The Food Safety and Home Kitchen Hygiene/Sanitation Topic

[weinoo]

That's a throw away, in my opinion. Not worth the potential problems, is it?

[Florida]

If you even have to ask, it needs to get tossed.

[Alex]

As we know, a good guideline is "When in doubt, throw it out," but in this case I'm with emannths. Roasting and stock-making should kill 'em all (the bacteria, not the diners). And it'd been only a few hours past the "OK to leave out" period. Here's a reference.

[xxchef]

The rule in food service is that a perishable food product should not spend more than 4 hours of it's life in the "danger zone" (45-140F). That is a running total for every second of its existence from the time it was killed, milked out, harvested or whatever. That temperature range is where the most bacteria growth can occur. Further cooking may kill most of the bacteria but will not guarantee safety if certain toxins (botulism, for example) have already been produced by the organisms.

Cost/risk/benefit analysis is up to you.

[Crouton]

Hmmmmm, so roasting and boiling for several hours isn't enough to guarantee killing the nasties? If that's the case I guess I'll have to throw it out... damnit.

[kellytree]

It should be fine.

If you leave an egg on the table for an hour in the US you are sure to be killed if you eat it.

In Italy they ask "why the heck would take up space in the fridge for eggs"??)

If you leave a window open at night in Italy you are sure to die (you won't actually die but you will suffer from migranes for the rest of your life.

In the US the response to this would be something like "say what?"

I guess it is all just a point of view of what will kill/harm you.

[Alex]

Hmmmmm, so roasting and boiling for several hours isn't enough to guarantee killing the nasties? If that's the case I guess I'll have to throw it out... damnit.

Yes, it's quite enough. See my post.

[Jaymes]

You can do what I do...

Since one assumes that "room temperature" on a cool November day is likelier cooler than on a hot August day, I'd figure that it's probably fine, with some high-octane boiling.

So I'd begin the process by looking it over well, smelling it, feeling it.

If it looks and smells and feels fine, then I'd boil the fool out of it.

And then take a small taste myself.

If it tastes fine, and a half-hour later, I'm feeling fine, I'd take a bigger taste.

If I'm still feeling fine fifteen minutes later, I'd finish up making my soup and have no qualms whatsoever about serving it to the family.

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Edited November 29, 2010 by Jaymes (log)

[NancyH]

Food left in the "danger zone" (40-140 degrees) can become toxic without any change in appearance, taste or smell. Once food is contaminated with pathogens that naturally arise and multiply when food is in the danger zone, the pathogens decay and form other substances in the food that are more resistant to heat. This is why reheating mishandled food at high temp doesn't work.

As for using yourself as a guinea pig, it can take up to 48 hours for the process to affect your system enough for you to notice symptoms.

When in doubt, throw it out.

[Florida]

Hmmmmm, so roasting and boiling for several hours isn't enough to guarantee killing the nasties? If that's the case I guess I'll have to throw it out... damnit.

Yes, it's quite enough. See my post.

Yes it's enough to kill bacteria themselves, but it does not necessarily destroy the toxins that some bacteria produce.

From the CDC:

The toxins produced by bacteria vary in their sensitivity to heat. The staphylococcal toxin which causes vomiting is not inactivated even if it is boiled. Fortunately' date=' the potent toxin that causes botulism is completely inactivated by boiling.

[/quote']

If the food is already contaminated, then there is nothing that can be done to decontaminate it.

[Qwerty]

Above posters are correct, the bacteria most likely would be killed but not any residual toxins they leave behind.

It's probably not worth it to be honest. More than likely, you would be fine. I've known people that eat part of a pizza, leave it out at room temp all night, then go back in the morning and finish it, to no ill effects.

But, as a victim of true food poisoning (not the "I have a little diarrhea and stomach cramps" but the "holding a bucket sitting on the toilet for about 18 hours straight" kind) I can assure you that, during the darkest hours of the sickness, you would trade your turkey carcass to not feel like that any more. Symptoms can take anywhere from 8-48 hours to appear, so the whole "taste it and see how I feel 30 minutes later" doesn't really fly.

Again, the likelihood is that you would be fine, but why take the chance?

