Urban Vs. Suburban Restaurant Food

[chefdavidrusso]

I'm working on a project doing some menu development where the target market is a hip, urban, probably single, crowd between their late 20's and late 30's. The person with whom I am working stressed the importance of catching that hip urban feel with the food, and "not being too suburban" (her words).

This got me thinking...now days, is there really a difference between urban and suburban dining? Do those in the cities eat differently from those in the 'burbs, either at home or when dining out - especially with the proliferation of local farmer's markets, the availability of quality artisan products, and a generally more food-conscious consumer?

What do you all think?

[Carrot Top]

Mmm...yes, I see a difference. But of course there are exceptions to every rule. One might find a suburb somewhere that exhibited more 'city-like' aspects than certain cities, somewhere.

If I were you, I would attempt to more clearly define what this person (I am assuming they are your client or potential client) means when they say 'hip urban feel' and 'suburban'. Ask for specific examples of urban areas they particularly like and suburban areas that they think do not have the aspects they are interested in, then study these areas to get a better feel for what the ultimate goal is.

You might want to go so far as to ask which actual existing restaurants hold the qualities they are seeking...but if you open this door, be ready to be besieged with a list that you will learn a great deal from, but which ultimately you may be asked to almost-copycat from. A fine line to cross or not, here...

[SG-]

Think people who shop at JC Penny, Gap, and consider cutting edge haute couture fashion to be had at Banana Republic, Jcrew and you get the idea.

They generally want something marketed as being hip, dangerous, urban but with always with a safety net.

Thought about it somemore and what comes to mind as possibly appealing to them is hawaiian fusion food like the one's served at the Roy's chain. A lot of "exotic" asian themes in the cuisine coupled with more traditional core ingredients (beef, fish etc). Not as edgy as say Alan Wong, but rather leaning more towards comfort food tastes. Am I making any sense??

Edited August 24, 2004 by SG- (log)

[Thesorus]

suburban food for me sounds more like confort food; upscale home cooked meals, with a twist, while urban food will be more refined ( mostly in the cooking process, presentation and ingredients ).

good suburban food should not ( IMHO ) try to reinvent the wheel, and go te fusion way, and try to accomplish what the client does not really want. That does make make less appealing, or of lesser quality, or that the ingredients are not perfect; it simply is different.

[jackal10]

Isn't this part of a much older dichotomy between "court food" - sophisticated dishes orginally served at royal courts or other high-status occaisions, and hence by people aspiring to them, and "peasant food", home cooking often based on local produce, and making the most of available cheap (but usually fresh) ingredients.

Thus elbaorately plated dishes, designed to appeal to jaded appetities are urban and edgy, while down-home food, such as BBQ, or fish and chips, or even a plain boiled egg, are suburban...

[chefdavidrusso]

First of all...Carrot Top...excellent suggestion. Thank you. Secondly, after having given this some more thought, and having read your comments, here's where I'm at so far....

I don't think it's just a question of more refined or elaborate presentation...there are certainly plenty of great urban restaurants that are more rustic in their presentations, with the food left more in it's natural state.

And I'm not sure that it's all about reinventing the wheel all the time. It is my personal opinion that restaurants that are always trying to rethink the way we eat or experience food can sometimes over-intelectualize the dining experience. To quote Mario Batali, are you making a statement or are you making diner? I myself prefer diner.

Is it just a question of removing the safety net? I don't know. Urban diners don't want to walk the edge ALL the time. I'm thinking that it's using a mix of mundane and exotic ingredients, and bringing them together in unusual ways that still make sense, and still respect the ingredients cultural heretige.

Just because I'm curious, are those of you who have posted Urban or Suburban folk? I myself have been both urban (NYC, Chicago) and suburban (the corresponding 'burbs of each city).

[GoodEater]

I am sorry to say that I think there is an inherent snobbiness coming from this idea that the city is so much more sophisticated than the suburbs. I have had both excellent and shitty meals in NYC and the same is true in Northern NJ. It depends on the individual chef to make the meal great. Arrogance and attitude can really get in the way of just creating great meals and a wonderful dining experience. In addition, many of the people in the city restaurants really live in the suburbs and are just visiting for the day.

[tryska]

i think it depends on where you live and the urban sprawl of your respective city.

