Minimalist No-Knead Bread Technique (Part 2)

[Blether]

Well, I won't write detail about ingredient ratios. I use a very simple flour/water/salt/yeast and I tend to like higher-side hydration. I put a tablespoon of good olive oil into a loaf made from 400g of flour, for flavour and a little more keeping power. I haven't made a point of trying leaving it out, but I'd be surprised if it has much influence on whether the loaf has stellar flavour or not.

18 hours does sound like a lot - but is that 'outside' as in outdoors, in the NY climate ? In which case, very much ballpark, depending on the season.

Proofing time for me tends to be around 5 - 6 hours at my 20C-or-thereabouts room temp, no knock-downs. A standard breadmaking text might well call it overproofed, but I've learned the point to stop it before it's too far gone for me. I rely on a breadmaker for a lot of my daily bread, and for 'hand-made' kneaded loaves I cheat by using it to knead dough for hand-baked loaves and for pizza, just cancelling the breadmaker cycle when I want to stop it.

When I do all-breadmaker bread, I'll add a little sugar sometimes to get a higher rise. As I expect you know, the sugar gives the yeast a fast start both at releasing gas and multiplying, so you get to any given level of raise in a shorter time. I don't get to alter the programming on the maker, and the cycles are pretty short.

For your hand-made loaves, I think you're right to question the amount of yeast you use. I like about 1/4tsp, again for 400g of flour, or less if I have the time / feel patient. I believe less is more, flavourwise, having experimented with it quite a lot. How much flour do you use 1/4tsp with ? I suspect your yeast ratio is already like or less than mine.

Lastly, flour. I had found a favourite brand, Haruyutaka, here in Japan, with an 11.3% gluten content, soft for a bread flour. It made such delicious bread - a featherlight long-rise loaf from this, some fresh butter and a cup of coffee and I was happy. Then last year it was discontinued and disappeared from the market. I don't know the details and I'd be happy even now to find I'm wrong about that (are you listening, helenjp ?!). I'm still in the process of testing for a replacement - I have - just a moment - 4 different white bread flours in stock.

My working hypothesis is that it's the weaker flours at about this level that have the flavour. I tried a couple of ultra-strong flours (for the Japan market, that is - the range seems lower here than in North America) at about 13% against the Haruyutaka, but they were nowhere. The second best was minori-no-oka, good flavour too but not as good as the Haruyutaka.

I'd be really interested to hear about your own trials. I can even feel the conversation pulling me towards the loaf tins already.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Blether (log)

[Blether]

Rogue's Gallery:

Bread as described

Morning rolls based on the same core approach

More rolls, like it says

Creative and original garnish idea

Edited March 24, 2011 by Blether (log)

[thampik]

Blether, Some interesting points to consider. Thanks.

I am in the middle of a variation to my original approach.

4 cups flour, 2 cups water, 1/8th tsp yeast.

I'll prove it for about 10 hrs. Stir it to remove the air pockets and leave it to prove again for 12 hrs.

Will post the results tomorrow.

[thampik]

I think this has been the best one yet - better flavour, more oven spring (not sure why), same crust and crumb.

[Blether]

That looks excellent. Are you not yet ready to share what your variation was this time ? I wanted to ask to, what sort of ambient temperature was involved in the 12-hour rise ?

[thampik]

4 cups flour, 2 cups water, 1/8th tsp yeast (half as much as in my previous attempts). Wheat used was "Waitrose Very Strong Canadian Bread Flour".

First proving for about 10 hrs (at around 20C) loosely covered with plastic wrap.

Stirred to remove air pockets and left to prove again for 12 hrs (at around 16/18C)

- covered with a cotton kitchen towel.

Removed from bowl, folded over four corners and left to rest for 15 mins.

Shaped the dough gently. Left to rise for 2 hrs.

Pre-heated oven to 230C with a cast-iron cocotte for 40 mins.

Put the dough in cocotte and closed the lid and baked for 30mins. Removed lid and continued baking for another 20 mins.

[Blether]

Wow. That is a lot of development ! Thanks for the details. I haven't gone with bread today, but I did do a wee meat project in honour of Anglo-Scottish co-operation... to be posted over the weekend after baking off, maybe in its own topic.

[weinoo]

While this isn't a gadget, it was gifted to me by someone quite a few years ago - never used, but now I'm wondering if it's the perfect size to bake bread in?

 

It's made by Dansk, 4 qts.

 

 

 

It's approximately 8" x 11", 3.5" deep and the lid adds another 1.5" of depth.

[lindag]

7 minutes ago, weinoo said:

While this isn't a gadget, it was gifted to me by someone quite a few years ago - never used, but now I'm wondering if it's the perfect size to bake bread in?

 

It's made by Dansk, 4 qts.

 

 

 

It's approximately 8" x 11", 3.5" deep and the lid adds another 1.5" of depth.

