call the holder developed by Crucial Detail. I wanted a bite sized course that would be consumed by hand and be positioned upright. I started to review fruits and vegetables that would provide a natural “handle” for the guests to use to consume the course. Once I settled on grapes on the vine the rest was a given. Of course we make the peanut butter ourselves and peel the grapes while they are still on the vine, that takes some dexterity.

[ronnie_suburban]

chefg,

Can you give us an update on the Dried Creme Brulee? Has your crew been able to "push the ball forward," so to speak?

=R=

[docsconz]

Fabulous report about an extremely exciting project.

ChefG, I have a question about the sous vide cooking of the broccoli. It appears in the photo as if you are cooking it in water on top of a range. How do you control the temperature to a constant 170F or do you?

Another question - I do not see the broccoli stems in the final platings. Are they there?

Thank you for the insights.

[ronnie_suburban]

Another question - I do not see the broccoli stems in the final platings. Are they there?

←

I think I can answer this part of the question. The crisp breads are inverted, with the broccoli stems on their undersides, facing the plate.

=R=

[docsconz]

I think I can answer this part of the question.  The crisp breads are inverted, with the broccoli stems on their undersides, facing the plate.

=R=

←

Ok, I can see that in the first two platings, but not in the final plating with the disc shaped bread. That appears to be resting flat on the bottom of the plate, although I suppose it isn't. It is an intriguing dish. Personally, the stems are my favorite part of the broccoli.

[ducphat30]

Doc,

If I am not mistaken, that is a bowl, so the broccoli stem is underneath the bread.

[ronnie_suburban]

Ok, I can see that in the first two platings, but not in the final plating with the disc shaped bread. That appears to be resting flat on the bottom of the plate, although I suppose it isn't. It is an intriguing dish. Personally, the stems are my favorite part of the broccoli.

←

If you look very closely, it appears that the crisp bread disc is not lying completely flat on the plate in the final version shown.

I love the stems too. I often make slaw or soup with them.

=R=

[chefg]

chefg,

Can you give us an update on the Dried Creme Brulee?  Has your crew been able to "push the ball forward," so to speak?

=R=

←

Ron:

We have in fact finalized the technique that we will use to create the bubble of caramel. After tomarrow's session I hope to be able to post some images.

[ronnie_suburban]

We have in fact finalized the technique that we will use to create the bubble of caramel. After tomarrow's session I hope to be able to post some images.

←

Most excellent. I'll look forward to seeing them.

=R=

[Bicycle Lee]

uhhh...so WHEN are you going to start taking resumes?

With every post I become more anxious.

[ronnie_suburban]

uhhh...so WHEN are you going to start taking resumes?

With every post I become more anxious.

←

LOL...again with the resume questions?!

Please check Alinea's web site for employment information.

Thanks

=R=

[Bicycle Lee]

eh, there's still only the intro page there.

I figure that I might as well keep popping my face out into the open.

I know it is a bit like when I applied to Harvard, but then again, I won't know what I am capable of if I rely solely on speculation.

Even a stage position would be like my Golden Ticket, but an actual paid position, now that would be incredible.

This Food Lab thread really gets my neurons firing....

I will venture so far as to say that I believe Alinea will be one of the most important restaurants in America for years to come.

[ronnie_suburban]

eh, there's still only the intro page there.

I figure that I might as well keep popping my face out into the open.

I know it is a bit like when I applied to Harvard, but then again, I won't know what I am capable of if I rely solely on speculation.

Even a stage position would be like my Golden Ticket, but an actual paid position, now that would be incredible.

This Food Lab thread really gets my neurons firing....

I will venture so far as to say that I believe Alinea will be one of the most important restaurants in America for years to come.

←

I appreciate your enthusiasm and perseverance. There is an email link that appears at the bottom (right corner) of the intro page at the Alinea site. From what I can tell, it appears to be functional.

Now....back to the food!

=R=

[agbaber]

This is, by far, the coolest thing I have seen yet on eGullet.

And that's saying a lot. (The Bourdain/Ruhlman/Pardus/Ripert battle runs a close second, though.)

I look forward to coming to Alinea now as much as look forward to Masa or even The French Laundy.

I cannot thank you enough for letting us have this look into the process behind your food. It really is quite incredible.

Thank you.

(And Jon Klemt, one of your foodrunners at Trio says hi. He lives in my house at BU now. I nearly flipped out when I learned he worked at Trio with you.)

[Fritz Brenner]

this is amazing, thank you so much for the report.

also very interested to hear about the brulée. what will the dessert feel like in the mouth? aside from its flavor, will the traditional crème aspect of the dish come through?

thanks again.

