My adventures with pastries (and sometimes savoury stuff)

[PetarG]

So the concept of this thread is going to be basically me posting what I've baked in an effort to document what worked, what did not etc. I am an enthusiast in baking and am very much interested in the processes that happen in the background when making pastries. My ultimate goal is to be able to adjust and create new recipes without the need to consult recipes online, and to understand what exactly the role of each ingredient is, what happens when the ratios are changed etc.

 

I was given the go-ahead from the powers that be (mods). I hope those that read the thread can chime in with advice or potentially avoid a pitfall.

 

So for a beginning, I am currently trying to get a solid base in cookies, and as a starting point took the 3-2-1 ratio shortbread, mostly because that's what the Ruhlman's book suggests. On the day 1, I made a mistake of not creaming butter enough, and when I added the orange zest and egg, the mixture was not creamy, and instead butter looked lumpy (picture not shown). I topped these cookies with toasted almonds and brazilian nuts, gluing them to the cookie with a simple glaze.

 

The cookie was not crumbly, but had a bit of a chew. Not unpleasant mind you! The highlight really were the nuts and the orange flavor. The cookies were good enough to share with colleagues after a 12-km run, which was well recieved. This was a happy little accident, but unexpected, which is not what I want - I want control. Still, I will note it.

 

[PetarG]

I think I figured out this creaming thing, and it purpose is clear - beating the butter with sugar creates small pockets of air which expand when heated, leavening the cookie. After the cookie bakes, the cookie structure should harden, and the cookie is crumbly but light.

 

The second try was even simpler - just the 3-2-1 shortbread with a dash of vanilla. Made a small mistake when forming the log - did not press the dough hard enough, which made cutting the log harder, as some slices split in half. Also, I have to work on making the slices more uniform as some cook faster than other. Still, the result was surprisingly good - a crisp, crumbly cookie which nonetheless held itself together. Sometimes a stray grain of salt would hit my tongue, which was a nice contrast.

 

I am very pleased with this cookie, and declare it the 'default' from now on. Will probably try adding spices, lemon zest and other mixins - thinking of cardamom and lemon.

 

[weinoo]

23 minutes ago, PetarG said:

My ultimate goal is to be able to adjust and create new recipes without the need to consult recipes online, and to understand what exactly the role of each ingredient is, what happens when the ratios are changed etc.

 

A question - what books have you read about these processes?

 

And can you tell us what equipment you're using; e.g. what type of oven are you using, cookie sheets, baking sheets, etc.

[rotuts]

@PetarG

 

I hope you were able to fine the Bakewise book  ( Corriher  

 

referenced in another baking thread.

 

her charts of change and effect are similar to what you are trying to learn to do

 

 

[rotuts]

for review purposes , here are a few tables from Cookwiaw

 

https://www.amazon.com/CookWise-Successful-Cooking-Secrets-Revealed/dp/0688102298/ref=sr_1_1?crid=BG4W8AHHOA5S&keywords=cookwise&qid=1707006585&sprefix=cookwise%2Caps%2C117&sr=8-1

 

 

 

 

 

the book has far more detail and explanation that support the above summary 

 

there are very few cookbooks like Corriher's  .

[gfweb]

Before @rotuts says it...keep a detailed notebook.

 

Less critical is the cover color...red is best.

[PetarG]

7 hours ago, weinoo said:

A question - what books have you read about these processes?

 

I have several books (in pdf format, although I'd like to have physical copies). Not enough time to read them all with trying to finish my studies but I'll get there, it's a process. So far I've got:

• Ratio by Ruhlman - read extensively, and has served me well thus far
• King Arthur's baking company book - literally just downloaded it
• Figoni - how baking works - read 10%
• Bo Fridberg - the professional pastry chef - skimmed, used some recipes for fruit and chocolate sauces

The final one is more a compendium of recipes and techniques, and is not what I'll focus on - tends to not talk about why a certain ingredient is added. I'll add Bakewise and Cookwise to the mix.

 

7 hours ago, weinoo said:

 

And can you tell us what equipment you're using; e.g. what type of oven are you using, cookie sheets, baking sheets, etc.

