Veal stock

[Nawlins]

This article was recently in Saveur

Veal Demi-Glace

It does call for browning of the bones though

[tim]

Tim, I'm looking at the second extraction details in TFL right now. The first extraction takes 5-6 hours. Keller then recommends another 5-6 hours for the second extraction, and then another 8-9 hours to reduce the combined stocks "to concentrate color and consistency." That would seem to add at least another 13 hours minimum to the process.

Bat,

My point was that the second run adds only a short period of work. Yes, the second run takes 5-6 hours of simmering time.

That 8-9 hour reduction is a part of the process even if you don't make a 2nd run. The reduction is only required if you need or want to reduce.

Of course, TFL is not the only way of doing things. McGee says that 8 hours should be enough to get maximum extraction from veal and beef. Yes, you might squeeze that last little weak bit of gelatin and flavor from the remouillage, but that seems like saving lemons after you squeeze them, so you can boil and extract yet more flavor from them. Actually I think you would get more real flavor out of recycling the lemons than you would out of the remouillage.

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Bat,

Assuming the use of good, fresh veal knuckles, McGee is completely wrong on this point and it is proven every day in many kitchens. Try a 2nd run once and you will be convinced.

Tim

Edited March 10, 2009 by tim (log)

[muichoi]

Interesting. I've quite often found McGee to be 'wrong' when it comes to practice rather than theory.

[Chris Hennes]

McGee says that 8 hours should be enough to get maximum extraction from veal and beef.

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Batard - where are you seeing this? In my copy of the second edition, on pg. 600, section on Double Stocks, he says:

Because a standard kitchen extraction of eight hours releases only about 20% of the gelatin in beef bones, the bones may be extracted for a second time, for a total of up to 24 hours.

[tkassum]

So in the spirit of scientific experimentation, I made a veal stock using Ruhlman's formula as described here. I compared this against some stock that I had left over from the last time I made it Bouchon-style.

This is not a perfect comp - the Bouchon stock was older, and the source of the veal bones was different from one stock to another.

That said, I found that the Ruhlman stock was more "stocky" than the Bouchon stock - it had a bit more flavor and was generally more robust. This makes sense in the context of Keller's stocks being intentionally super-light. I am finding that when using the stocks for quick pan reductions, I have to use a much greater quantity of the Keller stock to get a flavorful reduction vs the Ruhlman stock.

The Keller stock is probably a better bet for a cook who can handle and manipulate flavors with subtlety. For someone ham-fisted like me, the Ruhlman stock works great. Also, I hasten to point out that the Ruhlman instructions are much easier.

One other thing - Veal Stock is really an amazing substance. Using it in casual cooking has really elevated the quality of my meals.

[tim]

Hi,

In my experience, Kellers stocks also tend to be sweet.

I think he includes lots of carrots in chicken stock and excludes celery because of its bitterness.

Tim

[paulraphael]

I think he includes lots of carrots in chicken stock and excludes celery because of its bitterness. 

Tim

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I'd be curious to see of show of hands from people who find that celery makes stock bitter. I've never found it to be true, but know at least a couple of people who are adamant about it. I wonder if something gets extracted from celery that some people are more sensitive to than others.

One option is using celeriac instead of celery stalk ... similar flavor profile, but mellower and earthier. I doubt it would be as likely to release any kind of bitter flavor.

[Nick M]

Although I've tried many veal stock recipes (including Keller's) and have eaten at The French Laundry, I have a much more basic approach.

Browning the bones (and bits of flesh on the bones) brings out all sorts of flavors you simply don't get with a white stock. It's like making coffee with unroasted beans.

I make my stocks with bones and water.

First I rinse the bones if bloody, then I roast the bones (tossed with a bit of canola oil), then they go in a big stock-pot covered with a few inches of water. Simmer for 16-20 hours, strain through a wire mesh and de-grease if necessary.

For veal stock I normally reduce it to a glacé. So 24 pounds of bones which produce about 3 gallons of good stock becomes 7-8 cups of glacé. I then use the Julia method of freezing it in ice cube trays (and transferring to a ziplock bag) which produces easy scalability of use - from a pan sauce for one to a giant pot of braised beef. If I want straight stock I simply melt out a cube of glace in some water.