[nick.kokonas]

uhhh...so WHEN are you going to start taking resumes?

With every post I become more anxious.

←

At the risk of starting a flood, I will say that nothing is stopping you from sending your request for information or resume to info@alinearestaurant.com . A "few" others have already... Every single email gets personal attention.

Officially, the next phase of our website will likely go live in December. It is likely then that Chef Achatz will begin sorting through all of the employment requests.

[nick.kokonas]

ChefG, I have a question about the sous vide cooking of the broccoli. It appears in the photo as if  you are cooking it in water on top of a range. How do you control the temperature to a constant 170F or do you?

Another question - I do not see the broccoli stems in the final platings. Are they there?

←

Chef G and the team are giving a cooking demostration this evening at the Chopping Block in Chicago....

There is an electronic thermometer probe that you can see sticking out of the right hand side of the pot. The temperature is monitored and a slow steady flame keeps it very constant. With a large pot of water, this is easy to achieve.

In each of the platings, including the final one which is a bowl, the broccoli stems are under the brioche.

... and don't worry Chef G and eGulleters, that is the first, last, and only food question I will answer!

Edited October 19, 2004 by nick.kokonas (log)

[woodburner]

chefg.

The most amazing media, I have ever seen, in any form.

If one could parallel your artistry, it would be to Paul McCartney writing " Hey Jude" for Juilan Lennon.

Magnificent.

woodburner

[docsconz]

Chef G and the team are giving a cooking demostration this evening at the Chopping Block in Chicago....

There is an electronic thermometer probe that you can see sticking out of the right hand side of the pot.  The temperature is monitored and a slow steady flame keeps it very constant.  With a large pot of water, this is easy to achieve.

In each of the platings, including the final one which is a bowl, the broccoli stems are under the brioche.

... and don't worry Chef G and eGulleters, that is the first, last, and only food question I will answer!

←

Thanks!

[petite tête de chou]

A fascinating process to witness.

[Gul_Dekar]

I have to say this is probably the most exciting section of eGullet at the moment! Reading about all the developments for Alinea has made me feel vicariously exhilarated about it.

ChefG: All the best and hope to see how the dried creme brulee turns out!

[chefg]

At this point we have been is the test kitchen for about 7 weeks. It took some time to get acclimated to the mechanics of a kitchen after a four-week absence, but now it seems the team has hit a groove. We are adjusting to our surroundings and getting used to the schedule that we have held over the last two months…now things seem to be developing as we envisioned.

One aspect of this process that I have found most interesting is the relationship between the actual foodstuffs and creation of concepts. In the past, while working 16 hours a day, I always wished for more quiet time to “brainstorm”. I felt that if I slightly removed myself from the maintenance of daily production it would enable me to conceptualize dishes more efficiently, freeing up more time to ponder technique, and craft the overall experience that would become Alinea. Recently, I have had the time, and that is not true. Hours spent in front of a computer, in cookbooks, and with my eyes closed result in fewer ideas than when I touch the food. I will have a preconceived idea of a dish’s direction, or of the aesthetic, and it will change before my eyes when I touch the ingredients. At this point I will walk you through some of the dishes we have been working on.

Ron captured the early struggles of the caramel bubble. As I mentioned this concept has been in the back of my mind for a long time, only recently have we devoted a great deal of time to the development.

Most of the time when a new idea takes its position on the docket we think backwards first. In other words reaching back to previous technique or concept often helps us solve issues at the moment. For some reason, in this case, we neglected this approach and stubbornly pushed forward with reckless abandoned. The blinders we placed on ourselves cost us a couple of weeks time and much frustration. As shown here

An early attempt to blow the bubble with a sugar pump

We were determined to “blow” a bubble of caramel, in the literal sense. This thought obviously stemmed from the basic concept of a bubble, as we knew it, the introduction of forced air into an elastic medium. Our determination became a limiting factor, when in fact we knew the technique that would solve the problem all along. It took Nick's wife, Dagmara, who was quietly watching us struggle, to bring the solution to life.

Inflated balloons waiting to be dipped in sugar

We had used balloons to help us mold food into spherical shapes before. In the past we used them in the inverse, filling the balloons with the liquid foodstuff and popping the balloon to achieve the shape we desired. In this case the balloon had to become an exterior mold, the balloon dipped into the hot sugar and then deflated to produce the brittle shell. After several popped balloons and some burned fingers we finalize the technique and the result is shown here.

