Rick Bayless and Burger King - Part 1

[tommy]

Tommy -- If you don't know anything about the Chef's Collaborative, then you have not been following the points that most people here have been making, not bothered to follow the links to it to find out.

actually, i have and did. i knew nothing before a little while ago, and nothing comparatively to the people who are clearly upset by this.

i haven't seen anyone use "fanatic", with the exception of me. and i never labeled that nice group "fanatical". you did not bother to read my post, but perhaps bothered to read into it.

and you used "fourth" twice, so you actually have an extra point in there.

Edited October 6, 2003 by tommy (log)

[SWoodyWhite]

Is it possible that BK fed a custom-made sandwich to Rick Bayless when they asked his opinion? I don't know how these things work. I would assume that would be illegal, and I wouldn't put it past any corporate marketing department.

All I know is the sandwich I bought didn't look like it contained 1/3 the chicken and filling as the ones in the ads.

I seriously doubt that Mr. Bayless would give his endorsement based on a single sandwich. In fact, I find that sort of question absurd. The man is a professional chef who has explored the cuisine of a country other than his own; this shows a sense of curiosity as to ingredients and preparation technique. In fact, since he has been marketing his own line of salsas and other foodstuffs for several years and is the author of several cookbooks and the host of an ongoing television series about cooking, he more than many others in his field would know how marketing is done. It would take more than waving a single sandwich under his nose to get him to endorse any product.

Further, he is being shown in commercials for said sandwich, taking a first bite out of one. I don't know how knowledgeable you are about the filming of commercials, but they never settle for just one take of a shot. The process requires dozens of takes, to make sure that the finished product contains the exact positioning of the performer and the product within the picture, and that the vocal inflections are exactly correct. This means that, for Mr. Bayless to be taking a first bite out of the sandwich, they would have to have dozens of sandwiches on hand, one for each take. Are the sandwiches "custom-made" for the commercials? Of course they are.

But so what? The photos taken of food that fill the weekly Food sections in newspapers we read are taken to make sure that the food looks as appetizing as possible, and the similar photos that fill our magazines are even more "posed." For that matter, your own Senior Class photo was no doubt one of several taken in a special session, for which you had specially primped and dressed. The only time any of us get our pictures taken with no interest in getting us to look our best is at the DMV.

[tommy]

The process requires dozens of takes, to make sure that the finished product contains the exact positioning of the performer and the product within the picture, and that the vocal inflections are exactly correct.

vocals are generally fixed post-production, or after the fact. all of those heart-felt "mmmmm"'s.

my friend was a child actor. he was in a commerical for a hamburger chain. that was about 35 years ago, and he hasn't had a fast food hamburger since, and doesn't eat many hamburgers at all. he says he ate about 50 that day. poor bastard.

Edited October 6, 2003 by tommy (log)

[elyse]

He should have used the spit bucket.

[tommy]

He should have used the spit bucket.

he did. i don't know if you ever had 80 bites of cold fast food hamburgers, made hours beforehand, over the course of 3 hours and spit every bite out, but from what i understand, it'll turn you off.

Edited October 6, 2003 by tommy (log)

[elyse]

No, but I shall have to try that soon.

[tommy]

No, but I shall have to try that soon.

you could probably get through the whole Burger Club in 1 day with this approach.

again, i don't recommend it.

[elyse]

[Richard Kilgore]

How has this thread degenerated into a debate about "food fundamentalism" vs. "food relavitism"? Why would you think that high profile advocacy of any set of values would not carry with it certain behavioral expectations by the public (see my lawyer and doctor examples above)? The people you are calling fundmentalists here have by and large been upset or even outraged, but have not shown disrespect for other people's beliefs. But why would you expect that people with the same values RB espouses would not come to look at him differently because of the ads?

Many people in this field and others develop their name into a carefully constructed brand, which may or may not be a reflection of the individual. When you do something that doesn't fit with the brand image, something is going to change. It doesn't mean that you may not make a lot of money with the change, but things will change. Hard to imagine that he has not thought this through and made a conscious decision to go a different direction in order to trade on his brand name, although that is possible, since people shoot themselves in the career foot all the time. No way to know.

