Friends/Relatives' imposed food conditions

madziast · August 25, 2003

ppl's weird eating habits don't faze me much (hell, i have them too) but ppl who are asked to bring a bottle of wine/dessert wine to dinner and show up with a small baggie of chips ahoy don't get invited back. ditto for those showing up with an airline-size bottles of vodka.

madziast · August 25, 2003

But seriously, when I am on the 'guest end' of this equation, I'd never give any instructions to my hosts. That's why I have the same expectation when I am the host. I do accomodate and I'm often happy to do it (*whispers* we have vegetarians in my family) but I'd never make any special requests of a person who is inviting me over and doing a lot of work already to make it happen.
=R=

ron, what kind of utopian world do you live in? the fact that you don't make any demands will not stop others...

ronnie_suburban · August 25, 2003

But seriously, when I am on the 'guest end' of this equation, I'd never give any instructions to my hosts. That's why I have the same expectation when I am the host. I do accomodate and I'm often happy to do it (*whispers* we have vegetarians in my family) but I'd never make any special requests of a person who is inviting me over and doing a lot of work already to make it happen.
=R=
ron, what kind of utopian world do you live in? the fact that you don't make any demands will not stop others...

:biggrin: Well...a boy can dream, can't he?

Seriously though, I really don't have problems with guests...guests are voluntary and are easily dispatched (in the future) if they are problematic. I have problems with family dining at my house. They will keep coming back even if they experience eternal disappointment in what you cook for them. It's this kind of 'repeat business' that feels thankless and beyond Sisyphean.

And in my family, if I don't host, the others will invariably try to 'host' at a restauant. I'm sorry, I love restaurants, but not for family gatherings and/or important holidays. What's that line...? the only thing my mother knows how to make for dinner is reservations. That pretty much sums it up.

=R=

madziast · August 25, 2003

I see it alot with my non-European friends where they tell their children/guests that they'll eat what's on the table, or not at all. Whereas Europeans tend to bend over backwards to make whatever their kids/guests wants to eat -- even if it's not the menu.
Really?! That's not been my observation. Rather quite the opposite.

i agree. having grown up in europe, i always ate what was offered, without substitutions. also, although children may havwe eaten at a separate table (yes, kids' table), we were served the same food as adults, not kiddie food (e.g. pasta with butter and/or parmigiano). no kids' menus at restaurants either. also, as children, we were taught how to use proper utensils and how to use them properly. and how to eat certain dishes (e.g. unfiletted fish). none of the "cut up all your food on a plate and eat it with your fist wrapped around the fork." i think that's the most surprising thing for me in terms of eating out in the US, even at 4-star restaurants I see ppl eating in a way only children under 3 would be allowed. as children, my brother and i were offered champagne when we asked to partake in new year's celebrations. we hated it, added sugar and poured it into the toilet. must have been around 12.

for the record, my mother was a single mother of 2 and a teacher, we were relatively poor; hardly a snooty background.

tommy · August 25, 2003

I have actually made my world famous lasagna, by request, only to be questioned as I pull it out of the oven: "Did you use the lowfat cheese?"

the answer in that situation, of course, is "oh yes of course."
I disagree. The answer is: "You asked for MY lasagna, right?"

i suppose if you don't mind pissing people off right before dinner to make a point then yeah, yours is a super-duper answer.

Savour Chef · August 25, 2003

I see it alot with my non-European friends where they tell their children/guests that they'll eat what's on the table, or not at all. Whereas Europeans tend to bend over backwards to make whatever their kids/guests wants to eat -- even if it's not the menu.
Really?! That's not been my observation. Rather quite the opposite.
i agree. having grown up in europe, i always ate what was offered, without substitutions. also, although children may havwe eaten at a separate table (yes, kids' table), we were served the same food as adults, not kiddie food (e.g. pasta with butter and/or parmigiano). no kids' menus at restaurants either. also, as children, we were taught how to use proper utensils and how to use them properly. and how to eat certain dishes (e.g. unfiletted fish). none of the "cut up all your food on a plate and eat it with your fist wrapped around the fork." i think that's the most surprising thing for me in terms of eating out in the US, even at 4-star restaurants I see ppl eating in a way only children under 3 would be allowed. as children, my brother and i were offered champagne when we asked to partake in new year's celebrations. we hated it, added sugar and poured it into the toilet. must have been around 12.
for the record, my mother was a single mother of 2 and a teacher, we were relatively poor; hardly a snooty background.