[xxchef]

Hmmmmm, so roasting and boiling for several hours isn't enough to guarantee killing the nasties? If that's the case I guess I'll have to throw it out... damnit.

Yes, it's quite enough. See my post.

Let's be clear. Enough cooking heat + enough time will kill the common bacteria responsible for food-borne illnesses but NOT necessarily effect the toxins or kill the spores produced by the bacteria.

Look at the chart on the page that Alex was good enough to link to in his previous post. The Staphylococcus aureus, Clostridium perfringens, Clostridium botulinum, and Bacillus cereus organisms can all produce toxins or spores that are "heat stable" (can survive cooking).

The spores can then "hatch" post-cooking with new bacteria. The toxins can make you sick outright.

Honestly, if it were just for me I'm not sure I wouldn't use it BUT it would be silly to do so not being fully informed about the risks.

And by-the-way, the "sniff and slime" test just isn't good enough. There are plenty of bad bugs that can make you sick way before they begin to decompose the food they're in enough to notice that way.

[Alex]

Thanks for the bacteria vs. spores/toxins info. Guess I didn't read quite closely enough.

[PopsicleToze]

If you leave an egg on the table for an hour in the US you are sure to be killed if you eat it.

In Italy they ask "why the heck would take up space in the fridge for eggs"??)

I guess it is all just a point of view of what will kill/harm you.

There is a reason for US eggs being refrigerated. They are not the same thing because the protective coating around the eggs is removed during the washing process US eggs are required to undergo before being sold.

From Cooks Illustrated:

"In Europe, eggs are frequently kept on the counter. How is this possible? Different processing. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, all eggs sold in U.S. supermarkets must be washed and sanitized before being transported and stored at temperatures no higher than 45 degrees Fahrenheit. They must remain refrigerated to keep existing bacteria from rapidly multiplying and to stop additional bacteria from entering through the shell, made porous because washing removes a protective outer layer called the cuticle. Because eggs sold in the European Union are never washed, they can be stored unrefrigerated in a cool, dry place. But here in the States, don't even think about keeping your eggs out on the counter."

Rhonda

[OliverB]

that turkey pile of bones I'd throw out, but then, I'm not sure what I'd want turkey broth for to begin with, I'm not a big fan of that bird. But if it were chicken I'd throw it out. I did before actually, just because I left the carcass out for a couple of hours after dinner while still being with guests. Not worth any risk, can always make an other chicken or just buy parts to make stock if need be.

As for the egg story, thanks for posting that, I was always wondering about that! When back in Germany I can't find any eggs in a fridge, they sell them off the shelf, while here they're always cold, now I know why!

[emannths]

The Staphylococcus aureus, Clostridium perfringens, Clostridium botulinum, and Bacillus cereus organisms can all produce toxins or spores that are "heat stable" (can survive cooking).

The spores can then "hatch" post-cooking with new bacteria. The toxins can make you sick outright.

Of these, only staph poisoning is a reasonably plausible possibility. C. perfringens doesn't produce a heat-stable toxin, so if the bones are roasted and boiled, it won't cause any damage. C. botulinum only produces toxin in an anaerobic environment, so we don't have to worry about that. The poisoning by B. cereus toxin is associated only with rice products and other starchy foods (infection is associated with meat, but since it's going to be cooked again, that's avoided) [source].

But staph poisoning seems plausible. But that would require 1) that your turkey was infected with staph, 2) that strain of staph was one that produces toxin, and 3) that there was enough time in those 8 hours for the spores to germinate and multiply into enough cells to produce enough toxin to make you sick. I am personally willing to take that risk. Others are not so willing. It's up to you.

[Shalmanese]

6 hours? You're completely fine. The USDA reccomendations are paranoid to a fault. If you got some agar culture, smeared it with a rich colony of every kitchen nasty, left it for the requisite 4 hours at the optimum temperature and then fed the mess to an unsuspecting diner, there is a slight chance they might get food poisoning. If you're talking about turkey bones that are largely sterile, sitting in the open air, the chances of anything happening are less than being hit by lightening.

