Kitchen Knives: Preferences, Tips, General Care

[phatj]

I'm to the point of thinking about a new chef's knife. Mine is a 10 inch Chicago Cutlery (a little over 2 inches wide). I've had it thirty some years and it is the knife I use most often. However I find it is getting somewhat heavy for me. I've read that current Chicago Cutlery blades are lighter, but not in a good way.

I am a home cook. My hands are medium sized, long fingers, very little strength. My thumb is double jointed and arthritic in the bottom joint. I also have Dupuytren's disease, also known as Viking's disease, which is not bad yet but is progressing.

Last fall I put the Chicago Cutlery through my thumbnail (and my thumb) and I confess I am now a little scared of it. Though I still use it. I have plenty of other knives that I don't use or don't use often. A paring knife and a bread knife are the only others that get regular use. However the Chicago Cutlery is my only chef's knife. I had a smaller Chicago Cutlery chefs knife, maybe 6 or 8 inches but I gave it away years ago, because I figured I did not need two chef's knives.

What I've been thinking about is an 8 inch or maybe 9 inch Wusthof Le Cordon Bleu. Could anyone offer thoughts or suggestions?

Wusthof knives are fairly heavy, so I'm not sure that would be the direction I would recommend for you.

Have you ever used a Japanese gyuto? It's the closest equivalent of a western chef's knife, but with a thinner blade, and a harder steel. I have a 270mm (~10.6") Kanetsugu Pro-M gyuto that is 2.5 oz lighter than my 8-inch Henckels. The thinner blade means it can take a keener edge and that it takes less work to get it through whatever you're cutting. The one thing it doesn't do well is cut very hard material, as the blade will chip more easily than a thicker, softer one. But you could always keep the Chicago Cutlery knife for those types of tasks.

Edited January 25, 2014 by phatj (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Interesting site, thanks. I notice the 8 inch gyuto is sold out. I have never seen a Le Cordon Bleu, however Wusthof claims they are 30 percent lighter than the Classic series. I have four Classic Wusthof for comparison, just not a Wusthof chef's knife.

Another type of chef's knife I found today is made by New West:

http://www.newwestknifeworks.com/product/kitchen-knives--fusionwood-20-line/9-chef-knife-fusionwood-20/3556

Anyone have experience with New West? The 9 inch chef's knife I linked has a weight of 6.9 ounces.

Edit for spelling.

Edited January 26, 2014 by JoNorvelleWalker (log)

[boudin noir]

Wusrtof or Henkles. Don't like Global. Too light, too flexable, don't like the handles.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I don't like the look of Global, nor the idea of metal handles, so Global was not under consideration. I have a couple of Henkles knives: one I can't ever seem to get sharp, though it is a nice size for small slicing tasks. The other is a 3.5 inch from the Twinstar line, I am embarrased to say, though I probably use it second only to the Chicago chef's knife. The Twinstar series can't be shrpened, but mine has stayed sharp enough to use for many years. I love the feel and shape of it, and if it were really, really sharp, it would be almost perfect. But it is not a chef's knife.

I have some Gerber knives but they are dull as ditchwater (though since this is a culinary forum, perhaps I should say dull as dishwater). I even have (or had, since I recently threw it away) a Gerber sharpening set with stones and oil (that leaks) and spent a lot of time trying. Gerber also has the downside of metal handles.

Thus the knives I am familiar with are Wusthof, Henkles, Chicago, and Gerber. I am willing to try something new. One requirement is that the knife not have a full bolster. That rules out most of the Wusthof models and has me considering Le Cordon Bleu.

But I am drawn to the New West 9 inch chef's knife I posted about yesterday. I wish someone could report on it. New West is well reveiwed by several bloggers, though that is not the same as someone's opinion who had to pay for it. If New West wants to send me one for free I'll write something nice too! As I understand it the knife is designed by New West and manufactured by Lamson and Goodnow in Massachusetts.

And now as much as I would like to sit here and chat about chef's knives, I have to go sharpen my Chicago and start chopping onions for dinner.

[Kerry Beal]

Love my Wustof Gourmet 8" chef knife. Got my first with a knife class I took at the LCBO - have bought a couple more since. No bolster, light and fits my hand well.