I hope I don't confuse the issue any further, but what I was trying to explain was not that the Europeans make chicken fingers as a substitue for their children when they won't eat the food that's been cooked - but that Europeans, and I am one, accommodate their children's and guests food demands in a much more matter of fact manner. As in, it never occurs to them to NOT give their guests what they want - even if it means whipping up something not originally planned.

If an Italian made spaghetti carbonara and their guest didn't want/enjoy it, the Italian would most likely make either a plain pasta with, as you suggested, just parmigiano on it, ie. making it a "tamer" version of their original meal. As a whole, it actually PLEASES the Europeans to accommodate requests as it makes them feel like they are giving their guests the best possible experience.

The issue of European kids drinking at a young age or eating "adult" food, is not really the issue here.

madziast · August 25, 2003

Seriously though, I really don't have problems with guests...guests are voluntary and are easily dispatched (in the future) if they are problematic. I have problems with family dining at my house. They will keep coming back even if they experience eternal disappointment in what you cook for them. It's this kind of 'repeat business' that feels thankless and beyond Sisyphean.
And in my family, if I don't host, the others will invariably try to 'host' at a restauant. I'm sorry, I love restaurants, but not for family gatherings and/or important holidays. What's that line...? the only thing my mother knows how to make for dinner is reservations. That pretty much sums it up.
=R=

ah, yes, the distinction btwn family and friends. explains a lot. but the family is there to get on your nerves, non? i always tell them they can have a sandwich... but even my mother, with her myriad stomach problems (relfux, indigestion, no fat, etc.), managed to enjoy meals at San Domenico, Firebird, Atlas, etc. plus Paris restaurants at Xmas (foie gras left and right). she just took her pills, laid off most of the foie gras, wine and cheese, and proceeded cautiously with the dessert (except for the bottomless bowl of chocolate mousse at L'Ambassade d'Auvergne).

FoodMan · August 25, 2003

I know you're just venting here and all.....
Bingo!
But seriously, when I am on the 'guest end' of this equation, I'd never give any instructions to my hosts. That's why I have the same expectation when I am the host. I do accomodate and I'm often happy to do it (*whispers* we have vegetarians in my family) but I'd never make any special requests of a person who is inviting me over and doing a lot of work already to make it happen.
=R=

My point exactly, I was just VENTING and I usually always end up making the rice while making it clear that it is especially made for my FIL :smile: .

Related question. Does family, esp when you see them regularly, count as "guests" in this context?

No not really, when I asked my FIL if he would request rice with Lasagna at a restaurant, he said "but we are at HOME not a restaurant we are family now and you know I want rice with everything".

Honestly though, this is a very interesting thread that is fun to read and my rice "problem" seems to be nothing compared to the others' isuues ...FAT FREE CHEESE..ARGHHHHHHHHH...no way.

Well on another note my MIL does not like fish, but that's a different story :smile: .

FM

madziast · August 25, 2003

Europeans, and I am one, accommodate their children's and guests food demands in a much more matter of fact manner. As in, it never occurs to them to NOT give their guests what they want - even if it means whipping up something not originally planned.
If an Italian made spaghetti carbonara and their guest didn't want/enjoy it, the Italian would most likely make either a plain pasta with, as you suggested, just parmigiano on it, ie. making it a "tamer" version of their original meal. As a whole, it actually PLEASES the Europeans to accommodate requests as it makes them feel like they are giving their guests the best possible experience.

definitely right. it's very important to give guests what they like, even if it wasn't originally planned. going extra mile for guests is perfectly normal--you want them to have a good time. "guest home--god home."

Jonathan Day · August 25, 2003

It's tough to generalise about "Europeans".