I like the the basics to be basic. I might not want the flavors of tomato or thyme in a dish that I use my stock for.

The end result is a deep-brown sticky puddle of love.

[tim]

I'd be curious to see of show of hands from people who find that celery makes stock bitter. I've never found it to be true, but know at least a couple of people who are adamant about it. I wonder if something gets extracted from celery that some people are more sensitive to than others.

Hi,

I can agree that celery adds some bitterness that is an appropriate balance to the sweetness from the carrots. Most of Kellers stocks are too sweet for my taste. I tend to be judicious with carrots but always include celery and leeks.

Considering what happens to finished stocks, this may be a moot point. In most cases we are making significant adjustments to flavor profiles in our finished dishes.

a supertaster may find the celery addition a problem.

Tim

[therippa]

Today I came across an awesome recipe for lasagna on Serious Eats, but their bolognese sauce calls for 2 cups of veal stock.

I make the french laundry stock about twice a year, freeze it into cubes, and use it primarily to boost the flavor of pan sauces and braises. While I have enough of it right now for this particular recipe, something tells me it would be a waste to use 2 cups of such a high quality/time consuming stock.

Would anyone consider tfl's veal stock more of a demi-glace? I mean, we're reducing 48 quarts of liquid down to about 3, and the stuff is so thick after being refrigerated you can stand a fork in it. If that's the case, would water dilution be acceptable?

Unless someone has already done this experiment, I was planning on doing a taste test...making something that should let the flavor of the stock shine (although I'm aware it's not technically supposed to impart it's own taste), but I'm not sure yet what the proper cooked dish for testing would be.

2oz tfl stock

2oz tfl stock diluted in 6oz water

8oz ruhlman oven stock

8oz of my butcher's veal stock (tastes a little salty to me, but at $4 for 16oz it's quite the deal/time saver)

Any thoughts?

[Qwerty]

When the stock is reduced as much as TFL stock, I would most definitely classify it as demi glace.

Tomato (or some other acid) is almost always added to stocks to improve the extraction of gelatin from the bones. That, along with it's sweet flavor and color, is the main reason why tomato is used in veal stocks. It is also why white wine is a classic ingredient in fish fumet--the acid will help extract the maximum amount of gelatin from the fish bones in the short time you cook it.

The neutrality of Keller's stock is key...it is a base for a lot of different sauces. That is why he doesn't roast his veal bones...you can always add the roasted flavors later. For example, if you are making a lamb sauce, you can add roasted lamb bones to the neutral veal stock and get the same, if not better, effect. It also reduces the chance of bitterness in the finished product if you don't roast the veal bones.

As far as something like celery, I do indeed think it can add bitterness. You have to remember that the stock is getting reduced a TON, so that any flavor you add will become that much stronger. So a pound or two of celery might not be that big of a deal in a gallon or two of STOCK, but once that becomes a few cups the bitter component can come out quite a bit.

[RobertCollins]

I have been making and using Non brown veal Stock for a few years. I got convinced by Ruhlman in 'Elements' to do it in the oven. I have tried some of the recipes I have found in my cook book collection and found that the way I use veal stock, just doesn't fit most other ways.

I use the stock pretty much non reduced and white. For me, Veal stock is mostly, an adder that produces not so much taste but mouthfeel or maybe if I understand UNCTUOUS[sp], that quality. If I had a formula that I could report, it would be that I use this stock to add its depth by using it to replace about 1/4 to 1/3 of the other stock called for. To me it adds body, depth of flavor and mouthfeel.

Ordered 10# veal bones and will pick up tomorrow. Tomorrow night will make Veal, Pork and the following morn Chicken stock.

I cut Rhulman's veggie add'n's to at least 1/2- I do not want to taste them at the level and way I am using them.

Having read this, I want to try a second run on the stock solids and see what I get.

[basquecook]

After making demi glace with 10 pounds of veal bones, i did a second run with the bones... I left the stock in a cambro in my backyard before all the snow.. It had been covered with a foot of snow for some time..

This is where we are as of last night..

[CindyJ]

'Tis the season for making stock for winter braises.  I've found a great source for veal bones at very reasonable prices, but every time I put up a pot of veal stock I wonder if I should be including beef bones in the mix. What are your thoughts?  Thanks!

