Wine & Spirits Bargains at the PLCB (Part 2)

[Alcibiades]

I know that market-driven pricing isn't happening. I know that restaurants buy-up a lot of these wines. In short, I know all these things are happening and thank all of you for taking the time to provide explanations. As a former professional wine buyer in Philadelphia and a current restaurant GM, I know these reasons as well as all of you. We all know why it is/isn't happening. My point is that it should happen and I know there's no practical firewall preventing it from happening. For one, all the first growth Bordeaux wines are not allocated solely to restaurants. There are plenty of bottles on display in the PLCB stores on Chestnut St. If the state felt they wouldn't sell them to consumers they wouldn't offer them for retail sale. As to the point about storage, this concern is true for all wine buying, regardless of "provenance." The middlemen who ship the wines often times aren't as diligent as they should be. With that said, if the state comes out and admits that they don't have the capacity to guarantee the integrity of the wines they sell (e.g. bottles that are aging-worthy) then that is a procedural flaw that, once recognized, should cause them to withdraw from offering any of these wines for sale. Because you suspect that is the case a.) doesn't make it so and b.) shouldn't prevent them from guaranteeing the quality of the wines they sell by correcting the problem if, in fact, there is one (see winecommune.com if you think this problem doesn't exist in the private sector).

I'm not trying to take issue with any of the valid points you've all raised. Nor am I trying to trash the CS system. But to merely say that it's been good and we should be happy with what we have is an attitude that I'm sure none of us would have accepted before the system came in and improved things. Even though the PLCB inhibits the mechanisms of free markets in wine sales doesn't mean that it can't provide a fairly-priced, integrity-based prodcut. That is all.

Thank you again for your diligence.

And Cap., you're right that the 05 Bordeaux futures are out of hand. Almost as out of control as the 06 futures. Incidentally, you should consider going back to your Leonidas handle. He's getting a lot of press these days.

One more thing: for those inclined, Ridge is offering 06 futures on Monte Bello for $80 per bottle, 6 bottle min. Not through PA, of course.

[Misha]

The latest LCB srewup. CS wines were distributed earlier than they were scheduled. Some stores got them out on the floor and some didn't. They are all now in the back room waiting for the proper release date, unless somebody comes in and asks for them, in which case they'll go in the back room and get it for you. Kinda reminds you of the good old days.

Best,

Mike

PS There a list on the cash register

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Here's my experience:

This morning I see that one of the Yardley stores has over 100 bottles of the '03 Hanna and the '04 Montes Syrah. I print out their inventory and take a trip there after work. I get there and neither are on the floor. So, I ask one of the clerks who tells me that while they have them, she can't sell them to me as they are "on hold" for an upcoming promotion... they want to be sure they "have enough for the upcoming holiday."

She gives me a pamphlet and encourges me to call the toll free # listed therein to complain. I do so and, needless to say, as it's now after 5pm no one answers the phone. I go back in the store, ask her to call and she does and gets the same non-response. She then call someone else and explains that I'm there w/ a print out showing they have it (which, of course, must have been printed before she was told to put all "on hold"). They ask how many I want (and, I guess, as I didn't want to wipe out their entire stock as I'm no a licensee) was finally told she could sell to me!

Is this effed up or what? They have wine but don't want to sell it before it's time! I thought the purpose of the PLBC is to maintain control over the sale of alcohol to minors & visibly intoxicated persons and collect the outrageous taxes, not to deny a lawful purchaser access to a product available for sale!

Over a half an hour wasted trying to get some wine.

BTW, I popped open the '03 Hanna (how could I not after all the agro I was put thru, and boy o boy, I can't wait 'til 3/25 or 3/27 to get some more!

Edited March 16, 2007 by Misha (log)

[mrbigjas]

I think the fact that the CS program was able to purchase some fabulous Super Tuscans and lower tiered Burgundies and Bordeaux was about as much of a miracle as I'd ever witnessed.

don't forget several brunellos that will probably be starting to get awesome when the chairman's selection program is just a faint memory.

[mrbigjas]

I'm not trying to take issue with any of the valid points you've all raised. Nor am I trying to trash the CS system. But to merely say that it's been good and we should be happy with what we have is an attitude that I'm sure none of us would have accepted before the system came in and improved things.

i don't see that it matters much, at this point. it was a good program. sure it had its flaws, but it was overall a good thing. but as far as i'm concerned, no more newman, no more chairman's selection.

at least not one that i'm interested in -- and i say that knowing that my taste in wine didn't mesh with the program a lot.

the palcb is going to have to do a lot to win me back over, even to the extent they did.

south jersey: land of cheap gas and good wine stores. remind me again why people bust on it? total wine, i'll see ya soon. you too, moore bros. and for the booze.... ok i'll probably still get liters down on delaware ave, but i wish they'd fix that goddamn web inventory system. they're showing 7 bottles of my favorite bourbon at 19th & chestnut, and 12 at 12th & chestnut, having been at both of those stores in the last couple of days? THEY AIN'T THERE.

