Experimenting with my Bread Machine

[ElsieD]

@andiesenji  thanks again.  I just put on a second loaf, blades all the way down, positioned in opposite directions.  I am making the same 6 grain loaf except I am using active dry yeast instead of the rapid rise.  Funnily enough, when I first put the blades in, and checked them, I did not have one of them all the way down.  It is almost as though it caught on something.  I'll have to watch for that. I'm pretty sure now that my problem with the first loaf was the improper blade position.

[lindag]

When I insert my blades I always spin them to be sure they're seated properly.

[ElsieD]

I did this too and THEN I placed them opposite each other.  

[andiesenji]

19 hours ago, ElsieD said:

I did this too and THEN I placed them opposite each other.  

I watch in the early phases, The dough should look like it is shifting from side to side and slowly folds in on itself.  

And remember,  if it doesn't look like it has mixed enough and doesn't have the "smooth" appearance, you can always  stop the machine completely, cancel the cycle and just start it again from the beginning, add a tablespoon or water, or if it looks too sloppy, add a tablespoon or two of flour.

YOU control the machine.

 

Here is what I am doing now.  I started with one of the box mixes, calls for a cup of water and 2 tablespoons of oil

I dumped in 1 1/2 cups of water, 3/4 cup of rye flour and three tablespoons of whole milk powder and some caraway seeds.

After it had gone through the first kneading cycle, it looked a little skimpy (this is the 3-pound machine)  I cancelled the program.  

I mixed separately, 2/3 cup of bread flour, 1/3 cup of milk and heated it in the microwave, beat it into a thick slurry and allowed it to cool to 106°

I then added 2 teaspoons of fresh yeast.  Mixed it vigorously and allowed it to sit for 15 minutes, the yeast was VERY ACTIVE.  

I then dumped that into the machine and reset it to the #1 program, plain white bread and turned it on.

This is well into the second kneading cycle.   It has the slightly glossy look I expect at this stage and everything has been incorporated into the dough.

If it rises a lot, I will probably cut some off when I pull it out to remove the paddles at the end of the last kneading cycle. On my machine the timer shows 1:55 to go till done.

Edited November 6, 2017 by andiesenji (log)

[andiesenji]

This is 17 minutes after the prior photo.  This is definitely rising rapidly and I will have to remove some of the dough (goes into oiled plastic bag and into the fridge)

or it will hit the top of the machine.

 

[andiesenji]

This is at the 155 mark, just before the final "punch-down" knead.  Photo #1  As you can see, it is too high to bake like this, the oven "spring" will cause it to hit the top.

 

 

This is after I have divided the dough, removing about 1/3 or so and returning it to the pan, with the paddle removed.  The time shows 1:50 remaining to finish.

 

 

And the last photo is the oiled plastic bag with the remaining dough.  I will keep it in the fridge for a day or so and then make rolls from it.

 

 

[ElsieD]

@andiesenji  thank you for your "show and tell". The loaf I made yesterday turned out well.  It was 6 1/2" high.  I don't know if that is normal, but it did not hit the lid so I guess all was well.  The loaf was well mixed and was evenly baked with a more or less perfect top.  We ate some today and I am happy with it.  What I did not do, and will do with the next loaf I make is pay attention to what happens when.   I'll compare it to your pictures so I can get a good sense of what happens when.  I'll also take the blades out before baking.  I watched most of the DVD that came with the machine and they suggested that you could bake rolls in the machine.  I would think the rolls would stick to each other and end up as one big blob.  

 

Anyway, I'll be making another loaf in a couple of days and I'm looking forward to it.

[andiesenji]

The Zojirushi I have, from about 15 years ago had "racks" that went into the pan for baking rolls.  I never used them, I just take the dough out, divide and shape it.

Put the rolls on a sheet pan and bake them off in the regular oven.

 

I have the method for cinnamon raisin rolls with the dough being mixed and kneaded, rise and kneaded through the entire dough cycle on my blog.  The machine does all the routine work and you get to do the fun part.  The link to my blog is at the bottom of every one of my posts.

Edited November 8, 2017 by andiesenji (log)

[Anna N]

Just thought it was worthwhile to mention that the just released Modernist Bread has a good section on bread machines and provides recipes for quite a number of breads. Have not really dug into the section yet but I thought it worth mentioning.  

 

 Edited to add: please let’s not take this off topic. If you have questions please start another topic. 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Anna N (log)

[ElsieD]

On 2017-11-06 at 9:37 PM, andiesenji said:

The Zojirushi I have, from about 15 years ago had "racks" that went into the pan for baking rolls.  I never used them, I just take the dough out, divide and shape it.

Put the rolls on a sheet pan and bake them off in the regular oven.

 

I have the method for cinnamon raisin rolls with the dough being mixed and kneaded, rise and kneaded through the entire dough cycle on my blog.  The machine does all the routine work and you get to do the fun part.  The link to my blog is at the bottom of every one of my posts.