Atlanta for instance - most of the really unique single owner establishments are inside the perimeter of the city. there's quite a few outside the perimeter as well, but for the most part are overshadowed by the chain restos - olive gardens and ruby teusday's and applebees and outbacks.

a nickname i learned elsewhere for the suburbs is "Bloomin' Onion Acres". I find it hilarious and appropos.

[Milt]

I hadn't thought about it previously, but there is definitely a difference between urban and suburban dining. Here in the Atlanta area, Richard Blais has correctly chosen to stay in the urban area with his concepts. It is also more central (accessible) to the entire metropolitan area.

Cutting edge suburban food would be, in my view, pot roast using bison rather than beef - as an example. Familiar food without being frightening to the typical suburban diner.

[chefdavidrusso]

I am sorry to say that I think there is an inherent snobbiness coming from this idea that the city is so much more sophisticated than the suburbs.  I have had both excellent and shitty meals in NYC and the same is true in Northern NJ.  It depends on the individual chef to make the meal great.  Arrogance and attitude can really get in the way of just creating great meals and a wonderful dining experience.

I don't disagree with that at all. In fact one of my top 3 favorite restaurants is in the suburbs....of Gary, Indiana!!! (and when I say that, it's setting aside the once-in-a-lifetime places that I've eaten) However, it has been my experience that those restaurants in the suburbs that are great tend to bring with them an approach to food that one might generally call "urban". Rarely does that work in the opposite direction.

Edited August 24, 2004 by chefdavidrusso (log)

[GoodEater]

I am sorry to say that I think there is an inherent snobbiness coming from this idea that the city is so much more sophisticated than the suburbs.  I have had both excellent and shitty meals in NYC and the same is true in Northern NJ.  It depends on the individual chef to make the meal great.  Arrogance and attitude can really get in the way of just creating great meals and a wonderful dining experience.

I don't disagree with that at all. In fact one of my top 3 favorite restaurants is in the suburbs....of Gary, Indiana!!! (and when I say that, it's setting aside the once-in-a-lifetime places that I've eaten) However, it has been my experience that those restaurants in the suburbs that are great tend to bring with them an approach to food that one might generally call "urban". Rarely does that work in the opposite direction.

I see what you are saying. It's just that the attitude of certain (but not all) New Yorkers can be overwhelming and disturbing to those of us who grew up and live in Northern NJ. Sorry to be so New York-centric. I guess the attitude has spilled over from NY on to me. Things are probably very different outside of other cities!

[jackal10]

Not sure that the hip clientele is in the the city centre anymore with the demographic shift.

It used to be the centre of cities has high affluent population and good transport, so supported a rich infrastructure.

Nowdays they are mainly offices, but dead and lonely at night; in some places aare dangerous even, except in a few entertainment districts.There are brief periods where previously poor districts are rejuvenated with lofts etc for urban living, but these tend not to last.

The wealth is in the suburbs or even in country areas with good transport, and that is where you are likely to find the cutting edge restaurants, for example in converted country houses.

[Hest88]

I was thinking about this in terms of a newish seafood place and raw bar that opened up a few months ago in our area. This is an area chock full of hip, small plate restaurants and widely acclaimed restaurants in a homey enclave of a largish city, so it's hardly suburban. Yet, when I walked into the restaurant I immediately remarked to my husband that it had a distinctly San Francisco feel that none of the other restaurants in the area had. The food is a bit more inventive than other restaurants, but not so much. Really what made it seem so completely urban was the decor. Hard, shiny edges, glass, stainless steel, angles, cool colors. No warmth, no wood, no creamy lighting. The food adds to that feel but I wouldn't say the food is really all that different from many other restaurants. It's the presentation---arty and inventive plating---that makes the difference.

So, if it were me, I'd be less worried about the food (though small plates and offbeat spicing might help) and focus more on getting cool china and creating interesting presentations.

[Carrot Top]

You had asked what areas we all live in...I've lived in big and small cities, big and small suburbs, and totally rural areas.

This is a fun thread to read. To go to the side of the topic again (sorry)...it is likely you are already doing what I'm about to mention...but in this process of menu development be sure to document everything.

It can be a simple re-stating of what you believe your client's directions were...but it is useful.