Woody --- you sound like you are arguing with yourself. Are you seriously arguing that it RB knew what the real sandwich would be and it was going to have about 20% of the vegetetables in the ads?" And this is a good thing?

[tommy]

Why would you think that high profile advocacy of any set of values would not carry with it certain behavioral expectations by the public (see my lawyer and doctor examples above)?

judges who take bribes; doctors who write prescriptions for addicts

those are certainly unethical. but by just about everyone's standards. illegal probably, too.

[tanabutler]

SWoodyWhite, I know enough about making commercials to know that it's exceedingly difficult to work with food. Being a food photographer myself (despite my cruddy photos of the burn victim sandwich I posted upthread), I am aware of the difficulties of many aspects of photographing items that melt, cool down, warm up, dry out, and so on. I am aware, as a suspicious consumer, of the various tricks that marketing departments use to make atrocious things look appetizing.

My question is not specific to the commercial, but to the sandwich(es) Bayless consumed before he agreed to make the commercial. Was that sandwich like the one I was served—flat and certainly containing less than half of the meat/ingredients that bulge out of the photographs on the BK website? Or did they make up a special, trumped-up sandwich for him, bursting with meat and veggies especially prepared for him? All "cheffed up," so to speak? I am seriously curious about the process.

I am also curious how it came down. Did BK send a communiqué saying, "We've made a Better Sandwich. Would you taste it?" Or did they say, "We've made a better sandwich and we want to pay you gigantor dollars to say it's good"? If the former, and he tasted it and said, "Gee, it doesn't suck," and then BK offered money, that would be one thing. It wouldn't be the worst thing. If the latter (and who knows?), then it's an entirely different thing. And either way, I am extremely curious. I am always curious about the grey areas of moral issues, and this is a moral issue.

How can you know how many sandwiches he consumed, or what the circumstances were? You sound like his lawyer to me.

The bottom line for me is that Burger King is, with the development of a line of low-fat (high sodium) sandwiches, not worthy of the endorsement of a chef with such a spectacular reputation for FLSO (fresh, local, seasonal, organic), or of Bayless's spectacular reputation, period. Again, I am not a food purist, and I don't care if he eats at Burger King ten times a week. What I dispute is the conflict of interests between being affiliated with the highly respected, perhaps visionary Chefs Collaborative, and endorsing mass-produced sandwiches of questionable nutritional value, high sodium content, and non-local, non-organic, non-seasonal, and pre-packaged ingredients.

For me, of all the points made in this thread, I think Fat Guy's is the most cogent—the one that you can sell your reputation but then you can't keep it.

I don't think Rick Bayless is laughing all the way to the bank. I am equally sure he's a great guy. Great guys make mistakes, too.

But what I think doesn't really matter. I don't belong to the Chefs Collaborative. I hope they are wildly successful in achieving their vision, because it's a worthy one.

[Richard Kilgore]

Yes unethical, and in these instances illegal, too. But that was not my point, of course. It was that if you set yourself up as a standard bearer for a set of values people are going to have some behavioral expectations of you. Since you and I are not members of the Chef's Collaborative and do not necesarily ascribe to those values, we would not necessarily have the same expectations of RB that his peers do (and his fans who share the same ideals). But some kind of behavioral expectations go with most ideals. And it's not that a "fallen" person can not recover. I would bet my best cast iron skillet that if RB decides he really doesn't like the effect of his endorsement on his reputation or his career (not saying that is the case), he can do even a partial mea culpa and all will be well with the local-sustainable culinary world within a year.

Nothing "morally" wrong with branding chips and salsa, or canned and frozen foods for that matter, but you just can't easily cram antithetical disparate images into one brand name and not have it crack a little and pay a price.

[tommy]

all i know is that it's a tasty enough little sandwich from the Home of the Whopper. ®

[Fat Guy]

I finally saw the commercial tonight. It ran during Alias. I don't know which was more uncomfortable: the moment when Sydney met Vaughn's wife, or the Bayless commercial.