[Martin Fisher]

How about the Richmond Artifex?

It's reasonably priced, weighs just 6 ounces and has lots of favorable reviews.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

How about the Richmond Artifex?

It's reasonably priced, weighs just 6 ounces and has lots of favorable reviews.

Interesting. This is a possibility. Looks similar to the High West, but lower tech at a lot less cost. The High West has a thicker grip at the handle, for example. But both the Richmond Artifex and the High West are made by Lamson and Goodnow, which might explain the similarity. If I can afford it I'd rather try the High West, but the cost of the Artifex is hard to beat. I also have some preference for the 9 inch size over the 8 inch.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Love my Wustof Gourmet 8" chef knife. Got my first with a knife class I took at the LCBO - have bought a couple more since. No bolster, light and fits my hand well.

If I were to buy Wusthof though I think I would spend a little more and get the Le Cordon Bleu version.

[Martin Fisher]

How about the Richmond Artifex?

It's reasonably priced, weighs just 6 ounces and has lots of favorable reviews.

Interesting. This is a possibility. Looks similar to the High West, but lower tech at a lot less cost. The High West has a thicker grip at the handle, for example. But both the Richmond Artifex and the High West are made by Lamson and Goodnow, which might explain the similarity. If I can afford it I'd rather try the High West, but the cost of the Artifex is hard to beat. I also have some preference for the 9 inch size over the 8 inch.

There is a longer Artifex (240mm).

There's also the 240mm Richmond Remedy which is a bit fancier.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

The Remedy is pretty. Do you have any experience with it? What, by the way, is a saya? Google was no help to me. The the thumb and forefinger grip point looks more comfortable on the High West, but it is hard to tell from pictures. Handle of the Richmond has three pins, while High West uses two. Richmond's pins are brass (which probably qualifies for a California health warning). Not sure what material High West uses for their pins.

To compare, both knives use cocobolo wood and both are manufactured by Lamson and Goodnow. Hardness is the same. However the alloys they are made from are different. Richmond uses CPM154 while High West uses CPM S35VN, both steels it seems from the same company. Looking at the Crucible Industries data sheet it appears S35VN offers improved edge retention and toughness.

Lastly (and it sort of matters) the High West is in stock. The Richmond Remedy is not.

[Martin Fisher]

A saya is a sheath.

I don't have a Remedy but a friend does and he's very happy with it.

The New West knife is certainly beautiful but I prefer a knife with more belly.

Edited January 27, 2014 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Thanks. Just from looking at the pictures the belly on the two knives seems about the same, and is slightly more than on my Chicago Cutlery. What would be an example chef's knife that you like?

[Martin Fisher]

The Artifex Extra Tall.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

We may mean different things by "belly". I was thinking of the curvature of the cutting edge. I'm wondering if you mean the distance between the bottom of the cutting edge and spine?

However for me the Artifex Extra Tall at 8.4 ounces would be too heavy. My Chicago is 8 ounces and I was hoping for something a little lighter. The New West is 6.9 ounces.

[Burke]

You may want to look at MAC knives MTH-80. Japanese steel in a western design. Light and flexible yet feels like a western knife. I have a 8" Wustoff chef knife (which I quite liked when I got it) and a shun suntuko and this replaced both of them with out any regrets http://www.macknife.com/kitchen/products-by-series/professional-series/3-mth-80-professional-series-8q-chefs-knife-with-dimples.html.

This comes very highly rated not only by myself, but Americas Test Kitchen and Cooking for Engineers

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Thanks to everyone who offered me suggestions. My tax refund came today, and as it happens newwest is having a sale. So I stopped thinking and ordered the 9 inch chef's knife I linked above. Still expensive, but at the moment it is $50 off. Shipping was $15 which seems reasonable.

I can't wait to see how it compares with my 10 inch Chicago.

[patrickamory]

Do the dimples really work?

[JoNorvelleWalker]

They seem to on one of my Wusthof slicing knives that has them. It will be several days yet before the new newwest knife arrives.

