Minimalist No-Knead Bread Technique (Part 2)

[Beanie]

This is a follow up to my previous post about the clay pot. After reading Wholemeal Crank's post, I went home last night and measured the size and capacity of my clay pot. I knew it was small, but I hadn't realized just how small --only 2 quarts. The diameter across the top is 8 inches measured from inner edge to edge. The bottom diameter is 6.5 inches. The interior depth is 3 inches to bottom of rim, 4.5 inches to top of rim. I did not scale back the quantity of dough. So those of you having problems getting a tall loaf with a 5 qt. pot may want to try something smaller. I took a look at the link to the Lodge pot from Wholemeal Crank's last post and it appears to be 8 inches across along top and bottom. The clay pot has a smaller bottom diameter and creates a loaf with sloped sides.

[sanrensho]

This is a follow up to my previous post about the clay pot.

I forgot to thank you about the clay pot info. I'll try it with my glazed nabe pot (Chinese made) and report back. My pots also have hairline cracks but have held together, despite using them both on a butane stove and electric coils.

[Beanie]

I forgot to thank you about the clay pot info

You're welcome.

I'll try it with my glazed nabe pot (Chinese made) and report back.

Good luck. I hope it works out well. Please post photo if possible.

[achevres]

I finally tried this recipe!! It is as easy as everyone says and the bread is great and even better considering it's soo easy. I did the variation posted earlier with 1/4 cup cake flour, the rest bread flour and 1 TB olive oil. I wanted to post because I used a pot no one has mentioned yet, a cast aluminum baker by Guardian (vintage) and that worked very well.

Mine has an aluminum lid.

[Joe Blowe]

Well, it's been a year since Lahey’s no-knead recipe appeared. How y'all doing? How many loaves have you made? What modifications have you made?

I'm on loaf number 49, and have played extensively with the recipe over last year. I've kept notes on results from short rises, long refrigerated rises, different ratios, etc.

Here's the "basic recipe" I've settled on, the one that gives the best results for my schedule and tastes. Feel free to add olive oil, herbs, salumi, veggies, etc.

468 grams unbleached all-purpose flour

360 grams water

9 grams kosher salt

1/4 teaspoon instant yeast

Mix the ingredients, cover, and let rest for 18 hours.

After the initial rest, leave the dough in the bowl and turn/fold the dough over using a plastic/rubber/silicone spatula. Once you have formed a nice dough ball, dust the entire dough ball with rice flour and rest for an additional 2 hours. (You'll note that by this point you will not have actually handled the dough with your hands. Not that there's anything wrong with that. And, yes, I still like kneading by hand!)

At the end of the second rise, roll the dough out of the bowl (the rice flour makes it nearly impossible to stick) into your cast iron pot that has been preheating in a 450F degree oven. Add 5ml of water to the pot before replacing the lid.

Bake for 20 minutes at 450F. Remove the loaf from the pot and bake directly on the oven rack for an additional 45 minutes at 350F.

This method results in a drier loaf (not damp in the center), and measures approximately four inches high at the center. It is not an "artisanal" loaf, but it's tamer crust makes it much more sandwich-friendly than the original recipe. The good part about keeping notes is that I can easily switch between the two styles depending on my needs for the day.

I've also been playing a lot with extended rises lasting up to 48 hours. The results have been fantastic!

[Jane Die]

It just so happens that I have a batch in the oven as I type this! This is my 4th batch, I think.

I let my dough go for 24 hours, then another two hours on the counter after I manhandle it for a few folds. So far, I've had great success. The batch in the oven was mixed with 100 grams of dark rye flour, which made for a much wetter initial dough. Some day, I'm going to try to let it go for 48 hours as Joe Blowe recommended.

I've got pictures of the first two loaves, and I'll take a couple of pics of this batch. I've been baking the loaves in a cast iron chicken fryer, roughly 4 or 5 quart capacity with high walls. I was reluctant to use my Le Creuset as it seemed a bit risky to use a $200 French oven for a $2 loaf of bread.

Anyway, it's been coming out pretty wonderful and I'll post a couple of pics when it's out of the oven.

I'm also toying with the idea of making some sourdough starter. But I'm wondering if it's worth the trouble when this simple sponge method of Lahey's works so well with outstanding results? Still, I'm going to give it a go, I think.

~0~0~0~

edited to add "Some day" because clearly I can't try anything with the batch in the oven.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Jane Die (log)

[sanrensho]

I'm also toying with the idea of making some sourdough starter. But I'm wondering if it's worth the trouble when this simple sponge method of Lahey's works so well with outstanding results? Still, I'm going to give it a go, I think.

I think you'll find it's well worth the trouble, for the depth of flavor and keeping qualities alone.