A couple of minor points:

Tana, regarding the question of "the sandwich(es) Bayless consumed before he agreed to make the commercial," who gives a shit? I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

And Woody, although I hear your point regarding tone, I can hardly think of anything that would bother me less than being blacklisted by the unholy trinity of Chef's Collaborative, Rick Bayless, and Burger King!

[SWoodyWhite]

But Syd's earlier line, "Who let you in?", was priceless.

[MatthewB]

How has this thread degenerated into a debate about "food fundamentalism" vs. "food relavitism"?

I hardly think my invocation of fundamentalism degenerated this thread. I think the degeneration may have occurred much much earlier.

A couple of points . . .

First, I haven't seen anyone mention--let alone defend--relativism in this thread until you mentioned it in your question that I've quoted. (And I hardly think that the opposite of fundamentalism is relativism.)

Second, my point is that Rick Bayless is being held to certain norms concerning food & its uses. What I haven't seen is a switch from the actual norms that Mr. Bayless espouses to a cogent rationale for the application of said norms. Once again, norms & the application of norms of two quite different things.

Of course, none of the above may matter. Perhaps this thread is simply self-reflexive & somehow therapeutic for those who feel betrayed.

[tanabutler]

Well, look what I received this morning via e-mail. I wrote her (and others at Chefs Collaborative) on September 20. She just wrote back.

----------

From: Nancy Civetta

Date: Mon Oct 6, 2003 8:14:02 AM US/Pacific

To: Tana Butler

Subject: Re: Burger King endorsements from Rick Bayless?

Dear Tana,

Please excuse my delay in responding. I was collecting the facts and

speaking with the Chefs Collaborative board. Below is a letter from Rick

Bayless that his office requested I send you. I am sure that you will

eventually be hearing back from Chefs Collaborative directly, but wanted to

at least let you hear from Rick himself why he chose to do this. Thanks for

your interest in and support of Chefs Collaborative.

Sincerely,

Nancy Civetta

--------------

Thursday, September 18, 2003

Dear friends and co-workers:

Knowing my dedication to honest, authentic flavors and healthy food,

acquaintances at Burger King asked me to taste a new trio of sandwiches

they’re about to offer in their 8,000 restaurants. Sandwiches that feature

grilled chicken breast, a crusty baguette-like roll that’s finish-baked

several times daily on premises, and (in the case of the Santa Fe Grilled

Chicken Baguette sandwich they wanted my comments on) a smooth “salsa” made

with roasted tomatoes and roasted poblano chiles plus a chunky topping of

roasted peppers and onions.

I am genuinely impressed with the honesty of flavor and texture in the

salsa, the diversity of ingredients (when’s the last time you saw poblano

chiles on a fast-food menu?), the freshness of the roasted peppers and

onions (they are delivered fresh to each restaurant—not frozen), and the

crispy integrity of the bread’s crust. I found the flame-grilled flavor

satisfying and the portion-size on target—especially for every-day eating.

On target, too, are the 350 calories and 5 grams of fat in each sandwich.

Honestly, up until now, I’ve found very few options for a decent quick meal

when I’m away from my home or restaurant—and I find myself in need of one

from time to time like everyone. I’d stopped even considering fast food

restaurants ages ago as a source for anything that approaches hot, healthy,

honest and satisfying.

But now I want to I applaud the folks at Burger King for taking steps toward

changing that. Sure, I’d like to see them use organically grown vegetables

in the sauce and roasted pepper topping. Sure, I’d like to see the grilled

chicken breast seem less processed (though I’ll admit there’s a noticeably

less-processed overall taste to the sandwich). None of that negates,

however, the fact that the folks at Burger King are taking positive steps.

Who knows, maybe this is just the beginning. Maybe my dream of organic

options in fast food isn’t that far off.

