About roux

[highchef]

You add it to the stock (water, if you must) and let it simmer for 30min. or so. It does not 'thicken' as much as give body. How much is dictated by taste. to 2 quarts of stock I usually put in about 8 heaping tablespoons or more. This is considerably more than the jar calls for, but I cannot stand a long gumbo. The trinity goes in after the roux has been on for a while. This is another change up from the traditional, but does not really affect the end result. Maybe a purist could tell the veggies wern't sauteed in the roux, but to it's credit, I don't get the odd burnt onion bit either.

If you're a novice, or have limited experience with how a real gumbo should be, use the measurements on the jar. I'd hate to be the one that ruined your attempt by encouraging too much roux, but honestly...I usually at least double what they call for. And that's a dark roux. It's a matter of taste I guess.

edit: the usual

Edited January 21, 2009 by highchef (log)

[PopsicleToze]

How do you use pre-made roux in a gumbo?

Do you add it at the end to thicken the "soup"? At the beginning?

Do you have to dilute with water first, as you would with cornstarch? Or do you drop a lump of it into the pot?

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When I use a premade roux for a gumbo, I saute the trinity first in a large cast iron fryer with high sides (not sure what it's called -- we call it a "chicken fryer"). After the trinity is sauteed, I add the roux from the jar to the skillet. It's separated with some oil on top and the flour portion packed pretty tightly in the jar. It comes out in big clumps. I smash out all of the lumps and get everything up to heat again. I whisk in stock to make a thick liquid -- then transfer all to a pot big enough for gumbo -- add the rest of the stock and seasonings and take it from there like you would on any gumbo.

[Florida]

Not to step on highchef's toes, but I would strongly recommend sauteeing, or at least sweating, your trinity first. Then add either your stock or pre-made roux, depending on your preference. Just note, its best to add either a cold stock to a hot roux or a cold roux to a hot stock, but not to add a hot stock to a hot roux.

[HungryC]

When making a home-sized gumbo and premade roux, I do brown the veggies and add the liquid, then the roux. For big pots (20 quarts or more), I boil the veggies in the liquid, then add room temp premade roux. The difference in taste is insignificant, to my palate; but I am also relying on high-quality smoked meats to deliver the browned, savory notes. Browned veggies are more important when you have substandard smoked sausage/tasso/andouille, or if you aren't using bone-in, browned chicken/turkey.

[highchef]

Not to step on highchef's toes, but I would strongly recommend sauteeing, or at least sweating, your trinity first.  Then add either your stock or pre-made roux, depending on your preference. Just note, its best to add either a cold stock to a hot roux or a cold roux to a hot stock, but not to add a hot stock to a hot roux.

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I agree. I don't know anyone who follows the recipe on the roux jar exactly, which reads to throw them in after. I think most of us were taught to add veggies to halt the browning in the roux, then add your stock.

The whole idea of the jarred roux is to eliminate a step in the gumbo making process, not screwing it up. Sweating the trinity first is for sure the richer option.

good weather for gumbo.

[jess mebane]

God Bless John Folse! I have been passing his jambalaya receipt off as family bible stuff for a decade now (One from his old PBS show, not book---too sanitized for practicality). Having said that, I would be utterly at a loss as to how best use a jar rooo. Does it have icky amts of salt?

Sidebar: anyone going by donaldsonville? Got Folse's big book I want signed.

[highchef]

first ingredient listed is flour(s), then oil(soy bean)...pretty much it.

Sorry, haven't been thru Donaldsonville since McNeese played Nichols.

I want the new book, thought I'd get it for my birthday, but I guess I didn't let drop enough hints. But....that's why God made American Express and Amazon.com!! Then again, last cookbook I ordered from his site directly and it came autographed!!! There's a blank on the order-form or something, but what a nice thing for him to do!

[HowardLi]

1) Can a roux be stored for later use without detriment?

2) What action(s) causes a roux to darken?

3) If the answer to 2) is the Maillard reaction, can the darkening of a roux be accelerated by raising the pH or adding reducing sugars?

4) How does the ratio of fat to flour affect the roux?

5) What are the time vs temperature curves for the ~4 colors of roux? e.g. how long must the roux be kept at e.g. 300F in order to achieve a blond, brown, or chocolate roux?

6) What is the effect of varying the protein content of the flour?