[lindag]

I have a MAC and several Shuns. They have shoved the Wusthofs from the knife block. I much prefer the Asian edges.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

I received my New West 9 inch chef's knife. Compared to the 10 inch Chicago, the New West is lighter, thinner, and less wide; more agile and better balanced. Much as one might expect from a blade that cost about ten times as much. Much easier for me to wield. The New West feels comfortable and natural to me in a pinch grip. The same cannot be said for the Chicago.

But all is not beer and skittles. The color of the wood of the laminated handle does not match from side to side. Even so the handle is attractive and functional, however I would, for that price, have expected a little better. Worse, the tip of the blade is ever so slightly bent. Just enough to notice.

When I was younger I used to run a small manufacturing company. I know stuff happens, and sometimes product goes out the door that shouldn't. I have emailed New West with my concerns. I assume they will make good.

I can't yet say whether 9 inches is long enough for a chef's knife. However the 10 inch was getting hard for me to handle.

[paulraphael]

This subject comes up often, and I realized people are practically speaking different languages when it comes to knives. Unlike 25 years ago, when all the knives available in the West were European-style and fairly homogenous, we now have four distinct families of knives, with different materials, designs, intended markets, and associated techniques.

There's room for all of them. But chosing a family is more than a matter of price or esthetics. You're also choosing a set of appropriate techniques, for cutting, sharpening, and basic care. Moving from a Wustoff to a Suisin will not guarantee that you'll cut better, even if you believe (as I do) that the Suisin is the superior knife. Trying to use techniques that work on the former will trash the latter.

I think of a knife as a platform that's designed to support a set of sharpening and cutting techniques. A high-end knife will support a higher lever of these techniques. So its potential is higher. But out of the box, and without any additional education, it may not be better at all. And after a few weeks of incorrect use, it may end up an expensive desk ornament. It's best to understand the potential, and the costs, associated with each family of knife.

Here's a very brief breakdown of the knife families. My descriptions should be undersood as unreasonably broad generalizations. If you dig into each knife company's catalog, you'll certainly find many exceptions. Finally, I'm listing brands as examples, not specific recommendations. That could be the subject of a hundred other threads.

1. Traditional European Knives:

(These are the only knives most of us knew about until 20 or so years ago)

Examples

all the Solingen German knives

Sabatier French knives*

Forschner

Old American brands (Chicago, Lamson, etc.)

Pros:

-Very durable.

-Can handle a reasonable amount of abuse.

-Work with the European techniques taught in most cooking schools and most online courses (like the eGullet course), or with no technique at all.

-Chefs knife designed as a jack-of-all trades, so it cultivates a very economical set of techniques. You can do 95% of everything with a chef’s knife and paring knife.

-Very easy to maintain on a steel

Cons:

-Soft steel and fat edge geometry limit these knives’ performance, and require forceful technique to cut well (rock-chopping, etc.)

2. Japanese Crossover Knives:

(these are knives made in Japan for Western consumers. They are designed to be used by people used to European style knives, with little adaptation)

Examples

Shun

Global

Wasabi

Pros:

-Higher performance edge geometry and metalurgy when compared with Euro knives

-Close to the durability of Euro knives

-Can handle a reasonable amount of abuse

-Can be sharpened with their factory edge geometry, for use with traditional European techniques, or can be modified with a higher performance geometry, for more refined Japanese techiques.

Cons:

-Metalurgy and edge geometry is still lower performance than professional Japanese knives

-Some of these knives are a pain in the ass to sharpen. They are harder than European knives, and while softer than professional Japanese knives, sometimes use proprietary allows that resist sharpening stones (especially Global).

-Price/performance ratio is often disappointing

Japanese Professional Western-Style Knives:

(these are knives made in Japan for cooks proficient in Japanese cutting and sharpening techniques, and who prepare Western-style food. The category could also include hand-made or small production knives made in other countries in this style).