Not only for billing purposes but also...if there is a partnership involved in making menu decisions there can be unspoken or unrealized differences in goals or ideas. If the direction given by the 'point person' is clariifed on paper, any differences can be noted and hopefully sorted out.

Edited due to earlier exhaustion...tomorrow is first day of school for kids here!

Edited August 24, 2004 by Carrot Top (log)

[Katherine]

What I think is that you need to get that word "hip" defined for you. There are lots of hip urban places where the hipness is provided by a trendy crowd which doesn't care that the food sucks.

[CompassRose]

One other thing about urban and suburban, which I think is common no matter how you slice "hipness" -- in the urb, you are much less likely to be catering to families. I see it time and time again; even those who love their renovated townhouse or funky loft in the heart of the city will leave, sooner or later, once the first offspring come along, if they have the resources.

It still isn't practical or pleasant to raise children in the city. Schools are worse, there are safety issues, yada yada.

Which I think may be the root cause of what a lot of you are pointing out as the difference in menu. If you're likely to be feeding families with kids, you've got to provide the "safe" stuff for children who refuse to try anything new or weird or funny-coloured.

[jgarner53]

children who refuse to try anything new or weird or funny-coloured.

Yeah! No "urban/hip" green bits on that pasta with butter!

Edited August 24, 2004 by jgarner53 (log)

[hshiau]

One other thing about urban and suburban, which I think is common no matter how you slice "hipness" -- in the urb, you are much less likely to be catering to families. I see it time and time again; even those who love their renovated townhouse or funky loft in the heart of the city will leave, sooner or later, once the first offspring come along, if they have the resources.

It still isn't practical or pleasant to raise children in the city. Schools are worse, there are safety issues, yada yada.

Which I think may be the root cause of what a lot of you are pointing out as the difference in menu. If you're likely to be feeding families with kids, you've got to provide the "safe" stuff for children who refuse to try anything new or weird or funny-coloured.

I hate to go off-topic here but I'm raising a family in the city. I find it very pleasant to live here and our school (private) is excellent. I've got a large park (Central Park) a block from me, Lincoln Center a block from me, and endless museums. I must say that, with kids, I'd rather stay in the city....if I have the resources.

As for safe foods..yes my daughter prefers pasta to anything else, but I don't believe in letting her dictate all her food choices. She needs to try new things. If we let her have her way when she was younger, she'd be eating nothing but plain pasta with butter, hotdogs, chicken nuggets and french fries every day.

[jbonne]

This got me thinking...now days, is there really a difference between urban and suburban dining?

yep, no question about it.

though there's plenty of mediocre urban food, at its best urban food is not only fresh, trendy and focused on the new and unusual, it also encompasses legitimate ethnic cuisines -- the Chinese food in Chinatown, the taqueria, &c.

suburban food? well ... Cheesecake Factory. big portions of either uninspired fare or food that has a soupcon of ethnic flavoring without in any way being authentic.

"CHINO-LATINO STEAK. A Fusion of Asian and Latin Flavors! Spicy Marinated Charbroiled Skirt Steak with a Thai Tamarind Sauce. Served with Grilled Red Onion, Tomato and Steamed White Rice."

"THAI CHICKEN PASTA. Linguini Tossed with Sauteed Chicken, Julienne Carrots,

Green Onion, Roasted Peanuts and a Spicy Hot Peanut Sauce. Topped with Fresh Bean Sprouts."

(taken from: http://www.thecheesecakefactory.com/menu.htm )

not to pick on the CF, but it's emblematic of the suburban dining mentality. the irony being that so many of their locations are in high-traffic downtown venues, specifically to cater to suburban visitors who want a comforting brand restaurant while visiting the big city.

and let's not even talk about Chili's.

all that said, there are some terrific restaurants in the 'burbs and the country. but they're catering to an urban crowd gone pastoral. maybe it's all a state of mind.

[Susan G]

I was raised in the NYC suburbs of Westchester County.........I associate suburban kitchens with fatigue.

Both parents commuted five times a week to work, taking three to four hours a day on top of their nine hour workday. By the time they got home, all they wanted was something reliable, fast, and reasonably nutritious for dinner. I think comfort food played a big part here..........

Not to put too fine a point on it, but my classmates were pretty homogenous: Although many of them were third-generation Americans, we were overwhelmingly White.

