What kind of flour am I looking for?

[Hassouni]

Hi everyone, look time no see on eG. I'm opening my bar very soon and want to offer fresh made mana'ish - Levantine flatbread/pizza kind of things, cooked on a saj. For those that don't know what a saj is, here you go:

 

http://s-live.s3.amazonaws.com/image_source/19/21/19214170e3c019219eec92924e89dce33d00362e.jpg

 

In Lebanon, sometimes they're clearly made from white flour and don't differ too much from a pizza-type dough, but the best ones are different. Here's a shot of the best I've had lately (folded in half) :

 

It appears to be darker than white flour, and gets reeeeally crispy, without turning crackery and remining flexible enough to fold, all without being oily as they sometimes are. David Lebovitz has an interesting post about it, but he suspects it's "toasted flour" - I'm sure the bakers there aren't toasting the flour themselves - is this a thing that one can buy?

 

Some recipes I've seen say to mix white flour and whole wheat, other recipes (usually in Arabic) simply say "wheat flour", but don't get more specific than that. Can whole wheat dough be made that thin and get that crispy? I used to cook lots of Indian food and make chapatis a lot, might Atta flour be similar to what I'm looking for?

 

I'm not a baker by any stretch so please treat me like a novice! Thanks!

 

[KennethT]

looks like naan to me (but that could just be the pic)... tons of recipes online for it - maybe a good starting point?

 

ETA - just read the david lebovitz article.... disregard my statement!!!

Edited February 25, 2018 by KennethT (log)

[cakewalk]

I was also going to suggest toasted flour. I have no idea if you can source such a thing (sorry) but I do think that will give you the texture you're seeking. 

[Okanagancook]

The picture looks similar to the atta flour I can buy here only a bit darker so yes, maybe they toast it first.

[Hassouni]

Can one buy toasted flour in sufficient quantities? How do the end results differ from standard flour?

 

I'm going to do some experimenting (I finally after years got a stand mixer), and will also try Atta flour and white + whole wheat

[Chris Hennes]

I've never seen toasted wheat flour for sale, but it's easy to make on a small scale. So maybe before spending a lot of time sourcing it, or figuring out how to make it on a commercial scale, you could do a quick test and make the blend that Lebovitz suggests. My recollection is that toasted flour doesn't develop gluten, or doesn't develop it well, and the bran and germ also interfere with gluten development, so it seems like getting a dough as stretchy as you need is going to be the biggest challenge. And I'd second @Okanagancook's suggestion of trying Atta as your base flour, it's usually ground more finely that typical US whole wheat flours.

 

[tikidoc]

Second the atta flour. It’s hard wheat so high in gluten. I make pita with a mix of half and half atta and King Arthur bread flour, and it rolls out very thin.

[Hassouni]

Another thing to add is that the dough usually is pretty pliable, and is stretched out over a pillow with little to no pull back, as seen here (this is for a larger, untopped version but the principle is the same): 

 

[cakewalk]

Great video. The pliability of the dough reminds me of strudel dough. The crispiness of it after it was cooked and rolled up and he took a bite was just brilliant!

[Kerry Beal]

I third the atta flour.

[Hassouni]

Just spoke with a pretty accomplished Palestinian-American baker and he suspects in “the old country” they might use durum wheat flour. How might this affect things?

 

PS. Made some today with just KA AP flour. Tasty but def not what I’m looking for. Bought some atta flour and will try that 

[Anna N]

Certainly some atta flour is made from durum wheat. Click. 

[Chris Hennes]

5 hours ago, Anna N said:

Certainly some atta flour is made from durum wheat. Click. 

That's the brand I use. Actually, I thought Atta was by definition durum wheat, but I have no evidence for this (the passage I thought said that in Jaffrey's book does not, in fact, say that!)

[Anna N]

5 hours ago, Chris Hennes said:

That's the brand I use. Actually, I thought Atta was by definition durum wheat, but I have no evidence for this (the passage I thought said that in Jaffrey's book does not, in fact, say that!)

I was of the same opinion but also could not find anything to back me up. 

[Kerry Beal]

Me as well - but in the Indian store where I bought atta flour the other day I seem to recall seeing non durum atta though I wouldn't swear to it.

[Hassouni]

OK, I'm back. The bar is up and running and we are cranking out the mana'ish. For lack of anything better, we settled on the recipe from the Man'oushe book, which off the top of my head, is something like:

 

360g bread flour

150g cake flour

300g water

1 tsp sugar

1 tsp yeast

2 tsp salt

 

(ratios may be slightly off but it's more or less that).

 

Usually, this produces a finished product that looks like this

 

 

But once it made this, which is really what I want, or is at least much closer to my ideal:

 

...much more evenly brown, crispy, delightful.

 

We've tried all kinds of variables - thinness of the dough, heat of the saj, rolling the dough cold versus letting it come to room temp and proof again, and I can't seem to find the set of variables to make it consistently like the second picture.

 

Experts, I would greatly appreciate your feedback!

 

 

[Lisa Shock]

Try higher hydration, maybe about 50g more water for the formula above. It may be more difficult to handle (if it's sticky, wet your hands to handle it) but will produce the bubbles you want. Also, try making the dough and storing it in the fridge for 24 hours -this gives flavor and better gluten development.

[Hassouni]

2 hours ago, Lisa Shock said:

Try higher hydration, maybe about 50g more water for the formula above. It may be more difficult to handle (if it's sticky, wet your hands to handle it) but will produce the bubbles you want. Also, try making the dough and storing it in the fridge for 24 hours -this gives flavor and better gluten development.

 

We make a few days' worth at a time, so most of them do get at least 24 hours in the fridge - I'll try higher hydration though, thanks!