Babies/Children in Restaurants (merged topic)

[Mayhaw Man]

Not sure I want to touch this topic...but you really don't see a serious DECLINE in the way kids are raised in the US, especially in middle and upper middle class households?  The focus has shifted from raising a child to supporting and justifying the child's every wish, desire, fear, etc.  The result is incredibly self-centered non-adults who have no concept of right/wrong and think that since they always won playing Candyland with mommy and daddy, then their college professor has no right to give them a C+ in Chemistry.

I compare the way I see children raised in the US to France and its scary.  Certainly, this is personal observation, but French children at meals are PART of the meal, not the focus of the meal.  As young as 4 or 5 and they are expected to eat whatever is being served and rarely do they act up to the point of becoming the center of attention for the family or restaurant. 

This topic is rediculous. It is leading to nothing but generalizations and innuendo that are not, and frankly cannot be, supported by anything other than emotion.

My children behave. I am not from France. I behave. I am not particularly self absorbed and both of my children have a very clear view of right and wrong. I got my ass kicked in Candyland and later bridge and gin regularly by my parents (although I started taking the old man in tennis when I was 10 and have been doing it ever since-no quarter given, none asked for). My kids have been eating pretty much whatever hits the table in front of them for as long as they have been out of high chairs. They are interesting, funny, can hold up their end of the conversation, and have reasonably good manners. My children are in no way unique. I know lots and lots of families with children who have been raised to behave this way. So don't lump everybody into one big basket. The world doesn't work like that.

Personal responsibility is the key to the whole thing with raising chldren. Show them by example when they are young and when they get older- expect it and enforce it if they fail.

This got discussed to death around the New Year and if you guys want to continue flogging this dead horse-fine. I think that I will withdraw from the field and take my kids out to eat tonight.

I would reccomend that the personal attacks come to a halt. This could be an interesting subject, even after so much discussion 4 months ago, if the name calling stopped.

[DCMark]

French children at meals are PART of the meal...

Yes, but are they sautéed, braised or roasted?

Sorry, couldn't resist. I have observed the same thing for many years: French children, sitting quietly through extended meals in fancy restaurants. Like the French dietary paradox (smoke, drink, eat, but be thin and live longer) I find this one elusive. Perhaps it's the little sips of wine that the kiddies receive.

The absolute WORST behavior of children I have ever seen was in France actually, in Chamonix last year. We were staying at Hotel La Savoyarde which to our delight had a wonderful little restaurant (one of those little places in France with a 25 year old cook out-cooking any French restaurant in DC).

We were seated in a room with a large table of two or three international couples. Italian/German, English/Spanish and maybe a french person. About three kids who as the meal progressed got louder and louder. One continually ran around the table screaming and throwing things. The boy's mother was Italian, and not to stereotype, but Italian mother's seem to be the biggest pushovers (there is a phenomenon called Maminos (sp?) where 40 year old men still live with Mama) and she did nothing to stop except mumor 'Paolo, Paolo...'.

After about 30 minutes of this the French couple behind us finally snapped and nicely asked them to stop, that this was a nice restaurant, etc. This did not sit well with the big table but they finally got the hint and left. Afterwards I turned to the woman and thanked her for doing what I did not have the guts to do.

[Minister of Drink]

Hm. Well, I'll agree with regard to some restaurants and not others (i.e. children don't belong at Nectar, for example, but should be fine at Whitlows in Wilson or other places with mats to drawn on) and some children and not others (I think it's possible to teach children to behave when going out to dinner, and those that don't learn shouldn't be taken out). So what kind of restaurant was this??

ps. Advocating punching a child are you? Or the parent?

I agree... Nectar is no place for children. The restaurant I am referring to is the Boulevard Woodgrill. Incidentally, the kid thing took place there at the bar which was -- WHERE LOTS OF PEOPLE WERE SMOKING AND ALL WERE DRINKING!!!! Talk about a great place to bring a 4 or 5 year old. But no matter what the place (even somewhere like Whitlows), children should be behaved. I don't blame them when things go wrong, but their parents who don't do anything and subjugate the rest of us to their offspring gone rotten. People need to be a little more considerate.

For the record, I DO NOT advocate punching a child or anything like that. I'll admit, I overstated it (probably for effect) with 5 accross the eye... However, if one of the little pogues gets out of line at a restaurant, a quick smack in public (not one that hurts) is certainly in order.

