Does Braggs increase Maillard reaction?

[FeChef]

I went down a rabbit hole trying to come up with a spritz that would speed up browning at a lower temp and time. For example 250F for 4 hours. From all my google data ive come up with sugar+ amino acid. Which made me think Braggs liquid aminos and dextrose solution. Am i wrong in thinking these ingredients used as a spritz would increase browning?

Edited June 22, 2023 by Smithy
Corrected title spelling (log)

[FeChef]

Taken from Bragg's website:

Quote

Bragg Liquid Aminos contains 16 amino acids: alanine; arginine; aspartic acid; glutamic acid; glycine; histidine; isoleucine; lysine; leucine; methionine; phenylalanine; proline; serine; threonine; tyrosine; valine.

 

And a snipet i found about Dextrose powder:

Quote

In addition to sweetening, some of the key functions of dextrose for bakers are to:

• Affect dough viscosity
• Depress freezing points of products
• Control crystallization in icings and glazes
• Promote fermentation
• Affect texture
• Promote tenderness
• Act as a reducing sugar for browning and flavor development via the Maillard reaction

On top of that, Dextrose is 30% less sweet as regular table sugar.

 

I am thinking, making a 1:1 ratio simple syrup with half water half dextrose, then a 1:1 ratio of Bragg's and the simple dextrose syrup. If anyone has any technical advice on this, let me know. 

Thanks.

Edited June 22, 2023 by FeChef (log)

[Dave the Cook]

We could confuse the issue with theory and internet-science links. 

 

But it seems like a relatively cheap and harmless experiment. Why not just do it, and see what happens? Please let us know.

[heidih]

First thought was "oh like Kitchen Bouquet" which adds color and some flavor.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_Bouquet  Braggs is also mentioned as a sub for it here https://cookingchew.com/kitchen-bouquet-substitute.html  

 

 

[FeChef]

4 minutes ago, heidih said:

First thought was "oh like Kitchen Bouquet" which adds color and some flavor.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_Bouquet  Braggs is also mentioned as a sub for it here https://cookingchew.com/kitchen-bouquet-substitute.html  

 

 

Yes, but KB is just caramel coloring. If i wanted to cheat a maliard reaction, i have caramel coloring powder for that. I was hoping for a real natural reaction.

EDIT: just read that article. Wow, so much misinformation in that link. KB is not a browning agent, unless they meant brown food coloring agent..........

Edited June 22, 2023 by FeChef (log)

[heidih]

19 minutes ago, FeChef said:

Yes, but KB is just caramel coloring. If i wanted to cheat a maliard reaction, i have caramel coloring powder for that. I was hoping for a real natural reaction.

EDIT: just read that article. Wow, so much misinformation in that link. KB is not a browning agent, unless they meant brown food coloring agent..........

 

Sorry. Shutting up.

[FeChef]

22 minutes ago, heidih said:

 

Sorry. Shutting up.

It's ok. I guess if you removed the caramel coloring, the remaining ingredients could speed up the maliard reaction just with whatever sugars are in their alone. So technically they are not flat out lieing, just fibbing a bit, and leaving out they are basicly adding brown food coloring via caramel coloring.

 

btw, I love KB, i use it a lot to darken soups , sauces, and gravies. Just seems unethical to cheat meat.

Edited June 22, 2023 by FeChef (log)

[Duvel]

4 hours ago, FeChef said:

I am thinking, making a 1:1 ratio simple syrup with half water half dextrose, then a 1:1 ratio of Bragg's and the simple dextrose syrup. If anyone has any technical advice on this, let me know. 

Thanks.

I’d reckon you’ll get better results with a mixture of icing sugar & baking soda as a rub/dusting. 
To achieve a decent Maillard reaction you’ll need to get rid of the water in your spritz, and at low temperatures this takes some time. Better employ dry ingredients; the baking soda with partially dissolve the surface proteins, delivering the amino acids to react with the sugar.

[FeChef]

2 minutes ago, Duvel said:

I’d reckon you’ll get better results with a mixture of icing sugar & baking soda as a rub/dusting. 
To achieve a decent Maillard reaction you’ll need to get rid of the water in your spritz, and at low temperatures this takes some time. Better employ dry ingredients; the baking soda with partially dissolve the surface proteins, delivering the amino acids to react with the sugar.

This is not true. Steam actually darkens bark faster. For example, Katz Deli finishes their Pastrami in a steam bath. Look how dark the bark is on their pastrami.

[Duvel]

The Maillard reaction is at least a bimolecular reaction (sugar, amino acids), in reality probably of an even higher order. Therefore, the speed of the reaction is proportional to the concentration of each of the reactants (“the more often they meet each other, the faster they can react”). So, the smart way is to employ your reactive mixture without additional dilution. Have you ever tried to brown a steak in a wet pan !?

 

18 minutes ago, FeChef said:

Steam actually darkens bark faster.

Faster than ..? Faster than dry heat at the same heat transfer coefficient ? How do you compare and to what ?

 

18 minutes ago, FeChef said:

For example, Katz Deli finishes their Pastrami in a steam bath. Look how dark the bark is on their pastrami.

First, I’d call that anecdotal evidence. Second, the bark on pastrami is comprised of herbs, spices and smoke. There is surely some Maillard going on, but as you have dismissed other ways to create a browned exterior upthread, I would not use that example here.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Duvel (log)

[weinoo]

I'm pretty sure the Katz's pastrami is that color before it gets steamed...and before it gets steamed, it gets boiled for a few hours!