 

Yeah, I was actually thinking of making a detailed list of what I have and making a "rate my setup" kind of thread. I am living in a small 30m2 apartment which has only one room where the bed and kitchen is (thankfully the bathroom is separate). The oven I have is fairly okay, tested it with an oven thermometer and it is accurate. Come to think of it, probably should get a room thermometer for stuff like butter and confections (that I'll get into later).

 

EDIT: Type of oven - non-convection.

 

As you might imagine, space is at a premium. I have one cookie sheet, a large 27 x 15 cm pan, two round detachable-rim cake pans (one 26, other 16 cm, around), a loaf mold and a tart pan. The cookie sheet needs a bit of a clean from years of neglect by former tenants (and me admittedly) - I am buying my own cookware from late. I could provide pictures - what is important about pans and sheets? They are not warped but are fairly thin - thus don't hold heat very well. The stovetop is a problem - only electric coils which are slow, fine for stocks but not so for searing meat. I also have a portable induction burner which is better for sauteeing.

 

I can make a collage of pictures and if you wanted you could advise what should be bought. I am planning on buying another cookie sheet and a pie pan - tart pan is too shallow.

Edited February 4 by PetarG (log)

[weinoo]

7 hours ago, PetarG said:

what is important about pans and sheets?

 

I think equipment and technique is as important as recipes almost all the time.  I don't think we need pictures.  

 

Do you have a stand mixer? Parchment paper?

 

Warped and thin cookie sheets, jelly-roll pans, baking sheets (whateverr one calls them) are not the greatest, in my opinion.

 

And you might want to download a cookie/cake/pastry book or two

 

Something like The Cookie Bible (eG-friendly Amazon.com link).  Rose's The Cake Bible and The Pastry Bible may also be helpful.

 

 

[PetarG]

On 2/4/2024 at 4:11 PM, weinoo said:

I think equipment and technique is as important as recipes almost all the time.  I don't think we need pictures.

 

By "what is important" I meant, what qualities one looks for in pans and sheets. Of course, different qualities are important for different purpuses. But this sheet is not the greatest, I see I need to get a new one. This one is pretty thin - I could not use it as viable body armour. No stand mixer, don't even know where I'd put it, only a hand electric mixer which was thus far fine for all purposes execept low-hydration bread dough (should've heard it strain when mixing brioche, also a workout and a half). Also:

• a good pancake pan
• a good sautee pan
• a small food processor
• parchment and cling film aplenty
• whisks, silicone spatulas, grates, ladles etc.

 

Anyhow, I tried making american cookies, using mainly the Sally's chewy cookie recipe which called for melted butter. It was fine after baking, nothing special, pleasantly chewy but the next day they were a bit too dry (and as many things american, a tad too sweet for my taste). I made mistakes in preparation as well - I did not have enough brown sugar (recipe called for 3:2 parts brown to white sugar, I only had 1:4), which (as I read it) makes for a crisper but less chewy cookie. I also was in a hurry, and did not let the dough rest enough, nor have I chilled it before baking.

 

Lesson learned - make the dough a day earlier, let it rest, form it into balls and let them chill for a moment. What I want is a thicker cookie, chewy inside, with a smaller surface to volume ratio so drying is a slower process; I also left them on the countertop in my room overnight which probably did not help the moisture loss. Also, chocolate is important - use a better tasting chocolate.

 

A question (or two) for seasoned eGulleters (is that what we call ourselves here) - the chocolate loses a bit of its sheen while cooking because it becomes untempered - is this even possible to avoid with these cookies? Also, how do you store them to avoid moisture loss, or at least minimize it?

 

I also made some more shortbread - this one was slightly denser than the last one, probably because it went directly from fridge, cut into slices and into the oven, and because I formed it into a brick with a bit more force. The cookie had thus a bit of a snap. Good to know. Attached below is a picture of the chip cookie (should probably put more chocolate in the as well, this one has almost none).

 

I will probably play a bit more with the shortbread, fill it with lemon curd (made some today) or top with toasted nuts and sugar or lemon glaze.

 

Edited February 5 by PetarG (log)

[weinoo]

I use Nordic Ware; I think they make good bakeware.