[DCMark]

Not sure I want to touch this topic...but you really don't see a serious DECLINE in the way kids are raised in the US, especially in middle and upper middle class households?  The focus has shifted from raising a child to supporting and justifying the child's every wish, desire, fear, etc.  The result is incredibly self-centered non-adults who have no concept of right/wrong and think that since they always won playing Candyland with mommy and daddy, then their college professor has no right to give them a C+ in Chemistry.

I compare the way I see children raised in the US to France and its scary.  Certainly, this is personal observation, but French children at meals are PART of the meal, not the focus of the meal.  As young as 4 or 5 and they are expected to eat whatever is being served and rarely do they act up to the point of becoming the center of attention for the family or restaurant. 

This topic is rediculous. It is leading to nothing but generalizations and innuendo that is not, and frankly cannot be, supported by anything other than emotion.

My children behave. I am not from France. I behave. I am not particularly self absorbed and both of my children have a very clear view of right and wrong. I got my ass kicked in Candyland and later bridge and gin regularly by my parents (although I started taking the old man in tennis when I was 10 and have been doing it ever since-no quarter given, none asked for). My kids have been eating pretty much whatever hits the table in front of them for as long as they have been out of high chairs. They are interesting, funny, can hold up their end of the conversation, and have reasonably good manners. My children are in no way unique. I know lots and lots of families with children who have been raised to behave this way. So don't lump everybody into one big basket. The world doesn't work like that.

Personal responsibility is the key to the whole thing with raising chldren. Show them by example when they are young and when they get older- expect it and enforce it if they fail.

This got discussed to death around the New Year and if you guys want to continue flogging this dead horse-fine. I think that I will withdraw from the field and take my kids out to eat tonight.

I would reccomend that the personal attacks come to a halt. This could be an interesting subject, even after so much discussion 4 months ago, if the name calling stopped.

You personally sound like a great parent. But its not just opinion that kids in the US today are often raised by parents who have no concept of the word NO or that life does not revolve around them. We see it everyday. Ask any therapist, police officer or college professor. Its pathetic!

Its funny how you make your statement then run away from the conversation, isn't it?

[Comfort Me]

For the record, I DO NOT advocate punching a child or anything like that. I'll admit, I overstated it (probably for effect) with 5 accross the eye... However, if one of the little pogues gets out of line at a restaurant, a quick smack in public (not one that hurts) is certainly in order.

[Mabelline]

I love kids...we were all kids (duh) and someone had to give you parameters...but Hell every once in awhile, the crap rolls downhill. If a kid's being a hazard, tell someone...I am used to normal kids, who, once in awhile, went outside to get THE LECTURE...and upon returning, did indeed behave. But I might be alone...

[Mayhaw Man]

Its funny how you make your statement then run away from the conversation, isn't it?

Not running away. Just not wasting my time repeating myself on a subject that, to me, has been discussed to death.

I am not, in fact, a particularly great parent. I do live decently and try to provide my children with a decent example of how someone should behave in their daily life (and so does my wife, who incidentally, is a great parent). I, too often, put work before home and that is a major problem and something that I hope that my children never do. Outside of that they can pretty much live by our example and that, by the way, is exactly how I was brought up. Hopefully the trend will continue with my children.

Now, back to the subject (since I regrettably took to the bait)-

Parents are responsible for their kids when they take them out to eat (and incidentally-once a child is in that range-roughly 2-4- that they cannot control their emotions very well, it is probably better to take them out to someplace that is suited for loud active behavior-not fine dining-that being said, I always enjoy seeing parents out with sleeping babies ) and to teach them to behave. The trick is that they should be able to behave reasonably well BEFORE you take them out to eat. Manners start at home-not the first time they sit down at a public table.

[ellencho]

Ok, so I'm admitting out loud that I'm not a fan of misbehaving children anywhere, muchless fine dining establishments but I've managed to come up with a way to tolerate crying/whining bratty children that makes my meal a lot more pleasant.

Children only have so much lung capacity, so they'll cry/whine for a while, and then when they run out of air, they'll take a deep breath to commence crying activities. That deep breath is what cracks me up. It reminds me of when kids take sips of drinks, and inevitably, there will always be that "ah!" after they've had their sip, and that too amuses me to no end.

Yeah, I used to roll my eyes at misbehaving children and their parents and become annoyed, but I realized it's the equivalent of hating and brooding over a person who doesn't even know you're annoyed at them, and concentrating all of your energy on them, and all the while they're going about their lives perfectly happy. So now I try to find the humor in bratty children and their inept parental units. I suppose if the brat factor is turned up to excessive, it wouldn't hurt to contact the restaurant manager.