[mkayahara]

No need. You should get more than enough gelatin from the veal bones.

[CindyJ]

No need. You should get more than enough gelatin from the veal bones.

I was wondering more about flavor than gelatin.

[huiray]

I think regardless of type of "meat" (chicken, veal, beef, pork, whathaveyou) bones one uses for stock – if there isn't at least some meat present there will be relatively little "taste". Mouthfeel/texture will be present (especially where it relates to gelatin and whatnot), but the meat-taste aspect benefits a lot from putting in either meaty bones or actual hunks/pieces of meat into the simmering stock.

[CindyJ]

I think regardless of type of "meat" (chicken, veal, beef, pork, whathaveyou) bones one uses for stock – if there isn't at least some meat present there will be relatively little "taste". Mouthfeel/texture will be present (especially where it relates to gelatin and whatnot), but the meat-taste aspect benefits a lot from putting in either meaty bones or actual hunks/pieces of meat into the simmering stock.

The bones I usually use for veal stock are shank bones, cut up, but with very little meat.  I generally roast them for a couple of hours,, along with onions, celery and carrots before they go into the stock pot with a bouquet garni for a long (~8 hours) simmer.  Are you suggesting adding some meat to the pot?  What type of meat would be best?  

[huiray]

Veal? :-)  But some beef might be fine too. But I'm sure others here will have some things to say about this.

[btbyrd]

The glory of veal stock is in its clean, neutral flavor. That's why veal demi glace can serve as the backbone of sauces for beef, chicken, pork, and even fish. But if you just want a beefy braising liquid (rather than something to make sauces from) then by all means throw in some beef bones while you're at it. In my experience, veal bones are typically more difficult to find and are more expensive (or you have to buy them in 10 or 20 lb increments for a butcher to sell them) than beef bones, so I usually use beef for making stock and just buy a quality demi glace to keep around in the event that I need to sauce something.

[CindyJ]

The glory of veal stock is in its clean, neutral flavor. That's why veal demi glace can serve as the backbone of sauces for beef, chicken, pork, and even fish. But if you just want a beefy braising liquid (rather than something to make sauces from) then by all means throw in some beef bones while you're at it. In my experience, veal bones are typically more difficult to find and are more expensive (or you have to buy them in 10 or 20 lb increments for a butcher to sell them) than beef bones, so I usually use beef for making stock and just buy a quality demi glace to keep around in the event that I need to sauce something.

A year or two ago, someone told me about a small Italian grocery/butcher shop that has veal bones.  I've found that if I phone a day or so ahead and tell them how much I need, they'll have them ready for me when I get there, sawed into manageable pieces and already bagged up.  And they only charge $3.99/lb.  But as I mentioned above, there's hardly any meat on the bones.  I just wasn't sure if I ought to "enhance" the stock by adding meat.  

[pbear]

I tried making veal stock from shank bones a couple times and was disappointed for precisely the reason you mention, not much flavor.  Now I make it with breast (the equivalent of spareribs on a pig), which has both meat and bone.  You probably could get to the same place by adding veal shoulder (chuck) to shank bones, say 50/50 by weight.

Edited September 23, 2015 by pbear (log)

[paulraphael]

Veal stock is great stuff, largely because of its neutrality, but it doesn't make as much sense today as it used to. Mainly because people eat a lot less veal, so the bones are no longer a cheap commodity (as btbyrd points out). It's also prized for its gelatin content, but you can get gelatin anywhere nowadays, including from a box of gelatin. You can also opt for any of dozens of different hydrocolloids, that may be tailored to produce even more desirable qualities.

 

It's also a lot faster to make a good stock these days, with the help of a pressure cooker. For all these reasons I'm more inclined to make stocks for specific purposes ... chicken, beef, duck, etc...

 

If I come across an affordable veal source, I'll snap some up and make a stock, but it's not a staple in my freezer.

[cdh]

I generally use veal breast and similar cuts for veal stock... I feel no loss from not adding beef.  In greater PHL, hit up the Russian markets on Bustleton ave for good prices and selection on vealy stuff.

[gfweb]

Somebody or other, probably Kenji, made stock with bones cleaned of meat ===> no flavor at all.