Is it clay or cast iron?

[weinoo]

Enameled cast iron.  Not as thick as a Lodge or Griswold, but still cast iron.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

2 hours ago, weinoo said:

While this isn't a gadget, it was gifted to me by someone quite a few years ago - never used, but now I'm wondering if it's the perfect size to bake bread in?

 

It's made by Dansk, 4 qts.

 

 

 

It's approximately 8" x 11", 3.5" deep and the lid adds another 1.5" of depth.

I have one of those.    Kind of "chicken shaped".    Well, rectangular chicken shaped...   Or batard shaped.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Margaret Pilgrim (log)

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, weinoo said:

Enameled cast iron.  Not as thick as a Lodge or Griswold, but still cast iron.

It should work for bread but if you’re very fond of it… Baking bread at those high temperatures in enamelled cast iron will leave you with a pen that is pretty much useless for anything else if my experience is anything to go on  

[rotuts]

@weinoo 

 

well , I dont have one of those.

 

but I have an opinion

 

of course .  it will work fine as long as your bread does not rise and touch the top.

 

pre-heat both top and bottom in the oven ,  individually

 

put your bread , right after the slash , then put the top on

 

and back.    I dont know if you have to add an ice cube or so for steam

 

take the top off during baking to dry out and brown the crust

 

don t burn your hands

[Margaret Pilgrim]

1 minute ago, Anna N said:

It should work for bread but if you’re very fond of it… Baking bread at those high temperatures in enamelled cast iron will leave you with a pen that is pretty much useless for anything else if my experience is anything to go on  

Interesting.   In what way, Anna.    I use a simple Wagner cast iron Dutch oven that actually has a better patina now since I spray with canola before every use.    What happens to the enamel in high heat?

[JoNorvelleWalker]

2 hours ago, weinoo said:

While this isn't a gadget, it was gifted to me by someone quite a few years ago - never used, but now I'm wondering if it's the perfect size to bake bread in?

 

It's made by Dansk, 4 qts.

 

 

 

It's approximately 8" x 11", 3.5" deep and the lid adds another 1.5" of depth.

 

It won't fit in the CSO.

 

As I recall the Modernist Bread folks strongly suggest not using light colored enameled cast iron for baking bread.  They recommend plain cast iron.

 

[weinoo]

Indeed what modernist says is:

 

Quote

 the cast iron is a superior heat conductor, and as opposed to the creamy white enamel that lines many Dutch ovens, and the black color is fantastic at transmitting heat by radiation.

 

Since I've never used this oven for anything else, I'm not too worried about the enamel becoming useless for anything else . Maybe it'll even become better for bread baking?

[TdeV]

50 minutes ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

As I recall the Modernist Bread folks strongly suggest not using light colored enameled cast iron for baking bread. 

 

Why, Jo?

 

[weinoo]

Jeez, they actually designed and now sell one of these...

 

https://challengerbreadware.com/product/challenger-bread-pan/

 

 

It's $295!!

[Anna N]

1 hour ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

Interesting.   In what way, Anna.    I use a simple Wagner cast iron Dutch oven that actually has a better patina now since I spray with canola before every use.    What happens to the enamel in high heat?

It becomes blackened beyond repair, the enamel becomes like sandpaper. I wish I could show you but someone else is using mine now to make bread because that’s all it’s useful for and it was a beautiful pan. 

[weinoo]

Back when I doing a bunch of Dutch oven bread baking, I used this...

 

 

The interior ended up looking like this...

 

 

But not sandpapery at all. I wonder if different enamels and enameling process matter.

 

In any event, if it's still good for bread baking and only bread baking, that would work for me.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

24 minutes ago, TdeV said:

 

Why, Jo?

 

 

Emissivity.  If I find the energy I go look for the reference.  I think it was in volume 3.

 

[Anna N]

59 minutes ago, weinoo said:

But not sandpapery at all. I wonder if different enamels and enameling process matter.

More likely how many times it is used. 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

1 hour ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Emissivity.  If I find the energy I go look for the reference.  I think it was in volume 3.

 

 

Yes -- the topic Baking At Home:  Finding The Best Vessel (p3-376ff)

 

"Ironically, popular and fancy enameled cast iron pots were one of the worst performers in our tests.  These pots usually have white or cream-colored interiors, which inhibit browning."

 

[weinoo]

Ironically, I don't remember that being too much of a problem, back when I was baking no-knead breads in an enameled, cast-iron Dutch oven.

 

 

[Margaret Pilgrim]

FWIW and around the browning problem, I take a baking loaf out of the dutch oven at about 25 minutes, or when I think it has attained its maximum jump and also is cooked enough to stand the transfer and move it onto the bare oven rack for the rest of the bake.   It is during this time that it browns.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Margaret Pilgrim (log)