Examples

Masamoto

Aritsugu

Suisin

Misono

Mizuno Tanrenjo

Tojiro

Hiromoto

Kikuichi

Sugimoto

Takeda

Mac

Sakai Takayuki

Ikkanshi Tadatsuna

Hattori

Ryusen

Fujiwara

Kanemasa

Glestain

Shigefusa

Some non-Japanese hand-made knives in this style

(This list is U.S.-Centric only because of my ignorance)

Carter

Kramer

Devin Thomas

Harner

Cut Brooklyn

Pros:

-These tend to have superior metalurgy to European and crossover knives

-Edge geometry varies from robust profiles similar to crossover knives, to extremely thin and high-performance

-Will generally take a sharper edge and keep it longer than Euro or crossover knives

-Allow a range of more refined and efficient cutting techniques. Allow different approaches to prep (if knives are sharp, herbs and fruit will not discolor or lose flavor for many hours after cutting)

-At the lower end of the price range, price/performance ratio is fantastic

Cons:

-general-purpose knives (like the gyuto) are more fragile than Euro and crossover knives. They require more delicate technique, and more specialization (you’ll need a heavy knife, like a German chef’s knife or westerd deba, for heavy cutting).

-You’ll also need sharpening skills. Don’t even consider these knives if you’re not willing to invest in waterstones (or an edge-pro system) and the skills to use them. Most of these knives don’t even ship with a sharp edge on them.

-Below a fairly high price point, the fit and finish of these knives is often crude. They are seen as utilitarian tools for cooks. A $100 gyuto will probably look a lot cheaper than a $100 German knife, belying its better performance.

-It’s hard to get educated on the skills to use these knives. Good information is scarce. The best sources are chefs who have trained in Japan but who cook Western food. Some of them have made instructional videos.

-They are habit-forming! Your spouse and your therapist have a limited attention span for your new knife hobby.

Traditional Japanese Knives

(These are single-edge knives designes specifically for Japanese food preparation. They are the most sophisticated and specialized of all kitchen knives. Their utility in preparing Western food is questionable, but some cooks use them as a matter of pride and because they enjoy learning the precise and relatively unforgiving techniques.)

Same brands as above.

There are literally dozens of different traditional knife designs, but the primary ones are the usuba, wich is designed for cutting vegetables and is the most challenging knife to use correctly; the yanagi (what we often call a sushi knife), for slicing protein, and the deba, which is a thick, stout knife for filleting and butchering fish.

Pros:

-highest performance knives available

Cons:

-most specialized knives available. They are designed for very specific ranges of techniques, many of which have limited relevance to Western cooking.

-the learning curves are steep. Many online videos are available on subjects like using a deba to butcher every imaginable fish variety. But it won’t be easy. And if you want to learn to use a usuba correctly, you will probably want some one-on-one, and a few bushels of daikons, and some internet bandwidth, and some bandaids.

*Sabatier knives are hard to generalize, because they are made by so many companies. The best among them, like the carbon steel K-Sabatiers, have excellent steel and very thin edge geometries. Their performance is closer to that of the professional Western Japanese knives than to other Euro knives.

Edited February 26, 2014 by paulraphael (log)

[dcarch]

"---we now have four distinct families of knives, with different materials, designs, intended markets, and associated techniques.----"

Only four? ​A Chinese chef will never use any other style except a cleaver. There may be more cleavers in use than any other knife styles.

dcarch

[paulraphael]

Only four? ​A Chinese chef will never use any other style except a cleaver. There may be more cleavers in use than any other knife styles.

You're right, the Chinese cleaver is its own category. And I know people who don't use anything else, even when they're making meat loaf.

I'm sure I've left out whole cultures. Someone's going to mention the Italian Mezzaluna, and I have no idea what's traditional in Iran or Thailand.

Maybe I should have left out the traditional Japanese knives, and just focussed on families of knives made in European-derived shapes for Western cooking.

[jayt90]

Only four? ​A Chinese chef will never use any other style except a cleaver. There may be more cleavers in use than any other knife styles.

You're right, the Chinese cleaver is its own category. And I know people who don't use anything else, even when they're making meat loaf.

I'm sure I've left out whole cultures. Someone's going to mention the Italian Mezzaluna, and I have no idea what's traditional in Iran or Thailand.

Maybe I should have left out the traditional Japanese knives, and just focussed on families of knives made in European-derived shapes for Western cooking.

I went through a lot of Sabatier and Japanese knives until I found CCK cleavers and slicers from Hong Kong. Most of them less than $50 in the CCK Toronto store.

http://www.chanchikee.com/ChineseKnives.html

[rotuts]

is there a site in english and can they be ordered for the USA? USA prices ?