[abooja]

I've baked five loaves of NKB using the original recipe, each time with great success. (In fact, this afternoon's lunch was comprised, in part, of two slices of my latest success.) However, I've also baked around 8 or 9 loaves of sourdough versions of the same with far less success. I've tried as much as a cup and as little as a couple of tablespoons of starter, liquid starters and doughy starters, shorter rise times and longer rise times, both retarded and room temperature, and still get a yellow-hued loaf with a dense, wet crumb and a none-too-crispy crust. Given the minute amount of instant yeast called for in the original recipe, I wonder if I shouldn't change the starter amount to one teaspoon or less. I've successfully used this same starter in a few loaves of pain au levain, so I don't believe that's the problem. It's my formula. Nothing so far beats the original for a crispy, crackly exterior and an elegant, holey interior. I wish I could figure out what I'm doing wrong. Oh, well. It doesn't cost a whole lot to experiment.

-- Lisa

[Pam R]

Thanks for posting Joe. I've been meaning to get back to this bread for a while now, but haven't. The 48 hour rise is intriguing . . I'm assuming it helps to develop more flavour?

[Jane Die]

Okay, here's my history with the no-knead bread recipe. Loaf # 3 is missing, or perhaps it was never actually made..

Anyway, here's the first batch, which in my opinion was the best by far. I used KA Bread Flour and baked it in the cast iron chicken fryer, which has a heavy cast iron lid. All of these batches have risen well, which is another reason I'm reluctant to put the bread in a 7-quart Le Creuset. I don't want it to spread much, I'd rather have a good rise.

Second batch, which I think was mostly KA Bread Flour and maybe the remainder was Gold Medal Organic Bread Flour, perhaps 150 grams. The texture was finer than the first batch. I personally prefer the texture of the first to the second.

Fourth batch *or maybe the third?!?* was made today with KA Bread Flour and 100 grams of Rye. It's the darkest loaf to date, and has a crispy exterior, but a bit finer texture. The taste of the rye isn't strong, but gives it a nice tang. Still, not my favorite, but it's a good loaf.

Now, I just hope these pics show up!

Edited November 7, 2007 by Jane Die (log)

[Jane Die]

I think you'll find it's well worth the trouble, for the depth of flavor and keeping qualities alone.

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I will certainly give it a try! I'm going to scour the RecipeGullet for a sourdough starter. I'll look for a sourdough thread here at eG and post a pic of my progress (or lack thereof)! I'd love to figure this out before the holidays.

[sanrensho]

I will certainly give it a try! I'm going to scour the RecipeGullet for a sourdough starter. I'll look for a sourdough thread here at eG and post a pic of my progress (or lack thereof)! I'd love to figure this out before the holidays.

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Instructions for a sourdough starter are covered in Dan Lepard's eGullet course here:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=30269

I used a different method (this one), but I have baked the basic sourdough recipe from the eGullet course and can recommend it.

[kiliki]

I'm going to try that starter too--this bread is so easy, but for me, it just doesn't have any flavor.

I haven't read through this whole thread to see if this has been discussed, but Jeffrey Steingarten's modifications of this recipe make a better loaf. His recipe appeared in Vogue but I'll be it's out there, online.

[Special K]

I made a loaf the other day with about a quarter-cup of asiago cheese shaved right into the dough at the beginning. I never even bother to turn the dough - I just scrape the whole thing into my hot Romertopf after 18 hours of sitting there, top with a little salt or sesame seeds, and it does just fine. Next loaf will have rosemary added in as well. I've given this recipe to several friends who never in a million years would've seen themselves baking anything, much less a really good loaf of bread. They've reported fantastic sucess.

Now, on to that skillet pizza!

[Jane Die]

Special K, the addition of asiago cheese sounds great. I'll have to give that a try on my next loaf.

Sanrensho, I'm going to try the Wild Yeast Sourdough Starter. Thanks for sharing those links with me!

Kiliki, I'm going to look for Steingarten's mods, because I do think the flavor could be improved, and I thought the rye would do that but sadly it didn't.

What I'm looking for is a flavor and texture like pugliese, with all the effort of the no-knead. Maybe Steingarten is on to something. I'll research.

[sanrensho]

Sanrensho, I'm going to try the Wild Yeast Sourdough Starter. Thanks for sharing those links with me!

I wish you good luck with your starter.

Just to let you know, it took a full 5-6 weeks (including a week of dormancy in the fridge) before I had a really active and foamy starter. And it could still be more active, but it seems to be sufficient. So don't be discouraged if your starter is only bubbly in the initial weeks.

Edited November 8, 2007 by sanrensho (log)

[llc45]

I'm going to try that starter too--this bread is so easy, but for me, it just doesn't have any flavor. 

I haven't read through this whole thread to see if this has been discussed, but Jeffrey Steingarten's modifications of this recipe make a better loaf. His recipe appeared in Vogue but I'll be it's out there, online.

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What modifications did Jeffrey Steingarten make? I found one reference for it where it looks like the proportions are changed slightly. Does this give it more flavor? I am still looking for affordable smaller pot because the one I am using is making too flat a loaf.