Edited October 11, 2012 by HowardLi (log)

[minas6907]

1) Yes, definitely. At an old school French place I was at, the roux was made with duck fat and stored at room temp in a large pot. I never really liked that, but thats how they did it for years prior. When I do roux at home, I will usually wrap it into a log with plastic wrap, then freeze it, and just cut off little coins as needed.

[Keith_W]

From Harold McGee On Food and Cooking, p.617:

"... in addition to coating the flour particles with fat and making them easier to disperse in hot liquid, roux making has three other useful effects on the flour. First, it cooks out the raw cereal flavor and develops a rounded, toasty flavor that becomes more pronounced and intense as the colour darkens. Second, the color itself - the product of the same browning reactions between carbohydrates and proteins that produce the toasty flavour - can lend some depth to the colour of the sauce.

Finally, the heat causes some of the starch chains to split, and then to form new bonds with each other. This generally means that long chains and branches are broken down into smaller pieces that then form short branches on other molecules. The short, branched molecules are less efficient at thickening liquids than the long chains, but they are also slower to bond to each other and form a continuous network as the liquid cools. The sauce is therefore less prone to congeal on the plate. The darker the roux, the more starch chains are modified in this way, and so the more roux is required to create a given thickness."

Thus to answer your questions:

1. Yes.

2. The Maillard reaction

3. Probably, but I haven't tried

4. More fat lessen the thickening power of the roux. More flour might make the roux harder to dissolve.

5. No idea.

6. See McGee's answer.

(edit) I thought I should expand on the protein point a little further. Starches are polysaccharides, as opposed to proteins (which are polypeptides). According to McGee, it is the polysaccharide that provides the thickening power of a roux. I know that some proteins can form gels (e.g. gelatin is simply broken down collagen, i.e. a polypeptide) but I am not sure about the gliadin in flour. You can extract the gluten by forming a dough and then by thorough washing so that all the starch is washed away, leaving you gluten. Maybe you could try an experiment where you see if it can be used to thicken liquids.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Keith_W (log)

[Panaderia Canadiense]

2) At least partly what you're seeing is caramelization of butter solids. I was taught that a blonde roux is made starting with a pale beurre noisette, and that the more one allowed the butter to caramelize, the darker the roux became.

3) Since I have only ever made darker roux based on browned / caramelized butter, and never by browning it after the flour is added, I'd hesitate to implicate the Maillard reaction.... However, it's worth a try! Let us know what you find out.

EDIT - yeah, I should have payed better attention in chemistry. Apparently the Maillard reaction is also responsible for caramelization, so the short answer is yes. Now I'm wondering whether I learned to make a roux incorrectly, but I am very fond of the flavour of the ones made with beurre noisette.....

4) A higher proportion of fat to flour makes a looser roux and contributes to a slacker final sauce; the reverse is a tighter roux and faster and more complete thickening.

6) Not sure, but I have noticed the following: a roux made with gluten-free flour, like quinua or amaranth, will require slightly less flour to form the right consistency, and will thicken a sauce faster than a gluten-containing flour.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Panaderia Canadiense (log)

[KennethT]

I always make my roux with peanut oil, as opposed to butter, and it gets DARK.... No caramelization there....

[HungryC]

Of course you can store it for later use...see the various jarred rouxs (light, medium, dark, and dry) available at my local WalMart. At least six different brands, at last count. What, your large chain stores don't carry roux in a jar? http://bouillie.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/p6100106-1.jpg

[janeer]

There is a recent thread on this somewhere...

[kryptos1]

I have always done Roux on medium to medium/low heat and takes 15-25 minutes depending on the color of course. I have just watched a video with someone who takes 2 hours to make roux on very low heat and does not stir very often....apparently "this is how its done in New Orleans." Are there flavor differences between frequently stirred roux at medium/medium-low temps and a very low temperature made roux? Just guessing but if its a function of time and temperature, does it chemically come out the same in the end?

Thanks! (yea not a fun topic, but its got me curious)

[HungryC]

No flavor differences that I've ever noticed in a lifetime of making roux (and not just as a thickener for gumbos and stews, but for completely roux-centric dishes like roux peas & baby green limas in a roux). I can't think of anyone who takes 2 hours to make a roux, unless they're a complete novice and totally afraid of burning it. Most people I've observed roux-making probably come in around 20-35 minutes, depending on the amount being made & the stove's heat output. I usually get it done (most often a "2 cup roux", ie, 1 cup of oil and 1 cup of flour) in 20 minutes on my crummy Amana gas stove.