I’ve decided to sign on to do a commercial for the new Burger King

sandwiches. That doesn’t mean I’ve changed any part of our strong Frontera

Mission—only chosen to highlight our dedication to inclusivity, to applaud

positive steps toward a healthier food supply wherever we see them. Our

restaurants will still be the bastion of local, seasonal, sustainably raised

food hand-crafted by some of our nation’s best artisan chefs. I’ll still

continue to be a strong voice for authentic flavors, for understanding

cultural diversity through food, and for the importance of preparing and

sharing food around the family table.

Sincerely,

Rick Bayless

[ronnie_suburban]

Via his letter, RB sounds more like a (possibly misguided) visionary than a sell-out to me.

Of course I am, on occasion, susceptible to spin.

=R=

[TarteTatin]

I've been following this thread over the last several days and hearing a number of people talk about 'sometimes needing' to go into a fast food place. Sorry guys and girls, call me a purist, call me a food fundamentalist, call me crazy (call me a cab and get me outta here! Ba dump bump!) but I've yet to not be able to find a market, buy some bread, a piece of cheese, a hunk of salami and some fruit. That'll do for lunch or dinner.

Now as to Rick Bayless: I haven't been a fan or a follower and buy Frontera Salsas cause I like them. I'm not going to stop buying them because he's shilling for Burger King until he sells the brand to BK. I think, despite the contents of the letter just posted, what he did puts him in a bad place ethically.

Just my two cents.

[tommy]

I've been following this thread over the last several days and hearing a number of people talk about 'sometimes needing' to go into a fast food place. Sorry guys and girls, call me a purist, call me a food fundamentalist, call me crazy (call me a cab and get me outta here! Ba dump bump!) but I've yet to not be able to find a market, buy some bread, a piece of cheese, a hunk of salami and some fruit. That'll do for lunch or dinner.

sorry, but not everyone has the time.

you may be even more special than you think.

[elyse]

I agree. Plus, there are tastes you can get from fast food places that you just can't recreate at home. Kentucky Fried Chicken is mine.

[Toliver]

tanabutler,

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

It's interesting to see, again, RB is pointing out the "healthy" aspects of this sodium bomb of a sandwich.

He has high hope for the future. Unfortunately, it's not realistic. The marriage of High Volume Fast Food and "organic options" isn't likely due to the prohibitive cost of organic anything.

[tommy]

I agree.

i never thought i'd live to see the day.

tana, thanks for sharing that. sounds like something we all expected, and, of course, to someone like me it sounds completely reasonable.

i'm wondering what his associates at CC think about it, however. my guess is, they don't care, and see it as a load of crap.

Edited October 6, 2003 by tommy (log)

[jhlurie]

I've been following this thread over the last several days and hearing a number of people talk about 'sometimes needing' to go into a fast food place. Sorry guys and girls, call me a purist, call me a food fundamentalist, call me crazy (call me a cab and get me outta here! Ba dump bump!) but I've yet to not be able to find a market, buy some bread, a piece of cheese, a hunk of salami and some fruit. That'll do for lunch or dinner.

sorry, but not everyone has the time.

you may be even more special than you think.

Be nice kiddies.

I can understand casting@philacast.com's position even while at the same time thinking it might be a crazy and unrealistic standard to adhere to. I've been in plenty of hick towns hick enough to not have decent fresh bread, salami other than by Hormel, and little or no cheese other than Velveeta or Polly-O.

If I recall right, Steven Shaw claims he can find a Subway or Blimpie in almost any town in an emergency. I'm not even so sure of that.

[hjshorter]

I've been following this thread over the last several days and hearing a number of people talk about 'sometimes needing' to go into a fast food place. Sorry guys and girls, call me a purist, call me a food fundamentalist, call me crazy (call me a cab and get me outta here! Ba dump bump!) but I've yet to not be able to find a market, buy some bread, a piece of cheese, a hunk of salami and some fruit. That'll do for lunch or dinner.

sorry, but not everyone has the time.

Or the desire to unload both kids from their carseats and into the stroller, then back again once lunch is purchased, then steer said stroller while balancing a bag or two and drinks. When I'm out running errands it's nice to be able to get a sandwich without leaving the car, especially when it's raining.