[Minister of Drink]

Oh, yes.  One of those smacks that DOESN'T hurt.  Along with some public humiliation that DOESN'T scar. 

If that was an attempt to dig yourself out, it didn't work.

Tell me -- if YOU bother people in public, is it alright if someone smacks YOU?

My 7 year old is probably better behaved in restaurants than YOU are, if your postings are any indication of your character and behavior.

If I really misbehave in public & violate the peace and quiet of other people... and someone tells me to quit and I don't -- Yeah, smack me. But that will not happen because I know how to behave and am respectful and considerate to other people, even those with children!

This was not at all an attempt to dig myself out, but an honest admission that I overstated things -- I was upset when I first wrote my post. NOW LET IT GO!

Edited May 12, 2004 by Minister of Drink (log)

[jhlurie]

It could be argued that babies and 7 year old children are not the same thing, so I've changed the name of the existing topic to reflect both. But since the course of these discussions--including the somewhat ridiculous sniping at each other--has been very parallel they deserve to be considered to be considered together.

Here are some basic guidelines:

1.) If you are bored by this particular discussion go read/post-in another topic

2.) If your children behave, don't generalize and assume all children behave. Likewise, if you've sat next to children who didn't behave, don't generalize that all children don't.

3.) Conduct your personal debates. apologies, etc. by PM. We will all thank you for that.

4.) If you have reasonable cause to suspect any other user is "a troll", the best way to deal with that it to report it to eGullet management and ignore him or her in public venues. Rule #1 for trolls is that they exist to bait you. Assuming a user is a troll (and I'm NOT assuming that simply because someone here says it), they get their "kick" from your response. If you don't give it to them... they hate that.

The next step is locking this topic. We won't take that step if people here resume discussing the actual issue, but we will if you can't all check the venom at the door.

EDIT - And before any of you ask let me state... YES, some of your posts have been deleted. If you were debating some of the points made in this topic, they probably weren't, but if it was simply a statement of how bored or disgusted you are, then they were. You can take issue with what the original poster said (I've got two nieces who are in the age range described... so I do), but that has to take a more substantial form than simply saying "go fuck yourself" or "I'm bored".

Edited May 12, 2004 by jhlurie (log)

[Busboy]

DC has some fabulous Ethiopian restaurants -- can we talk about them instead?

Ethiopian restauranteurs love kids. Even at 15 and 11 they still draw excellent service to the table, when they were 6 and 10 they got us treated like royalty.

[hjshorter]

DC has some fabulous Ethiopian restaurants -- can we talk about them instead?

Ethiopian restauranteurs love kids. Even at 15 and 11 they still draw excellent service to the table, when they were 6 and 10 they got us treated like royalty.

I have found that our kids are especially welcomed at the Chinese, Thai, and Indian places we frequent. The kids have never had Ethiopian food but I bet they would get a kick out of eating with their hands.

[Comfort Me]

Self Edited to Comply with the eGullet User Agreement.

Although I seriously doubt there is anyone enjoying this topic.

Edited May 12, 2004 by Comfort Me (log)

[jhlurie]

I'm not going to write a dozen different explanations for a dozen different deletions. The reasons for them are not necessarily identical. Sometimes a post is deleted because it refers to an earlier deleted post. Is that an ideal circumstance? No. Is it necessary? Yes. If there had been less to delete, then the notifications and explanations would have been handled individually by PM.

As for locking the topic? I'm tempted to do so and let it be on your head for not reading the eGullet User Agreement about how and where to debate administrative decisions, and anyone enjoying other aspects of the topic could look to you for an explanation of why this discussion has been ended. I'm only posting THIS publically, because this situation has gone too far for me not to. I don't particularly care about my time being wasted debating this, but we are also wasting the time of hundreds of other readers.

Consider this the last warning. There have been far too many already.

[Chanteuse]

Ok...

I CLEARLY want to state ahead of time. I'm not bashing children or parents in restaurants. That is NOT my intention.

This has nothing to do with not LOVING kids and not being parent friendly. God BLESS parents and the excruciatingly tough job that they do. I KNOW. I was one myself.

But, I'm increasingly weary and resentful of going in for a romantic/quiet/adult meal with my husband ... spending $150 (give or take) and having LITERALLY it ruined by the chaos that "too young" or "too tired" or "too spoiled" or " too undersupervised" kids bring. Especially when we watch parents making little or no effort to take responsibility for their children's misbehavior.