The finshed caramel bubble

As I stated we were determined to produce a dried crème brulee. After the burnt sugar sphere was created the rest seemed easy. A mixture of spray dried cream, egg yolk, and powdered sugar scented with vanilla was mixed and added to the orb. A bottom layer of sugar was added and the result was a globe of caramel with a powdered “custard” interior.

A Dried Creme Brulee Cracked Open

In true ironic innovative fashion we looked at the November issue of Food and Wine today and read about Jose Andres producing a “caramel lightbulb”…after some disbelief and a few four letter words we came to the conclusion that we ran out of time for this concept. In todays fast paced world you need to get your ideas to the table very quickly, every pun imaginable intended.

I love coconut. We only deal with it fresh of course, and it becomes one of the “bottom of totem pole” tasks in the kitchen, that is, to shuck, peel and juice the flesh. The end result is far superior than any processed product you can buy, not to mention the sense of accomplishment that comes with fabricating a dozen or more, with the knowledge that the will be consumed that night.

For this dish: Stone Crab young coconut, cashew, parsnip we decided to utilize modern technology to help us achieve the desired effect. Parsnips have an amazing aromatic quality when raw, but seem to be very toothsome at that stage. After we settled on the flavors of cashews and coconut to solidify this crab dish we were determined to produce a veletely eretheral puree made from those ingredients. The first couple of attempts fell short, the puree coming out very grainy. But after marinating the raw cashews, young coconut, and parsnips overnight in a solution of coconut water and salt we discovered the mixture cold be manipulated into a smooth puree in the vita-prep blender with ease. At that point we froze the puree and processed it in the paco jet, the result was a mousse like consistency of ultra-smooth texture. This base became the sockel for the resulting crab dish.

Plating of the crab dish

In an attempt to build on the aromatic quality of the dish we looked to volatile spices to accent the crisp raw flavors of the puree. Mace and saffron seemed a natural match. The result was vinaigrette made from the two spices; it would be tossed over the crab and applied to the plate. The last element was the herbacious kilimanjari basil which you see in leaf and bloom form.

Stone Crab young coconut, cahsews, parsnips (front view)

Stone Crab young cocnut, cahsews, parsnips (side view)

Procuitto-Passionfruit-Catmint

This dish was initialized from the dehydration of cured meats. Their intensely salty and crispy characteristics were appealing to us, especially since the use of a dehydrator produced a result that did not taste “cooked”.

discs of procuitto in dehydrator

It seems to be the closest version of a crispy “raw” flavor that we can accomplish. I considered using pancetta in this manner, mainly for its rolled properties, but found the flavors of procuitto to be more appealing. Trying to mimic the spiral asthetic of pancetta we rolled the thinly sliced procuitto and froze it into a log. It was then sliced into thin rounds and dehydrated into crispy, half dollar sized chips of cured meat.

A chip of crispy procuitto held up after being removed from dehydrator

Of course everyone would think of melon at this point. But the reason melon works so well with procuitto is what interested me. Knowing we could replace it with anything that fit the profile, we chose passionfruit for a few reasons.

Sous Chef Curtis Duffy with passionfruit bavarios laid out in a sheet pan before punching

Obviously the fruitiness, but also the intense aroma and acidity. The pulp and shell were made into a broth that was then turned into a bavarios. This was punched into a disc slightly smaller than the ham and sandwiched between. Mint seemed to be another natural element to this dish. We chose catmint that was growing in Nick’s garden. It is very powerful and tends to push into nose more them most mints. I think it is nice contrast to the lingering meaty notes of the ham.

Finished dish:Procuitto-Passionfruit-Catmint

We view responsible manipulation as a good thing. If we can maintain integral qualities of an ingredient but present it in a different form, be it an alteration of texture or physical state, that is appealing to us. This is an example of that philosophy. Here we have flavored a “cracker base” with a duxelle of wild mushrooms and various mushroom powders. The apperiel is mixed, steamed, dehydrated, and then fried to achieve its final form. The result is a very crunchy, intensely flavored mushroom cheetos if you will. We simply micro-plane fresh matsutakes mushrooms over the cracker and arrange various herbs throughout.

Puffed Wild Mushroom

The dishes as you see them here will undoubtedly evolve of the next couple of weeks. I am sure by tomorrow morning we will all have fresh ideas regarding them, and as more days in the kitchen unfold the dishes will mature. After all, that is one of the main reasons we decided to devote the energies to this process, to open Alinea with dishes that have gone through the same evolutionary process as a restaurant that as been open for a period of time.

I am finding it difficult to articulate the physical process behind a lot of these concepts. I can comment on the inspiration, and the technical aspects, but the fact that they are so close to me prevents me from describing them objectively. Maybe Nick can give us an "outsiders" opinion.