 

Quote

Before the pastrami's smoked it gets a spice rub. The full blend is a company secret, but onion, garlic, pepper, and coriander all make their way in. This rub helps form the black crusty bark on the meat once it's smoked.

 

Katz's - How They Make Their Pastrami

[gfweb]

iI'm not sure what we are discussing...browning in an oven or in a pan?

[FeChef]

5 hours ago, gfweb said:

iI'm not sure what we are discussing...browning in an oven or in a pan?

Oven.

[Duvel]

22 minutes ago, FeChef said:

Oven.

You are not really interested in actual feedback, are you ?

[FeChef]

4 minutes ago, Duvel said:

You are not really interested in actual feedback, are you ?

I don't feel like getting into an arguement with you about how more efficient wet heat is vs dry heat.

[Duvel]

1 minute ago, FeChef said:

I don't feel like getting into an arguement with you about how more efficient wet heat is vs dry heat.

Which I understand, given the irrelevance to the current subject and the predictable outcome.

 

But are you actually interested in getting a decent Maillard reaction going at ~20 oC below the actual onset, or do you just want to get approval for your idea(s) with the liquid aminos ?

 

 

[FeChef]

1 minute ago, Duvel said:

Which I understand, given the irrelevance to the current subject and the predictable outcome.

 

But are you actually interested in getting a decent Maillard reaction going at ~20 oC below the actual onset, or do you just want to get approval for your idea(s) with the liquid aminos ?

 

 

No. What i asked in the OP was never answered.

[Duvel]

11 minutes ago, FeChef said:

No. What i asked in the OP was never answered.

I answered it, maybe in too indirect way:

 

You‘ll unlikely get a decent Maillard reaction on the surface of your roast/chicken breast/tofu cube at 120 oC and 4h when you employ a wet marinade containing free amino acids and sugar. You‘ll get a bit of yellowing.

 

Your only chance is to eliminate the accompanying surface water by employing a dry rub. As you unlikely will be using powdered AAs your best chance is to generate these in situ by increasing the surface pH using alkaline salts.

 

Go and try it out.

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Duvel (log)

[chromedome]

I'm with Dave the Cook, the question lends itself to empirical verification. Two pieces of meat, identical cooking conditions, one with the additions and one without. Why get bogged down in theory, when you can resolve it in practice?

 

I'd be curious to know the outcome, even if I never actually make use of the information.

[FeChef]

8 minutes ago, Duvel said:

I answered it, maybe in too indirect way:

 

You‘ll unlikely get a decent Maillard reaction on the surface of your roast/chicken breast/tofu cube at 120 oC and 4h when you employ a wet marinade containing free amino acids and sugar. You‘ll get a bit of yellowing.

 

Your only change is to eliminate the accompanying surface water by employing a dry rub. As you unlikely will be using powdered AAs your best chance is ti generate these in situ by increasing the surface pH using alkaline salts.

 

Sorry if i am not understanding your answer. I don't see how a fine mist ( spritz ) of sugar and amino acids which will quickly evaporate shortly after it hits the meats surface with temps of 250F+ is going to prevent browning.

Edited June 22, 2023 by FeChef (log)

[Duvel]

Just now, FeChef said:

Sorry if i am not understanding your answer. I don't see how a fine mist ( spritz ) of sugar and amino acids which will quickly evaporate shortly after it hits the meats surface with temps of 250F+.

You know what: try it. Liquid and dry rub. Make pictures. Afterwards, you‘ll owe me a pizza. Well browned.

[FeChef]

13 minutes ago, chromedome said:

I'm with Dave the Cook, the question lends itself to empirical verification. Two pieces of meat, identical cooking conditions, one with the additions and one without. Why get bogged down in theory, when you can resolve it in practice?

 

I'd be curious to know the outcome, even if I never actually make use of the information.

I was planning to do this with a expensive piece of meat. I would have to find a cheaper meat to do a comparison test. I figured someone would have known if Bragg's speeds up browning since its a amino acid.

Edited June 22, 2023 by FeChef (log)

[Duvel]

13 minutes ago, FeChef said:

Sorry if i am not understanding your answer. I don't see how a fine mist ( spritz ) of sugar and amino acids which will quickly evaporate shortly after it hits the meats surface with temps of 250F+.

I am really trying to get you there: please read this explanation on the reverse sear technique to understand how your desired conditions will affect the surface chemistry of your roast/chicken breast/tofu cube …

 

https://www.seriouseats.com/reverse-seared-steak-recipe

 

TL;DR:

 

Moral of the story: Moisture is the biggest enemy of a good sear, so any process that can reduce the amount of surface moisture on a steak is going to improve how well it browns and crisps—and, by extension, minimize the amount of time it spends in the pan, thus minimizing the amount of overcooked meat underneath. It's a strange irony that to get the moistest possible results, you should start with the driest possible steak.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Duvel (log)

[Tropicalsenior]

1 minute ago, Duvel said:

the reverse sear technique

For me, the only way to go. Thank you.

[FeChef]

5 minutes ago, Duvel said:

I am really trying to get you there: please read this explanation on the reverse sear technique to understand how your desired conditions will affect the surface chemistry of your roast/chicken breast/tofu cube …

 

https://www.seriouseats.com/reverse-seared-steak-recipe

I see we disagree on this as well. I prefer to high heat sear first to get some good char, then tent in foil and cook low and slow till IT reaches target temp (for me thats 133F ) The benefit to this is the juices in the foil make a really savory au jus.