As a retiring couple, $150 is a LOT of money to be wasted on a meal that becomes very unpleasant/nerve-wracking.

A good meal is too expensive to spend it with a kids jabbering/yelling/crying/ Fussy-eater-whining/throwing fits or food nearby. Heck it doesn't even have to be near by.

Yet, this happens at at too many restaurants we attend. Depending on the time of year, this can be from say 25% to 75% of the time. (average 40%-50%)

And I'm not talking about "family style" restaurants. Of COURSE you go in there expecting kids and families of all sizes.

I'm talking about the type of restaurant that anyone would know was aimed towards an adult clientèle. Where ALL of their tables are for parties of 2 and 4 and it takes a lot of logistics to put the tables together for a party of 6 and above.

So, my question is. Is there nothing we (my husband and I) can do to ensure a better dining experience?

Do (certain) restaurants have the ability to enforce the "If your kids can't behave, you need to leave" policy?

Is it reasonable to say to the restaurant owners/mangers ... "The children are extremely disruptive... either you need to do something about it, or we need to leave and would like our money back/need a discount." If not ... then what DO we do? Never go out to eat again?

Again, I feel the need to put a disclaimer here. I'm totally aware of the extreme difficulties that parents and restaurant managers/owners face ... and I have deep appreciation, respect and sympathy for them...

However, ... when a good percentage of our meals are disrupted, at what point to we have the right to assert OUR rights without being branded 'uncooperative" or "cranky" or "unreasonable"?

I don't want to cause trouble. But darn it. If we're going to spend hundreds on a meal, can't we at least expect it to be a pleasant one?

How to handle the situation, especially when it's become chronic?

[Mark Sommelier]

I started a thread on eG 2 years ago on this exact topic. Unfortunately, I can't find it to link to it now. After I had to work a horrendous Christmas Eve, 3 Sets of oblivious parents, cranky grannies and toddlers came in. I swear that the infants were calling to each other in the restaurant like monkeys in the jungle. I work in an extremely expensive, upscale restaurant. You can be sure that this noise disturbed everyone in the restaurant. What do you do?

[kellytree]

Get someone that works there to take the kids on a little tour -- out back to the dumpster - tell them that if they don't behave they will have to go and sit in the dumpster for the rest of the meal.

To be kind you may want to add a little story about how one time your son came to eat with you and he was badddddd and the chef stuck him in the dumpster for 2 hours and it was really stinky and from that day on Junior is always well behaved (just so they know that they will live through the experience)

Going to the parents and tell them that the angels are little shits probably won't work so you could also have the kids come to your table and bribe them - 5 bucks if you sit down and behave and be quite and use your manners ....

Otherwise I think you just have to deal with it-- get to the restaurant - see kids - change your mental state. Somehow try to work with it.

Personally when I go with my kids to nice restaurants (and mannnnnn, do we get dirty looks until people find out that grampa owns the place!) - the whole drive to the restaurant is me telling the kids that they must behave, no bad words, one trip to the toilet only so wait til ya really gotta go, please- thank you. ect ect...... and if they do not behave what will mommmy do?? pluck out your toesnails, starve you for a week, throw away all electronic games ect. ect.

Threats work.

[fero style]

or you can tell your server ` see that table with the kids ? they are my close relatives and they`ll pick up my check ! `

[shelly59]

It seems so odd to me that parents give no thought to their children's comfort these days, wrt eating out. WHY take a small child, with a limited attention span and even more limited palate, to a place that is going to seriously challange both? Then get all snippy or feign obliviousness to the resulting havoc? It seems cruel, at least to me.

I started taking my nephew out when he was very young..about 4 years old. But is was to MCDONALD'S, not the Green Room at the Hotel DuPont. We worked our way up..once he learned how to act at a McDonald's type place, we moved up a bit..now at the age of 12 he is comfortable anywhere and knows EXACTLY how to behave. But it took work and patience and foregoing nicer places until he was ready. In my opinion, thats just how it goes...

It also strikes me that behavior that would have mortified MY mom & dad is now just, whatever.. My parents were EXACTLY like yours, Kellytree, IF we went out, and we seldom did as they could afford to take 5 kids out but rarely, we were peppered with instructions on how to behave all the way in. And God HELP the one who broke any rule, cus they would pack us all up and head right back home.