 

 

Thanks, Andie, when I am ready to do raisin buns I will refer back to your blog.  They look great.

 

Yesterday I decided to try a one pound loaf of plain white bread in the machine.  I tried to time the various stages but since I forgot to set the timer I ended up with approximations.  Plus, I had to go and look after Sam, the cat, and that threw me off even more.  Still, I ran this mainly as an experiment to see how a one pound loaf would turn out in a machine meant to do 1 1/2 and 2 pound loaves.  The answer is perfectly well if you don't mind aď slightly  misshapen loaf, although I did go in between cycles to shape it a bit.  But, the top of the loaf remained white.  I decided to brown the top under the broiler except I was doing something else and let it go a bit longer than I should have.  The end product is what you see in this post.

 

The bread eats fine, although I find it to be on the sweet side.  When I make bread without the machine I never use sugar.  Is there a requirement to use sugar when making bread in a bread machine? I'd rather not have to use any, or if I must, as little as possible.

[rotuts]

Does MB recommend any particular machines ?

 

my copy won't ship until Nov 13 !

 

and does any one know if there is a machine that allows you to take out the dough

 

and retard it in the refig

 

yet putt back in the machine on a rise setting than a ' custom bake '  i.e. you set the time

 

or a baking time that would work for such a loaf ?

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, rotuts said:

Does MB recommend any particular machines ?

 

my copy won't ship until Nov 13 !

 

and does any one know if there is a machine that allows you to take out the dough

 

and retard it in the refig

 

yet putt back in the machine on a rise setting than a ' custom bake '  i.e. you set the time

 

or a baking time that would work for such a loaf ?

 I will do my best to read through that section later today and try and answer your questions. 

[andiesenji]

1 hour ago, ElsieD said:

 

Thanks, Andie, when I am ready to do raisin buns I will refer back to your blog.  They look great.

 

Yesterday I decided to try a one pound loaf of plain white bread in the machine.  I tried to time the various stages but since I forgot to set the timer I ended up with approximations.  Plus, I had to go and look after Sam, the cat, and that threw me off even more.  Still, I ran this mainly as an experiment to see how a one pound loaf would turn out in a machine meant to do 1 1/2 and 2 pound loaves.  The answer is perfectly well if you don't mind aď slightly  misshapen loaf, although I did go in between cycles to shape it a bit.  But, the top of the loaf remained white.  I decided to brown the top under the broiler except I was doing something else and let it go a bit longer than I should have.  The end product is what you see in this post.

 

The bread eats fine, although I find it to be on the sweet side.  When I make bread without the machine I never use sugar.  Is there a requirement to use sugar when making bread in a bread machine? I'd rather not have to use any, or if I must, as little as possible.

 

No. You do not need to add sugar.  I think some recipes add it to give a boost to the yeast but if your yeast is fresh and active it is not needed.     I leave it out of most recipes unless it is a sweet dough.   Your machine should have a "bake only" cycle - usually the last one on the menu.  You can select that and push start and set your timer for 15 minutes, which is usually enough to brown the top.

 

With some breads that are quite dense, the regular cycles do not bake them long enough.  I use my Thermapen to check the interior temp.  It has to be at least 200°F and for some, heavy breads with a lot of whole seeds and grains, I make sure the interior temp reaches 210°F. before I push the off button.  

[ElsieD]

23 minutes ago, Anna N said:

 I will do my best to read through that section later today and try and answer your questions. 

 

Me too! I'm interested in this too!

[lindag]

I have yet to actually bake a loaf in my Zo because of experience in the past with my old machines.

Now that I have the perfect raisin bread recipe (here) I want to make the attempt so I can have a fresh, fragrant loaf ready when I get up in the morning.

I need to get my sourdough ready so it'll be later in the week.

 

[ElsieD]

27 minutes ago, lindag said:

I have yet to actually bake a loaf in my Zo because of experience in the past with my old machines.

Now that I have the perfect raisin bread recipe (here) I want to make the attempt so I can have a fresh, fragrant loaf ready when I get up in the morning.

I need to get my sourdough ready so it'll be later in the week.

 

Are you baking this in the machine or in the oven?  

[chromedome]

On 06/11/2017 at 9:21 PM, ElsieD said:

@andiesenji  thank you for your "show and tell". The loaf I made yesterday turned out well. 

Just FYI, one of the first batches I made in my Zo came out exactly like your ill-fated first loaf. It was, indeed, because one of the paddles wasn't seated properly. In my case, because I was using the dough cycle, I was able to salvage the properly-mixed portion of the dough. 

 

RE your soaker, my Zo beeps several minutes into the kneading cycle to let me know when it's time to drop add-ins into the dough. I'm guessing that would work, if yours has the similar feature. 

[lindag]

Elsie,

I plan to bake in the machine this time, as a test.