[Katie Meadow]

Crouton, your original post was yesterday morning. While the merits of turning the poor bird into soup vs turning it into compost have been debated, I hope it isn't still in the oven awaiting its fate. Personally I would have just thrown it in a pot if it was only out at room temp for six hours. But that is based on no scientific consideration whatsoever, just a deep desire for turkey soup. Sixty years of living a not very antiseptic life is my basis for optimism. What did you end up doing?

[ermintrude]

Further cooking may kill most of the bacteria but will not guarantee safety if certain toxins (botulism, for example) have already been produced by the organisms.

Cost/risk/benefit analysis is up to you.

Any botulism toxin will be destroyed if you get the temperature up to 100 degrees centigrade (boiling in stock) for 10 minutes, it won't kill the spores though, but it's the toxin you need to worry about. Also botulisum pefers anerobic conditions so it's unlikely. Also that temp will kill of any of the other nasties there BUT it will not destroy toxins from bugs like Staphylococcus, but these would have been killed by the first cooking, so recontamination would have needed to occur. Since already cooked and only at room temp for 6 hours and in a closed oven - I'd make that stock (for home use only of course - and not recomending it but I've made stock several times from a carcus left overnight in the oven and and I'm still here)

[xxchef]

Any botulism toxin will be destroyed if you get the temperature up to 100 degrees centigrade (boiling in stock) for 10 minutes, it won't kill the spores though, but it's the toxin you need to worry about...

Well, that's another thing to consider..

If you're not nearly at or below sea level it's hard to get that stock up to 100C (212F) without a pressure cooker. We're at almost 6000 feet elevation and our water boils at about 198F (92c), depending on barometric pressure etc. Drives the Dept of Ag inspectors absolutely crazy when they come to calibrate our pasteurizer thermometers.

According to most references I've seen, it requires about 30 minutes at 198F to have the same effect as 5 minutes at 212F.

Food for thought/grist for the mill.

[Crouton]

I ended up throwing it out... and I'm the type of person to eat pizza that's been left out all night, but when it comes to an actual carcass...well, I was a little hesitant. It may have been fine but I just wasn't up for the risk. I think I'm going to pick up some turkey wings and make stock over the weekend. It's much more flavorful than chicken stock in my opinion.

[Jaymes]

I ended up throwing it out... and I'm the type of person to eat pizza that's been left out all night, but when it comes to an actual carcass...well, I was a little hesitant. It may have been fine but I just wasn't up for the risk. I think I'm going to pick up some turkey wings and make stock over the weekend. It's much more flavorful than chicken stock in my opinion.

The only thing in this particular scenario that would have given me the slightest moment's hesitation is that you put it back into the oven.

Which well might have still held enough residual heat that it would have been warmer than room temp.

So all in all, probably just as well you tossed it.

And thanks for getting back with us.

When we hadn't heard anything for several days...

Well...

You know.

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Edited December 1, 2010 by Jaymes (log)

[Willspear]

It depends on how worried about stuff you are

shoot my grandmother used to thaw turkeys at room temp over a day or 2 and we all survived. I have eaten organ mean stored at 100 degrees in a street market for god knows how long.

at the end of the day everything in life is a risk you just need to pick what your acceptable level is. Just like BP did and the freak chance of failure bit them and they dumped oil for months in the ocean.

Id probably have it at home just saying but I wouldnt serve in from a restaurant kitchen.

[NancyH]

Willspear - the instructors in both of my food safety courses pointed out that the bugs have evolved a lot since our grandparents' day. I forgot the exact numbers, but it used to take several thousand Sallmonella bugs to make you sick - now only a few can cause severe food poisoning (and I think they generate toxins much faster than their ancestors did also). Same with E. Coli and many of the others; Listeria and Camphylobacter were virtually unknown back then.

[MikeMac]

Beef - Mechanical tenderizing not seen as health risk by the Public Health Agency of Canada

Background large meat packing company in Alberta was shipping contaminated meat. The issue was further compounded by retail stores mechanically tenderizing cuts then selling them with out any indication to the consumer they had been mechanically tenderized and according to the Public Health Agency of Canada now needed to be cooked to 160 degrees F.

Their may be new signage requirements when meat is mechanically tenderized.

I will leave it to more knowledgeable people than my self to determine what the actual safe cooking time and temperatures are using different cooking techniques such as sous vide but I wanted this to be a area of discussion