I have a friend who waits tables in a "family" style restaurant and her solution to bratty kids is to enlist the aid of the kitchen and bring the food to the table as fast a possible and just basically rush the offending party out the door. I watched her move a family with wandering squackers through an entire meal in 30 minutes..it was hilarious. They never knew what hit them.

ETA: LOL at Fero Style

Edited April 28, 2005 by shelly59 (log)

[DCMark]

I think the problem is that people can often be rude and completely selfish. This includes people with children, but also drunks, people with cell phones, loud people. etc. Its an increasing problem in the 'me first and me only' era. Rude people with kids seem to stick out.

Mark, I would never tell you how to run the restaurant...but why would it be suicide for the manager to tell the parent's their kids behavior is not apropriate for a 4 star restaurant? At worst they leave and never come back. But everyone else suffering in the restaurant may be thinking the same thing.

The post you are looking for, from Minister of Drink seems to have gone 'legacy'.

Edited April 28, 2005 by DCMark (log)

[hjshorter]

Ugh. As a parent let me apologize for the poor judgement of my brethren.

I see it all the time even at the family restaurants. Tired, stressed out children out long past their bedtime. Oblivious parents. It ruins our meals too, because we have to tell our kids constantly that "no, you cannot get down from the table like those other kids over there." We always go early, never stay longer than an hour, and never take them to places where the entrees cost more than $20. If my kids act up, and they do occasionally, we leave immediately. One takes the offender to the car, the other gets the food wrapped and takes care of the check.

We also never frequent places where kids are expected to run around, like Chuckie Cheese or fast food joints with play areas. Restaurants are for eating and using your good manners. Those are ruining kids for other establishments, because the precedent (making noise, running around) has been set and young kids can't always get the difference between one type of restaurant and another - and their parents can't seem to either.

Ask the manager to say something to them. They may get offended, but who cares? Perhaps they will think twice about taking their kids to inappropriate restaurants.

[jm chen]

I have luckily never had this problem, but I feel like saying something to the manager, asking if you can be reseated, is the most appropriate thing to do with the greatest chance of success.

Speaking to the parents directly is less likely to get a result -- if they thought it was OK to bring the kids in the first place, they'll likely think the kids are a) either behaving just fine or b) on the verge of shutting up any minute now.

Now, whether the restaurant can actually reseat you, they may not be able to. But they can offer to do something else, and you've made a concrete suggestion. Maybe they will comp something, maybe they will address the parents themselves and offer to wrap up their food to go. Just open the door and see.

Edited April 28, 2005 by jm chen (log)

[brr]

um......what Heather said

I dunno, people are just rude - we do take your 4 year old to restaurants but shes a pretty mellow kid and we always try to eat early and quickly....and its amazing what the promise of ice cream at the end of a meal can do to foster good behavior!!

But we'd never take her to Citronelle, Maestro or Eve....Bucks or Zaytinya yes, but when I go to a really nice place, as much as I love my child, I was the evening to be about us (and the food), not her

Did anyone see the story in Toms chat yesterday about the parents who brought a portable DVD player into a restaurant, plugged it in and let the child watch Toy Story, while they ate a meal - poor kid....

[Mayhaw Man]

Here is a VERY long and sometimes heated discussion about dining with children in high end restaurants

I did not merge the two topics as there are lots of new people here who still haven't had the chance to, well, vent about this subject. As I was reading through the older thread I realized that I might as well get this outof the way...

This thread is not about your children. It is about those other children so don't take it personally and get all wound up. It's a discussion, not a personal battle for the rights of all children.

[banco]

When I read chanteuse's original post, I thought the parents and non-parents would soon be sniping at each other on this thread. Instead, the many thoughtful and intelligent things that previous posters have said on this topic could serve as a guide for people on both sides of the issue. As far as the parents are concerned, shelly59, hjshorter, brr, and DCMark are right on the money: It's a matter of not overtaxing your children and preparing them before the event when you do choose to go to a somewhat more "adult" establishment. We have a 4-year-old who behaves extremely well at restaurants because we have trained him to do so and insist on it. Still, we would never think of taking him to a place like the Tasting Room at Eve, Marcel's, or Citronelle. Neither my wife nor I would be able to give our meals the concentration and attention they would properly deserve at such establishments. That's even hard enough with other adults around.

The real issue here is how children behave and are taught at home, not at a restaurant. If a family does not sit down together at a regular time each evening and conceive of food and its customs as something to be taken seriously, there is no way they (adults as well as children) will do this outside their home.