 

[ElsieD]

1 hour ago, andiesenji said:

 

No. You do not need to add sugar.  I think some recipes add it to give a boost to the yeast but if your yeast is fresh and active it is not needed.     I leave it out of most recipes unless it is a sweet dough.   Your machine should have a "bake only" cycle - usually the last one on the menu.  You can select that and push start and set your timer for 15 minutes, which is usually enough to brown the top.

 

With some breads that are quite dense, the regular cycles do not bake them long enough.  I use my Thermapen to check the interior temp.  It has to be at least 200°F and for some, heavy breads with a lot of whole seeds and grains, I make sure the interior temp reaches 210°F. before I push the off button.  

 

Thanks.  I can live without the sugar in my bread.

 

I just spent some quality time with the instruction manual.  It would look as though the HOME MADE course has a bake cycle I can use, but I haven't figured out which button(s) to push.  I'll look into that.  As to the temperature, I always check mine with a Thermopan as I want the loaves to be at least 200F.

 

Again, Andie, thanks for all your help.  I appreciate it.  

[Anna N]

So for those who are interested here’s the Coles Notes version of the bread machine chapter in Modernist Bread. 

 

Even the best bread machine cannot compete with bread made in a stand mixer and baked in an oven. 

 

 Two major drawbacks are that it is not powerful enough to mix properly nor hot enough to bake properly.

 

But then there’s the claim that they have hacked the machine (they don’t actually hack any machine they just adapt to its limitations) to get a much better result including the possibility of 100% rye and a braided challah (this is braided by hand and baked in the  machine). 

 

They recognize the appeal of the machine on a variety of levels and say that 8% of American households own a bread machine and sales of flour and yeast suggest many of them are being used. 

 And so they have made it possible to use most of their master recipes in the bread machine in one form or another. 

 

 They make note of some of the major shortcomings and offer solutions such as shaping by hand but baking in the machine

 

They also suggest looking in thrift stores for bread machines. 

 

 The bottom line seems to be that you can get decent results but you’ll need more hands-on time which may will negate the reason that you bought the machine in the first place. 

 

 They also note that most machine made breads can be improved with the addition of vital wheat gluten. 

 

 They  make no machine  recommendation that I could find. 

 

All of the photographs of bread they have created in a bread machine display those very peculiar shapes unique to each machine. 

 

That’s my summary. I hope anyone who has the books and disagrees with it will chime in here.  

 

 

 

[rotuts]

@Anna N 

 

thanks !

[ElsieD]

@Anna N  Thanks for taking the time to write this up.  I'll add some vital wheat gluten to the mix from now on.

[andiesenji]

4 hours ago, chromedome said:

Just FYI, one of the first batches I made in my Zo came out exactly like your ill-fated first loaf. It was, indeed, because one of the paddles wasn't seated properly. In my case, because I was using the dough cycle, I was able to salvage the properly-mixed portion of the dough. 

 

RE your soaker, my Zo beeps several minutes into the kneading cycle to let me know when it's time to drop add-ins into the dough. I'm guessing that would work, if yours has the similar feature. 

You can salvage all of it.  As long as the dough has not been baked or dried out, just fix the paddles, add a bit more water, and half to one teaspoon of yeast to kickstart it.  Start the cycle again and leave it to finish.  I have forgotten to add some ingredients from time to time and just zero out the cycle, add what is needed and restart from the beginning.  Yeast dough is very forgiving.  I learned this when working in my mom's bakery in the '50s.  We re-vitalized dough that had been left in one of the dough troughs (for the first rise after mixing) and had risen and deflated.  It was cut into manageable pieces, tossed back in the big horizontal mixer,  had some liquid and flour added, some yeast (we used fresh) and remixed.  Turned out fine.  

I can't tell you how many times I started something on the dough cycle and then got involved with other tasks and totally forgot about it.  Sometimes I would take it out of the pan, stick it in a plastic bag in the fridge and then rework it the next day or the day after, adding more yeast and whatever else was required to get it back to what i wanted.  

I have also taken a small piece of the dough, when I was experimenting with "flavors" and baked the little "roll" to see if it was the flavor I wanted. 

[chromedome]

2 minutes ago, andiesenji said:

You can salvage all of it.  As long as the dough has not been baked or dried out, just fix the paddles, add a bit more water, and half to one teaspoon of yeast to kickstart it.  Start the cycle again and leave it to finish.

Yeah, I should have been clear that I was facing a time constraint that day. As Andie says, you can recover from a surprising number and variety of errors if you have the time. 

[lindag]

I'm so disappointed!  I  wanted some homemade bread to go with tonight's goulash and decided to make my first ever loaf baked in my Zo (I normally mix in the Zo and then oven bake.

It was a big failure.  I don't know if it was my attempt to even out the top that caused the cratering ...maybe I did it too late(?)

The recipe was from KAF, their Potato wheat bread (to which I subbed half of the www for AP flour.

Discouraging enough that I'll go back to the oven now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by lindag (log)