 

Like this cookie sheet.  And the rest of their baking sheets.

 

Vollrath Wear-Ever makes good stuff too; often used in restaurants...https://www.vollrathfoodservice.com/products/smallwares/cookware-bakeware/wear-ever-bakeware

 

 

[PetarG]

Unexpected but welcome success - I had some scraps of cookie dough left in the freezer, so I popped them into the oven at 175C and to my surprise, the cookies spread out far less. Thus, they were thicker and softer inside, and also have developed a nuttier taste. Was not expecting a day of rest in the freezer to do this, but this is already a stark improvement. Had one left, so I sealed it (after cooling) into a plastic tupperware box, see how it tastes tomorrow morning.

 

Anyhow, mild rambling ahead. As I see it, it would be helpful to gather a set of axes along which recipes can vary, so I can more systematically test variations in recipes. To illustrate, most frequent changes to recipes are:

• scaling - making batches smaller or bigger - this fundamentally does not change the recipe, as the ratios remain the same, unless the geometry of the problem changes (i.e., deep vs shallow pan, thick vs thin cookie)
• variation in [main ingredient] - here I mean swapping AP to bread, or cake flour, or swapping butter for coconut butter
• leavening - egg, soda, baking powder etc.
• baking temperature - high or low, short or long, but also the starting geometry of the cookie
• "spices" - i.e., flavour ingredients that do not change the texture or geometry of the product - these are interchangeable

If I could learn what variation in each of these fields does, then achieving a certain goal (say "soft" or "large volume/minimal spread") would be a problem of choosing from each of these categories an ingredient that maximizes the desired effect. For example, if I wanted the cookie to spread less, I would not choose brown sugar (apparently it makes the cookie spread out more), I would add cornstarch, I would let it cool (rest) in the fridge before baking, and I would bake at 190 for slightly shorter, instead at 180 or 160.

 

Of course, this is a not a complete list. There are probably other axes, but am I on the right track? The aim now would be to "fill out" this matrix with knowledge by either experimenting or reading literature.

[PetarG]

Made some brown sugar shortbread, and did not like the result. It felt dry, like there was sand in the mix, but it also had a chew in the middle, probably because of the brown sugar. The next day the texture improved (I guess the cookie took on moisture), but it was still no the tender shortbread I like. Perhaps whipping the butter - thus basically trying to make the volume larger, but also drying the dough via brown sugar hogging up all the moisture - is not a good combo.

 

Guess if I am to use brown sugar, make sure whatever you are baking has a good amount of moisture it can keep, so the result, moist + chewy, which is why we like stuff like brownies and american cookies, is obtained. Dry and chewy not so much.

 

But what do I know (more by the day, hopefully).

 

EDIT: I also put half a teaspoon of cloves, ginger and cinnamon into the cookie dough, but in the end they were almost imperceptible. Probably because they were bound up in the dough, and could not thus hit my receptors in the nose, and there was no moisture to transport them. Probably should use these spices in stuff that emits a lot of vapors instead, so moist and warm stuff.

Edited February 8 by PetarG (log)

[PetarG]

Had some shortbread dough, so rolled it and made cups in the muffin mold. Filled with cream cheese and lemon curd. While the each ingredient separately was quite nice, and I had a lot of fun making the cups, the lemon was a tad too strong. It really should be used sparingly.

 

 

Having thoughts of a shortbread base topped with creme patisserie and a cherry pudding.

[PetarG]

The chocolate chip cookies dry out pretty quickly, especially if the crumb is not very dense. Thus, I have given up to try to keep them fresh and instead opted to freeze the cookie dough in 45 gram balls, and bake as necessary. This way, I can have fresh cookies as I please, in under an hour, which is a better alternative. The 2 tablespoons of rum extract I put into them did not really stand out, so I'll need to find a blend of spices that better complements chocolate, as I do like spiced cookies.

 

[Smithy]

8 hours ago, PetarG said:

The chocolate chip cookies dry out pretty quickly, especially if the crumb is not very dense. Thus, I have given up to try to keep them fresh and instead opted to freeze the cookie dough in 45 gram balls, and bake as necessary. This way, I can have fresh cookies as I please, in under an hour, which is a better alternative. The 2 tablespoons of rum extract I put into them did not really stand out, so I'll need to find a blend of spices that better complements chocolate, as I do like spiced cookies.