[Joe Blowe]

The 48 hour rise is intriguing . . I'm assuming it helps to develop more flavour?

Yes, I believe it does help the flavor a bit. It's nothing approaching sourdough, but more along the lines of a biga. A touch more complex. And, I should clarify that my experimental loaves are 48 hours in the fridge in addition to 12 to 16 hours on the counter. I've hit the sweet spot a couple of times, but I continue to play around with the timing.

What modifications did Jeffrey Steingarten make?

If you Google Vogue bread "easy riser", you'll come across this blog entry. The ingredients remain the same, but, as you pointed out, the proportions changed slightly...

And, again, I agree that this recipe does not approach the complexity of sourdough flavor, but I don't believe it was ever meant to do that. It's better than your basic grocery store schlock (of which I've purchased about 4 loaves over the past 12 months ), and it has spurred on a lot of people (including me) to expand their bread-baking horizons.

[kiliki]

What modifications did Jeffrey Steingarten make? I found one reference for it where it looks like the proportions are changed slightly. Does this give it more flavor?

Ditto what Joe Blowe said. It's doesn't have more flavor, except that it has the proper amount of salt (the original Bittman recipe was undersalted IMO), but it makes a nicer looking, better rising loaf.

I am still looking for affordable smaller pot because the one I am using is making too flat a loaf.

Before you spend the money try making Steingarten's loaf (it rises more)--my first loaves, from Bittman's recipe, were pretty flat, and I used the right size Le Creuset.

[Wholemeal Crank]

Tried a batch today for the first time in a while, and this time I tried a smaller pot. I'd been looking for a heavy pot between 3 and 4 quarts, because my 5 quart dutch oven makes a very spread out loaf. I bought a cute corning ceramic pot of about 2 quarts to see what that would do, and it was definitely too small. Their is a dent in the top of the loaf corresponding to the bottom of the lid. Oops.

Still haven't encountered a clay pot or sandy pot that looked right, but now I have a better idea of what is too small.

[weinoo]

Still haven't encountered a clay pot or sandy pot that looked right, but now I have a better idea of what is too small.

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Do you think a clay pot or a sandy pot (if you're talking about the Asian cooking vessels) can take the heat needed? Especially when throwing a room temperature proofed dough into said pot?

It does seem that for this recipe, a 3 to 4 quart sized dutch oven is the right size.

[honeye22]

Still haven't encountered a clay pot or sandy pot that looked right, but now I have a better idea of what is too small.

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Do you think a clay pot or a sandy pot (if you're talking about the Asian cooking vessels) can take the heat needed? Especially when throwing a room temperature proofed dough into said pot?

It does seem that for this recipe, a 3 to 4 quart sized dutch oven is the right size.

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Hi all, I hope you can help me with this recipe. I tried to spice my loaf up the first time I made it this weekend, and used wheat flour and added oats and honey. My dough wasn't "sticky and shaggy" as the recipe said it was, it was very dense and dry. When I baked the loaf, it didn't rise or anything. It tasted really good, but I'm wondering if I needed to add more water because of the oats? A friend told me I added too much water, but I think it was the exact opposite...I'd like to make a loaf or 2 for Thanksgiving, so any help you can give would be much appreciated.

[Poffertjes]

I made it this weekend, and used wheat flour and added oats and honey.  My dough wasn't "sticky and shaggy" as the recipe said it was, it was very dense and dry. When I baked the loaf, it didn't rise or anything.  It tasted really good, but I'm wondering if I needed to add more water because of the oats? 

Wheat flour does require more water, because it sucks it up.

When I've used wheat, I did a mix of wheat and white flour. Usually 1/3 wheat, the rest white.

You should make the basic recipe, so you can get used to the feel of the dough before you start getting fancy.

[weinoo]

Hi all, I hope you can help me with this recipe.  I tried to spice my loaf up the first time I made it this weekend, and used wheat flour and added oats and honey.  My dough wasn't "sticky and shaggy" as the recipe said it was, it was very dense and dry. When I baked the loaf, it didn't rise or anything.  It tasted really good, but I'm wondering if I needed to add more water because of the oats?  A friend told me I added too much water, but I think it was the exact opposite...I'd like to make a loaf or 2 for Thanksgiving, so any help you can give would be much appreciated.

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Perhaps the oats should be soaked separately overnight before adding them to the dough...there's no doubt that they will soak up a tremendous amount of water if they're just added "as is."

Wheat flour also requires more water - and your dense and dry loaf probably indicates the need for same.

[Beanie]

Still haven't encountered a clay pot or sandy pot that looked right, but now I have a better idea of what is too small.

←

Do you think a clay pot or a sandy pot (if you're talking about the Asian cooking vessels) can take the heat needed? Especially when throwing a room temperature proofed dough into said pot?

It does seem that for this recipe, a 3 to 4 quart sized dutch oven is the right size.

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See my post about using Asian clay pot.