Edited March 16, 2007 by mrbigjas (log)

[Mano]

...the most knowledgeable collectors have high regard for many CS wines

That is a huge stretch to say "most" and "many". Don't try to elevate the program to something it is not.

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Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post. I was talking specifically about the people in my wine and dinner group.

Getting back to original topic of this thread, does anyone have some good PCLB recs?

Edited March 16, 2007 by Mano (log)

[Andrew Fenton]

Is this effed up or what? They have wine but don't want to sell it before it's time!

You didn't notice Orson Welles at the store, did you? Because he, too, would "sell no wine before its time."

[Kevin Porter]

The 2003 Hanna cab is now available on the website.

A couple of comments on the PA system, for what they're worth. Of course, I'm agin' the PLCB in general. W/r/t the CS program - I've found some good bargains, but find most offerings to be off-vintage and not worth the (albeit reduced) price.

There is, however, a weird little sweet-spot that occurs when the critics love a wine that PA has. Others raise their prices, making PA a good buy...relatively. A current example is '04 Pegau Reservee' CNDP @ $55. Not cheap, but best in the country as far as I can tell, and that includes Premier Cru, which will buy on grey market and deliver in 2008. 02 Shafer HHS cab was in the system @ $199 when it was selling for $300 elsewhere. '03 Pegau Reservee and Da Capo and 02 Quilceda Creek Cab were other examples.

These 'deals' require some research, and often the few bottles are concentrated in Pittsburgh or Harrisburg (fancy that). I also have concerns about provenance, but they're mitigated by the liberal return policy.

This is not intended to be a defense of an archaic and corrupt system. In fact, I'm not sure that it's anything more than a Friday AM brain-dump ...

I guess I'm just sharing another way to work with the system, as Katie did.

Happy hunting

[mandabear]

ok well

here goes a response form your average joe pa-- I love the chariman's selaction program. I am a young woman, obviously not in a high income bracket, but who knows enough about wine to know that to learn about wine you need to drink wine. The chairman's selections allow me to pick up a few bottles of some unfamiliar varietals and taste them at home. Through the chariman's selections i have become a big fan of reisling, sauvignon blanc, and syrah. My freinds are still drinking the magnums of pinot grigio and wite zinfandel for the same price. I have a desire to learn more about wine, and trips to the state store allow me to do so by the information posted around the chariman's selections. Also, what could be a nicer compliment to our byob scene then resonably priced and interesting wines?

[dagordon]

...i wish they'd fix that goddamn web inventory system.  they're showing 7 bottles of my favorite bourbon at 19th & chestnut, and 12 at 12th & chestnut, having been at both of those stores in the last couple of days?  THEY AIN'T THERE.

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Amen to that. It's 2007. There's absolutely no excuse for their online inventory system being so wildly inaccurate.

A couple of weeks ago I needed a Sauternes in a hurry and was trying to track down the 2003 Bastor-Lamontagne, which seemed like the best choice out of the very small offerings at the state stores. Online system showed that 12th and Chestnut had like 4; they can't find any. They tell me to go to 19th and Chestnut, which apparently has 14; the staff there and I spend literally 45 minutes trying to track down a bottle, with no success. Part of the problem is that it looks like store was organized by a four year old.

So I get this Ch Piada Sauterns for $47 or so, as opposed to the $30 that the other would have cost. As I'm checking out I ask if they'd be willing to give me the Piada for the price of the Bastor-Manontagne, as they just wasted 45 minutes of my time (more like an hour, including the time at the 12th St store). They look at me like I had two heads and ask with disbelief, "You expect us to give you this for $30?" At that point I lose it, and launch into a tirade about the state stores, which it seems amuses some of the other customers waiting on line.

Of course, any reputable wine merchant would not only have readily discounted the wine if their online inventory had been so wildly inacurrate, but would have probably offered to do so without my asking.

Edited March 16, 2007 by dagordon (log)

[mrbigjas]

A couple of weeks ago I needed a Sauternes in a hurry

man oh man. sometimes i read something on here that makes complete sense to me, and then i realize just how crazy it would look to someone who had other priorities in life. and this is one of those times.

[Tim Dolan]

ok well

here goes a response form your average joe pa-- I love the chariman's selaction program.  I am a young woman, obviously not in a high income bracket, but who knows enough about wine to know that to learn about wine you need to drink wine.  The chairman's selections allow me to pick up a few bottles of some unfamiliar varietals and taste them at home.  Through the chariman's selections i have become a big fan of reisling, sauvignon blanc, and syrah.  My freinds are still drinking the magnums of pinot grigio and wite zinfandel for the same price. I have a desire to learn more about wine, and trips to the state store allow me to do so by the information posted around the chariman's selections.  Also, what could be a nicer compliment to our byob scene then resonably priced and interesting wines?