I think the difference between city and suburb would be the accessibility of different cuisine staples, and the willingness to try new/ fusion foods.

[chefette]

Well, saying that you are shooting for a "hip" "Young" "urban" client you probably have to take many things into account:

people in the 21-32 range like fun hip places where they can potentially meet fun hip people - usually involves opportunities to drink and be surrounded by tunes - so you need a good drink menu and fun bar food - lots of apps

from my NYC friends and experience people are looking for a variety of styles and foods - from a country/homey style (which they probably see more as "retro") to things that are exciting and a bit strange - but as pointed out earlier - not so strange that they would not like them.

Seems that among the young hip crowd there is potentially a real need for keeping price within a stylish range - cheap enough to bring people often but not so cheap as to be overlooked

seems that having an ecclectic mix of things from vegetarian to sushi, latin, to euro and burgers is important as well but without starting to look like the cheesecake factory.

You might consider several dishes that are easily shareable as apps or sides

Things that need to be eaten with the hands or wraps (I think that the lettuce wrap at PF Changs has gotten way more raves than it deserves almost enturely because of the sauce mixing by the waiter and the fact that you wrap up the filling in the lettuce cups. Seems to me that people sort of get a kick out of the "learning" or instructional care of their waiters.

[Squeat Mungry]

I was thinking about this in terms of a newish seafood place and raw bar that opened up a few months ago in our area. This is an area chock full of hip, small plate restaurants and widely acclaimed restaurants in a homey enclave of a largish city, so it's hardly suburban. Yet, when I walked into the restaurant I immediately remarked to my husband that it had a distinctly San Francisco feel that none of the other restaurants in the area had. The food is a bit more inventive than other restaurants, but not so much. Really what made it seem so completely urban was the decor. Hard, shiny edges, glass, stainless steel, angles, cool colors. No warmth, no wood, no creamy lighting. The food adds to that feel

Hest88, can I ask which place this is?

I was just thinking about this. I think Northern California may be a bit different than other areas. I mean there are terrific restaurants here in town, but the French Laundry is in Yountville, Chez Panisse is in Berkeley, and even Marin has a history of one or two restaurants that make for destination dining for City-ites. I'm thinking of places like the Lark Creek Inn (years ago), and more recently Roxanne's and (remains to be seen) Antidote.

The only area around that has no name restaurants I can think of that people would actually drive to from the City to eat at is the Peninsula, but that also seems more like a "typical" suburban area to me. Even there, though, there are exceptions like Koi Palace in Daly City.

I can't even imagine trying to sort out urb and suburb in Southern California!

Cheers,

Squeat

Edit to spell my own state's name correctly. Sheesh.

Edited August 24, 2004 by Squeat Mungry (log)

[Hest88]

Squeat, it's Pearl Oyster Bar (or whatever it's real name is) across from the Rockridge BART station. It just got a great Chronicle review, but the two times we were there (once the week it opened and once a few weeks ago) left us rather underwhelmed. It's bustling and busy all the time though, and really has quite a vibe to it.

[Squeat Mungry]

Squeat, it's Pearl Oyster Bar (or whatever it's real name is) across from the Rockridge BART station. It just got a great Chronicle review, but the two times we were there (once the week it opened and once a few weeks ago) left us rather underwhelmed. It's bustling and busy all the time though, and really has quite a vibe to it.

I had a feeling that was it. I haven't been, but yeah Bauer sure seemed to love it. I think it's funny that it's where Red Tractor used to be!

[Tess]

Along the lines of the Cheesecake Factory/PF Chang discussion, Jeffrey Steingarten had an interesting article in Vogue about chain restaurants. I've been in a Bahama Breeze, which he describes as a good example of the new chain phenomenon. They have (as he notes) some fairly convincing imitations of Cuban food, some all-purpose food, basically something for everyone. I find them overpriced and not worth a trip, but I can't say I thought the food was terrible. The appetizers were nice and spicy and good with drinks.

I think that all these comments about suburban preferences have some truth to them but an awful lot of city-dwellers want to eat that way to. It's harder to characterize urban cuisine. Here in Chicago, the suburbs have a lot of ethnic restaurants and sincere little bistros in strip malls, not really that different from places I've eaten in urban environments. Not the amazing variety you get in the city, admittedly.