I know a number of French people who would sooner die than criticise or carp at any morsel of food placed on their plate. We had a 13 year old from one of these families visiting us last summer, and I am sure I could have served him a plate of gravel. He would have crunched through it, then thanked me through broken teeth.

Yet more recently, a French woman at a private dinner proceeded to instruct her host and the other guests, in loud tones, in just how the food should have been cooked and served, and what was to be done the next time around.

I have seen Italians stubbornly refuse requests from guests (e.g. milk in after dinner coffee) because "that isn't good."

One thing I struggle with, as a host, are guests who simply refuse to eat certain foods without specific sauces, usually bottled, that they have grown accustomed to: "I just can't eat lamb without mint jelly. I must have tomato sauce (ketchup) on roast meat, or I can't eat it. I don't care if this is risotto, rice needs soya sauce." Etc.

I get this more often from Americans and Australians, but I can imagine Europeans doing the same thing.

Katherine · August 25, 2003

"I don't care if this is risotto, rice needs soya sauce."

Barbarians.

Jinmyo · August 26, 2003

"I don't care if this is risotto, rice needs soya sauce."
Barbarians.

Yes. Actually, soaking rice with soy sauce is barbaric let alone risotto.

Meals with families almost always involve horrid food. So one either does the dreaded deed (eating it or cooking it) or one doesn't. I don't. Or I should say did for a time, and then didn't.

Now they're all dead or so far away I only have to reply to an occasional email. :smile:

Except with my grown kids who when they visit are more than eager to learn about new foods and how to do this or that. So I will bring everything down about 80% to show them something delicious, cheap, easy, nutritious that they can do and then use a basis to eventually develop upwards. No butter-poached lobster tail on daikon sprouts atop parsnip mash with chile oil. Instead, frozen boneless perch poached in a quick kimchi soup with roasted parsnip losenges. That kind of thing.

WHT · August 26, 2003

I will take minor requests on menu changes for my guests. Providing they do not interfere with the main dish and how it is cooked. If you don’t like an item, please don’t take it. If you are allergic to something I will advise you of the ingredients but the risk is to the guest at that point.

I would never invite a friend with religious dietary restrictions to a pork-based meal. That would be rude on my part. The same thing for vegetarians but I will make small accommodations. Since I post a menu connected with the invitation it is on the guest to make the prudent decision. I would never think of making demands on my host and expect the same. People that gripe over ingredients in a meal may not be asked back.

I had some friends over for diner and the guest of honor was allergic to Nightshades and I planned accordingly. If you don’t like mushrooms I’ll see what I can do but…

snowangel · August 26, 2003

Unless the request is based on allergy, religious or vegetarian considerations, they eat what I serve. Because I'm the mom, that's why. Love it or leave it or at least don't bitch about it. I chose many years ago not to be a short order cook.

Go back to JAZ's daily e-gullet article about the thoughtful guest.

WHT · August 26, 2003

Unless the request is based on allergy, religious or vegetarian considerations, they eat what I serve. Because I'm the mom, that's why. Love it or leave it or at least don't bitch about it. I chose many years ago not to be a short order cook.
Go back to JAZ's daily e-gullet article about the thoughtful guest.

Wow, I wish I was a MOM. That gives it better weight. Point well stated.

We should anticipate certain guest needs and be gracious host/ess. Being a door matt is not in the equation. That is why I do buffets for the most part. If you don’t want it don’t take it.

tommy · August 26, 2003

Unless the request is based on allergy, religious or vegetarian considerations, they eat what I serve. Because I'm the mom, that's why. Love it or leave it or at least don't bitch about it. I chose many years ago not to be a short order cook.

i wish i were the mom. but i'm not. i'm just the guy who cooks for friends. and if i piss them off as i'm cooking, i can guarantee that they won't pay for the pinball and pool after dinner. and i just don't want that to happen. so i'll lead them to believe that they are getting what they want, all the time while giving them something better, and ensuring that they pay for the pinball and pool games afterwards. oh yes, i am one manipulative eff.