Here's a big one, made w/2.5 lbs of flour. Takes about 35-45 minutes over a propane burner, depending on how hard the wind is blowing.

[Dave the Cook]

And then there's Paul Prudhomme's high-temp technique, which can get you a medium roux in 6 to 7 minutes. I've never noticed a difference in any quality of a roux that related to how fast it's made. For me, it's just a matter of how much time I've got, what other prep needs to be done, and how willing I am to pay attention to it.

[pbear]

Bear in mind there's a big difference between the roux for bechamel and the roux for gumbo. As for the latter, I agree with HungryC that half an hour is sufficient if one is making it conventionally, i.e., using medium heat and stirring constantly. Have never heard of or tried a low heat, little-stir approach, but don't see the advantage unless one were doing this often and in large quantities (say, in a restaurant). And, if I were to go that route, I'd probably figure out a way to do it in a slow oven (like oven cooked polenta). As it is, the conventional method works fine for me (occasional small batches), so I'm unlikely to invest in the learning curve of a low heat method.

[HungryC]

Plenty of folks in south LA use the oven method; it seems to be especially popular with ppl making a dry (oil less) roux or those using very little oil. Have also heard from some folks using gluten free flours (rice, various blends) that the oven method seems to produce better result than stovetop, thou I have no direct experience with comparing GF flours and methods.

Plenty of cooks use the microwave. Here's a micro roux methodology: http://www.nomenu.com/joomla1/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1066:microwave-roux&catid=98:building-blocks&Itemid=167

[Mjx]

Plenty of folks in south LA use the oven method; it seems to be especially popular with ppl making a dry (oil less) roux or those using very little oil. Have also heard from some folks using gluten free flours (rice, various blends) that the oven method seems to produce better result than stovetop, thou I have no direct experience with comparing GF flours and methods.

Plenty of cooks use the microwave. Here's a micro roux methodology: http://www.nomenu.co...ocks&Itemid=167

Regarding rice flour: I can only speak for the traditional, stovetop approach, but when I switched to rice flour, I didn't know if or how it would behave differently, so I just carried on as usual, intending to make adjustments as necessary; honestly, the behaviour of wheat and rice flours (I've used everything from whole ground rice to pure rice starch) seems to be roughly identical in this instance, whether I patiently stand over it for half an hour at a lower temperature, or risk creating instant carbon dust/paste because I'm in a hurry.

[Twyst]

I have just watched a video with someone who takes 2 hours to make roux on very low heat and does not stir very often....apparently "this is how its done in New Orleans."

Can't say I know anyone who takes anywhere near that long to cook a roux, and Ive been in plenty of kitchens in new orleans, both pro and home kitchens.

Hungry C has pretty much nailed it as far as what people in south louisiana REALLY do when it comes to making a roux.

For those experienced in making dark roux, the high heat method paul prudhomme/john besh champion really does work, but its kind of scary and you really need to have some experience making a roux before you go that route

Edited February 6, 2013 by Twyst (log)

[kryptos1]

Wow this is very helpful...had no idea the microwave and oven was used. The 2 Cajun/Creole books I have just use the pan on medium heat....sounds like there is a better and easier way. Thanks all!

[Charcuterer]

Mjx, I tried one time to make a roux with rice flour and had the weirdest thing happen. It was a perfect brick red color, I put in my trinity and the roux went black as soon as the veggies hit the pan. I haven't tried again since.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Charcuterer (log)

[Toliver]

There are quite a number of previous eGullet discussions concerning roux. Here's one about roux made in the oven: Roux in the Oven

[Alex]

And then there's Paul Prudhomme's high-temp technique, which can get you a medium roux in 6 to 7 minutes. I've never noticed a difference in any quality of a roux that related to how fast it's made. For me, it's just a matter of how much time I've got, what other prep needs to be done, and how willing I am to pay attention to it.

That's what I've always done for gumbo. Works absolutely fine, so long as I keep whisking and don't try to multi-task.

Edited to add: I just noticed that this was my (2*11)th post on eGullet. Dare I post again and destroy this beautiful number?

Edited February 9, 2013 by Alex (log)