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I'm with her. Except for the young woman part.

Regarding the back-and-forth about the merits (or lack thereof) of the CS program, I guess it fits the cliche that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As with many things, I'm sure that turning a profit was a major goal of the program and it looks to have accomplished that goal. What better way to do that than to target the general public? At the same time, the intention also seemed to be to steer the average box-of-wine/Woodbridge drinker towards other wines that they normally never would have considered. The world of wine can be vast and intimidating for a novice, and the CS program just gives those people a nudge in a better direction.

[Alcibiades]

I need to retrace my steps a bit: in looking at the upcoming CS wines, there are some amazing deals in the high-end range. No, there's no Cheval Blanc for $5 a bottle, but Ravenswood Pickberry is lower than my brother (a wine wholesale buyer in CT.) can get as well as some really good Super Tuscans.

[KatieLoeb]

I don't know if our esteemed former Chairman negotiated some special deal with Ravenswood or not, but the single vineyard zins have always been pretty reasonable here in PA. The low end stuff (the Vintner's Select, etc.) could always be found for less in NJ, but the high end stuff was usually in the $25-50 range which I thought was a great price for wines of that quality.

In addition to the Ravenswood Pickberry, the Dickerson and Teldeschi are pretty good too. The only other single vineyard zins I like as much are the Ridge, which are about the same price range, sometimes a little less.

[lancastermike]

A spirit not a wine note. Luxardo Maraschino used to be a specialty item that could be had on the shelf. Than it became a SLO item. On Friday I placed a SLO for several bottles. Today I get home from work and am greeted with a message from SLO headquarters that they cannot get the Luxardo. A revolting development to a guy married to a woman who adores Aviation cocktails.

[KatieLoeb]

A spirit not a wine note. Luxardo Maraschino used to be a specialty item that could be had on the shelf.  Than it became a SLO item.  On Friday I placed a SLO for several bottles. Today I get home from work and am greeted with a message from SLO headquarters that they cannot get the Luxardo.  A revolting development to a guy married to a woman who adores Aviation cocktails.

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This does not bode well for me. I am trying to have this ordered directly through Laird distributors for the restaurant. Will have to place a call on Monday to see what I can ascertain. I hope the SLO problems are only for personal use. Sorry Mike, but I'm more concerned about not even being able to get it for restaurant use.

[cdh]

Who in the great PLCB bureaucracy gets to declare a product off limits in PA? I thought that their policy was to bring in whatever customers asked for. This sounds like a change.

[KatieLoeb]

Let me see what I can ascertain at the source on Monday, before we all panic needlessly. It might just be one of those "between shipment" things where there's none now but it's on the way. Or it might be the consumer vs commercial SLO is different. I'm not quite sure how that works. I know that they really do have to order anything you ask for if you do the legwork for them if the product isn't already in place. Southwark has real Herbsainte for their Sazerac cocktails as a result of some of their own fenaiglings.

[dagordon]

Anyone know anything about this 2002 Sequoia Grove Rutherford Reserve Cab? It got a 93 in Wine Enthusiast, can't seem to find it online for less than around $45, $24.99 through the state stores.

I saw this on the Chariman's Selections Now In Stores online, and it seemed like a pretty good value, so I picked up a couple of bottles in Yardley. I had a similar problem to what Misha encountered though -- the woman at the store initially told me that while they had a bunch of bottles, they wouldn't be for sale until some time around Easter. I persisted, and she relented, though suggested she might get in trouble with her manager...

Today I'm looking and the wine seems to have disappeared from the Chairman's Selection listing! (Both upcoming and now in stores.) But it's still in the inventory. Code is 11191.

Anyway, anyone had this?

[Jeff L]

Anyone know anything about this 2002 Sequoia Grove Rutherford Reserve Cab? It got a 93 in Wine Enthusiast, can't seem to find it online for less than around $45, $24.99 through the state stores.

I saw this on the Chariman's Selections Now In Stores online, and it seemed like a pretty good value, so I picked up a couple of bottles in Yardley. I had a similar problem to what Misha encountered though -- the woman at the store initially told me that while they had a bunch of bottles, they wouldn't be for sale until some time around Easter. I persisted, and she relented, though suggested she might get in trouble with her manager...

Today I'm looking and the wine seems to have disappeared from the Chairman's Selection listing! (Both upcoming and now in stores.) But it's still in the inventory. Code is 11191.

Anyway, anyone had this?