 

 

Freezing to bake as you wish is a good strategy, if you have the freezer space for it. There's at least one company here in the USA that does that. What a treat it is, to walk into a hotel or airport business and get a warm, soft, chocolate chip cookie!

[PetarG]

On 2/11/2024 at 4:51 PM, Smithy said:

 

Freezing to bake as you wish is a good strategy, if you have the freezer space for it. There's at least one company here in the USA that does that. What a treat it is, to walk into a hotel or airport business and get a warm, soft, chocolate chip cookie!

 

Yes, but I wonder if there is a limit after which the cookies lose a lot of their flavor. Also - heard that baking soda is usually best used immediately, but after freezing for 2 days I had no issues, so don't know what's up with that (the cookies have baking soda).

[Fernwood]

16 hours ago, PetarG said:

Also - heard that baking soda is usually best used immediately, but after freezing for 2 days I had no issues, so don't know what's up with that (the cookies have baking soda).

 

There are batters that depend on the reaction between baking soda and acid for leavening--this activity would not stand up well to freezing which would disrupt the delicate foam of CO2 bubbles from that reaction.  In typical chocolate chip cookie dough, I believe the main effect of the soda is to balance the acidity of brown sugar and promote browning.  This is about adjusting the pH, not leavening--not likely affected by freezing.

[PetarG]

4 hours ago, Fernwood said:

 

There are batters that depend on the reaction between baking soda and acid for leavening--this activity would not stand up well to freezing which would disrupt the delicate foam of CO2 bubbles from that reaction.  In typical chocolate chip cookie dough, I believe the main effect of the soda is to balance the acidity of brown sugar and promote browning.  This is about adjusting the pH, not leavening--not likely affected by freezing.

 

Does acid inhibit browning in general (is this caramelization or Maillard reaction in the cookie, or both), and why?

 

*quick google*

 

Oh, okay, there's papers about that. Imma skim them.

[PetarG]

So - pound cake. Although Ruhlman's ratio says 1:1:1:1, I used the Preppy kitchen's recipe, which has ratio closer to 1:1.25:1.25:1.13 (flour-egg-butter-sugar). Also had sour cream. While the cake was pretty tasty and had a nice crispy crust, was moist, tender (even better with a lemon-sugar glaze), I felt it was pretty dense, and once cooled felt kinda rubbery. Figure 1 shows the cross-section of the cake the day after.

 

Notes - I am unsure what caused this density. Could be that the sugar and butter was undercreamed, or that the flour, once added, was undermixed (saw an article from King Arthur's). Or not enough baking powder. Thoughts?

 

EDIT: I see now large holes along an arc some 1-2 cm below the upper crust. Separation of the upper layer from the bottom?

 

Figure 1: Pound cake the day after.

[donk79]

I'm no pound cake expert,  but I would certainly expect the added fat of sour cream to weigh into the butter portion of the ratio.

[rotuts]

@PetarG

 

have you made the above pound cake 

 

w/o the sour cream ?

 

 

[blue_dolphin]

On 2/8/2024 at 1:00 PM, PetarG said:

Made some brown sugar shortbread, and did not like the result. It felt dry, like there was sand in the mix, but it also had a chew in the middle, probably because of the brown sugar. The next day the texture improved (I guess the cookie took on moisture), but it was still no the tender shortbread I like. Perhaps whipping the butter - thus basically trying to make the volume larger, but also drying the dough via brown sugar hogging up all the moisture - is not a good combo.

 

Guess if I am to use brown sugar, make sure whatever you are baking has a good amount of moisture it can keep, so the result, moist + chewy, which is why we like stuff like brownies and american cookies, is obtained. Dry and chewy not so much.

 

But what do I know (more by the day, hopefully).

 

EDIT: I also put half a teaspoon of cloves, ginger and cinnamon into the cookie dough, but in the end they were almost imperceptible. Probably because they were bound up in the dough, and could not thus hit my receptors in the nose, and there was no moisture to transport them. Probably should use these spices in stuff that emits a lot of vapors instead, so moist and warm stuff.