Blondie · August 26, 2003

Food Fight: Granny Killed in Fight over Rice

torakris · August 26, 2003

Food Fight: Granny Killed in Fight over Rice

I will make sure to always have rice on my table from now on! :laugh:

Callipygos · August 26, 2003

See, I make it a point of pride to consider my guests' preferences BEFORE I plan the menu. Or, I provide a lot of choices that can accomodate any food quirks, be it vegitarianism, allergies, or just simply "I don't like mushrooms".

After all, these people are my friends and family. They are different from me, but that's why I like them. I care about them. And part of caring about them, I thought, is respecting their food preferences. So some of them may be weird? Who cares? They probably think some of my food choices are weird but they love me anyway.

If you have relatives who are on a fat-restricted diet, why are you making your lasagna for them anyway? If they ask for it, why not just tell them, "well, it really doesn't work with fat-free cheese, are you sure you still want me to make it?"

I know people are just venting, but if you wanted a meal to satisfy YOU, then you should have eaten alone. Sorry.

And, I also know that there are indeed times when you try everything to accomodate guests and they still are difficult. The guests ain't perfect either sometimes.

Edited August 26, 2003 by Callipygos (log)

Busboy · August 26, 2003

Assuming one's guests aren't simply oafish or genuinely unreasonable, it usually seems easy enough to cook a meal that can, with minor adjustments, accommodate unusual or even rediculous requests. Why get indigestion before the meal raging about soy sauce on risotto? Ick, but so what? Throw a little low-fat cheese on one corner of the lasagne. It doesn't take any more work, and there will be some "overlap, but and everyone's happy. I have a vegetarian friend who eats at my house a couple of times a month, and when she's over mixing with the omnivors, I just cook something for dinner that can fo with either meat or, say grilled mushrooms or some simple substitute -- hell, I'm already in the kitchen or at the grill, the marginal labor involved is negligible.

The first imperative if to serve a gracious meal, to create a moment that is ultimately going to be fun or special or romantic not merely because of the food, but because of the pleasure people take in eating it. It's not to show off one's kitchen skills or command of dining regulation.

fendel · September 2, 2003

Some conditions I can handle. I have a friend with a bit of a seafood phobia who can't eat something with any fish derivatives in it (except tuna, oddly). If I make beef stew I put away the Worcestershire before she arrives. If I make Thai curry, I go light on the fish sauce or skip it altogether. She also has this thing about raw eggs--I made the mistake of serving her homemade chocolate mousse once and muttering to myself about "better beat the egg whites longer next time." She went pale and wordlessly gave the rest of her dish to her friend.

I also can't cook mushrooms if she's there, unless they're in a separate dish that she can avoid entirely.

She's better at voicing her needs than I am, I think. Once I was over at her place and dinner consisted of mac'n'cheese with tuna in it, and I have this deep aversion to hot tuna. I managed to hold my breath and swallow a few bites. While clearing away dishes afterward, I asked, sheepishly, if next time I could grab some of the mac'n'cheese before the tuna went in...

Luckily nobody has asked me for low-fat food. That's where I draw the line. My standard repertoire actually leans more toward low-carb, though I'm willing to make a starch side dish for guests. The last thing I want to do is put out an entree that's all carbs and no fat, because (a) it won't be worth eating and (b) it'll torpedo my own diet without even providing some pleasure in return. No way. If I ever get guests who are into that, we'll just have to go to a restaurant.

Exotic Mushroom · September 2, 2003

My best friend keeps kosher, which I respect, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't frustrate me. He will often come over for dinner like four nights a week, and is present at almost any dinner party I throw. No meat and dairy in the same meal, no seafood ever, no pork...it starts to feel pretty limiting.

When I go home to visit my parents, my mother's sister comes over for at least half of our meals, and she can't have any dairy products at all. Again, I know she can't help her allergy, but it still irritates me to no end.

browniebaker · September 2, 2003

This thread reminded me of a short-lived friendship I had several years ago with a woman who, when I invited her and her toddler over for a playdate for the first time and asked whether there were any foods they could not eat, told me that she and her toddler eat only pizza or turkey sandwiches for lunch, nothing else, and the pizza had to be store-bought, and they would drink only bottled water. I soon found that her severe food restrictions was one manifestation of a very controlling personality that made it very hard to be her friend.

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