←

Look upthread to p 53, Mike Volker thought highly of this one, enough so that I will trek to Newtown/Yardley and pick up a few on his rec

[dagordon]

Anyone know anything about this 2002 Sequoia Grove Rutherford Reserve Cab? It got a 93 in Wine Enthusiast, can't seem to find it online for less than around $45, $24.99 through the state stores.

I saw this on the Chariman's Selections Now In Stores online, and it seemed like a pretty good value, so I picked up a couple of bottles in Yardley. I had a similar problem to what Misha encountered though -- the woman at the store initially told me that while they had a bunch of bottles, they wouldn't be for sale until some time around Easter. I persisted, and she relented, though suggested she might get in trouble with her manager...

Today I'm looking and the wine seems to have disappeared from the Chairman's Selection listing! (Both upcoming and now in stores.) But it's still in the inventory. Code is 11191.

Anyway, anyone had this?

←

Look upthread to p 53, Mike Volker thought highly of this one, enough so that I will trek to Newtown/Yardley and pick up a few on his rec

←

Ah, I see... though this only further confuses me about the availability issue... so if it was already available, what's this business about holding it until Easter?

[lancastermike]

Let me see what I can ascertain at the source on Monday, before we all panic needlessly.  It might just be one of those "between shipment" things where there's none now but it's on the way.  Or it might be the consumer vs commercial SLO is different.  I'm not quite sure how that works.  I know that they really do have to order anything you ask for if you do the legwork for them if the product isn't already in place.  Southwark has real Herbsainte for their Sazerac cocktails as a result of some of their own fenaiglings. 

←

And I do not know the whole story on my order yet. I also plan to call them on Monday for details. I hope it is just a glitch as I have SLO the Luxardo successfully in the past.

[mike volker]

Anyone know anything about this 2002 Sequoia Grove Rutherford Reserve Cab? It got a 93 in Wine Enthusiast, can't seem to find it online for less than around $45, $24.99 through the state stores.

I saw this on the Chariman's Selections Now In Stores online, and it seemed like a pretty good value, so I picked up a couple of bottles in Yardley. I had a similar problem to what Misha encountered though -- the woman at the store initially told me that while they had a bunch of bottles, they wouldn't be for sale until some time around Easter. I persisted, and she relented, though suggested she might get in trouble with her manager...

Today I'm looking and the wine seems to have disappeared from the Chairman's Selection listing! (Both upcoming and now in stores.) But it's still in the inventory. Code is 11191.

Anyway, anyone had this?

←

Look upthread to p 53, Mike Volker thought highly of this one, enough so that I will trek to Newtown/Yardley and pick up a few on his rec

←

Look upthread for the latest PLCB screwup. They distributed this and several others early. Collegeville sold out of their allotment before the recall to the back room.

I bought a case of the '01 and a case of the '02 SQ reserve, my wife wanted me to go get another case of the '02. If you like up in your face BIG Cali Cabs this is for you. I've bought a lot of Cali cabs, but for $25 what a deal.

Best,

Mike

[Dennis]

Evidently there are a lot ( I was told 10) of new CS selections in the stores but they're keeping them in the back until 3/25. They're part of an Easter/Passover promotion. I was able to get a bottle of the Montes Alpha Syrah because the stores were told to sell these wines if someone asked for them specifically...but they can't put them on the floor until the 25th.

[mike volker]

Did anyone open one of the '03 Lascombes? If so, please post a note.

Thanks,

Mike

[lancastermike]

Who in the great PLCB bureaucracy gets to declare a product off limits in PA?  I thought that their policy was to bring in whatever customers asked for.  This sounds like a change.

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So off we go to the store to pick up the one bottle that had arrived. I spoke to them about the Luxardo not being there. It seems from the paperwork sent to the store that the distributor is currently out of stock. I suppose that in one sense is good news as it appears the Luxardo is still a product they will get.

Now the good part, when the store manager tried to process the transaction he failed. I ordered over the phone from Harrisburg. As per norm they charge 50% at the time of ordering with the balance due at pick up. So, the transaction showed that they actually owed me about six bucks as the 50% for the two ordered items was more than the total price of the one I did get. No matter how much he tried he could not get his POS machine to agree to give me a refund. He concluded that it would have to be issued as a credit to my credit card by Harrisburg. The real issue was he would not let me take the bottle I did have delivered. He said he would have to call them on Monday and clear it up and than call me back. So,my bottle of Laird's 100 proof apple brandy is being held hostage.

The SLO system is cumbersome at best. As to Katie's point about the retail system being the same as the system for licensees I believe it to be the same. There are some items that I would like to order that require a case minimum order by the distributor. Over on the M thread Katie mentioned adding some rye whiskeys to her bar. Two good ones, Rittenhouse and Pikesville are case only orders. Even for many bars a case order is more than they care to make, unless it is a high volume item.

In summary most of us agree things at the PLCB are better than they used to be, but I think we all believe things are not as good as they should be.