There are a lot of brown sugar shortbread recipes out there so you might consider them in drawing your conclusions, along with your personal taste, of course. 
David Lebovitz makes a thin, crisp version here and advises they are best eaten the day of baking. Melissa Clark includes a brown sugar variation, playing around with a basic shortbread here, where you will also see a number of flavoring suggestions.  
I've made quite a few flavored shortbreads where the flavors come through nicely. One example would be Deb Perelman's olive oil shortbread with rosemary. 
I’ve also made the salted rosemary shortbread, ginger rye shortbread, rose pistachio shortbread, fresh mint and lime shortbread, juniper olive shortbread and buttered rum shortbread, all from Sister Pie, and all had detectable flavors when eaten at room temp so I’m not sure your conclusion that added flavors require a warm, moist cookie is broadly applicable. 
 

 

Edited February 14 by blue_dolphin (log)

[AAQuesada]

15 hours ago, donk79 said:

I'm no pound cake expert

 I'm no pound cake expert either but density in a pound cake is a feature not a fault. I've never met one I would accuse of being light but still a favorite with a cup of coffee

[PetarG]

21 hours ago, donk79 said:

I'm no pound cake expert,  but I would certainly expect the added fat of sour cream to weigh into the butter portion of the ratio.

 

Of course. Since I added 100 g, and it is 20% fat, that would be added 20 g of fat. I'll make loadsa more with many variations.

 

21 hours ago, rotuts said:

@PetarG

 

have you made the above pound cake 

 

w/o the sour cream ?

 

 

 

No, but I will. Mind you, the cake is nice and moist after heating up in the oven, with a slightly crunchy crust, great with some chopped nuts and lemon curd. I'm planning one in the following days.

 

5 hours ago, AAQuesada said:

 I'm no pound cake expert either but density in a pound cake is a feature not a fault. I've never met one I would accuse of being light but still a favorite with a cup of coffee

 

I guess this is because I don't know what the cake is "supposed to be", but upon reflection that is a silly thought. I know it is moist, tasty and had a nice crunchy crust, but felt a bit dense after cooling - a tad rubbery. It can be a poisonous thought - is this "correct", It'd be better to describe what it feels like and compare to what I wanted the final product to be like, but be ready to be surprised.

19 hours ago, blue_dolphin said:

There are a lot of brown sugar shortbread recipes out there so you might consider them in drawing your conclusions, along with your personal taste, of course. 
David Lebovitz makes a thin, crisp version here and advises they are best eaten the day of baking. Melissa Clark includes a brown sugar variation, playing around with a basic shortbread here, where you will also see a number of flavoring suggestions.  
I've made quite a few flavored shortbreads where the flavors come through nicely. One example would be Deb Perelman's olive oil shortbread with rosemary. 
I’ve also made the salted rosemary shortbread, ginger rye shortbread, rose pistachio shortbread, fresh mint and lime shortbread, juniper olive shortbread and buttered rum shortbread, all from Sister Pie, and all had detectable flavors when eaten at room temp so I’m not sure your conclusion that added flavors require a warm, moist cookie is broadly applicable. 
 

 

 

I'll make a lot more, nowhere enough cookies made to draw any real conclusions. That being said, I wonder why cloves/ginger/cinnamon did not come through? Do you roll them in the spices so they are at the surface, and easily fly to the nose? I mixed them into the dough itself, so that's why I think they could not get easily to my nose.

[blue_dolphin]

33 minutes ago, PetarG said:

I'll make a lot more, nowhere enough cookies made to draw any real conclusions. That being said, I wonder why cloves/ginger/cinnamon did not come through? Do you roll them in the spices so they are at the surface, and easily fly to the nose? I mixed them into the dough itself, so that's why I think they could not get easily to my nose.

 

No, everything was mixed into the dough. There should be no need to snort or sniff at the cookies.  Assuming you're actually chewing them and not swallowing them whole, normal retronasal olfaction should be quite sufficient to deliver odor molecules in food or drink in the mouth to the receptors in the olfactory epithelium.