"Modernist Cuisine" by Myhrvold, Young & Bilet (Part 2)

[AaronM]

It's all the same to me. Either the food is interesting, or it's not. People can label it anything they like.

The only real distinction I make is in setting. Fine dining v casual. They can both hold themselves to extremely high standards and serve exceptional food. One involves an amount of luxury - which i personally find unnecessary.

In the end, whether the technique is passe or not, does the food taste good? Is it interesting? Does it engage your senses and make you feel good? Is it as good as it can be?

Sometimes technology helps us achieve these goals, sometimes not. I'll use whatever the food calls for.

[Paul Kierstead]

It seems to me that an awful lot of MC may not appear to be so. Sure there are the spherifications, and the foams and what-not, but there are also perfectly cooked meats and the diner is none the wiser, or the perfect cheese sauce, or the constructed steak which only careful observation would notice is glued together. MC does't have to mean food which appears to be "Modern", it may well be food that appears to be traditional but is, in some way, special -- whether it be a chicken leg with no skinless portion, or a ham bonded perfectly to mackerel or a sauce with is unusually smooth or has perfect mouth feel. Or, perhaps, it is a powder is made using liquid nitrogen, but the diner need not be aware, now do they? Sure, we might like to pump the 'unusual' aspect, or novelty, but we can also use it for just plain old deliciousness.

[xxchef]

It is absolutely true that somebody on hot line in a steakhouse, can develop great skills for cooking meat without a thermometer. They still won't be as accurate as a thermometer (i.e. plus or minus several degrees) but they will be accurate enough.

However, I don't think that there is something wrong with a steak cooked using a themometer. The steaks won't taste any better if doneness is determined by poking with a finger or using a timer than with a thermometer.

Dumb question alert... What, exactly, is the proper way to use a thermometer when cooking a steak? I assume it has to be a probe-type and I was taught to never EVER poke holes in the cooking meat or risk the juices running out (always use tongs, never a fork, etc). Is this just an old wives tale / culinary myth? Was this debunked by the wizards at MC?

[AaronM]

In my unscientific experience, yes you'll lose some liquid by probing the meat, but it isn't such a quantity that will affect the quality of the meat.

Perhaps someone can correct me on that.

[nickrey]

Dumb question alert... What, exactly, is the proper way to use a thermometer when cooking a steak? I assume it has to be a probe-type and I was taught to never EVER poke holes in the cooking meat or risk the juices running out (always use tongs, never a fork, etc). Is this just an old wives tale / culinary myth? Was this debunked by the wizards at MC?

Before MC, there was a whole thread on the use of the Jaccard to tenderise steaks (see here). This works by putting many small holes in the steak. NathanM was a key contributor to this thread. He, and others, found that the holes actually reduce juice leakage from the steak. I cooked two pieces of the same steak, one jaccarded and one not for exactly the same time. The jaccarded one weighed more than the non-jaccarded one, showing it retained more "juice" (Total weight loss post resting Jaccarded - 13.64%; non-jaccarded - 17.19%)

I think this whole thought process of juices leaking comes from the totally incorrect concept that searing the meat at high heat somehow "seals in" the juices. Nathan et al write at length in the book about the properties of meat and how heat affects it and, like McGee, debunk this myth.

In answer to your specific question, yes you will lose a bit of "juice" but it does not form a well from which the juices will flow from the sealed meat.

[AaronM]

Out of morbid curiosity I checked to see what the vultures were doing with this on eBay. Not one. Not a single set on eBay. I'm shocked.

[IndyRob]

AaronM makes a good point. People love to identify new trends, or claim that trends are over. Being late to recognize a trend isn't very special, so people tend to jump the gun.

In MC chapter 1 I discuss an article by Gael Greene from New York Magazine in 1981. In it she says that Nouvelle Cusine is "over, finee, mort, dead". It is the sort of broad prouncement that journalists love to make, especially those who position themselves as jaded sophisticates. Instead of being dead, Nouvelle went to in inspire a generation of American chefs.

I think it might be fair to say that there is starting to be a trend away from being conspicuously modernist. I don't think any of the solid techniques will go away. Instead they'll just stay in the background as fryolators always have. I don't think we'll see a lot of new WD-50 type concepts.

It's like the early '80s when personal computers were becoming popular. Computer store signs using computery MICR fonts were de riguer. Just being compuerized was cool in and of itself. Before long, we had proper fonts and everyone was trying to see how many they could use on a single page. Finally we came (generally) to use fonts more wisely and tastefully. And the devices today are very fashionable in a mainstream way, despite being packed with more high tech geekery than most people would've ever dreamed possible.

[AaronM]

AaronM makes a good point. People love to identify new trends, or claim that trends are over. Being late to recognize a trend isn't very special, so people tend to jump the gun.

In MC chapter 1 I discuss an article by Gael Greene from New York Magazine in 1981. In it she says that Nouvelle Cusine is "over, finee, mort, dead". It is the sort of broad prouncement that journalists love to make, especially those who position themselves as jaded sophisticates. Instead of being dead, Nouvelle went to in inspire a generation of American chefs.

I think it might be fair to say that there is starting to be a trend away from being conspicuously modernist. I don't think any of the solid techniques will go away. Instead they'll just stay in the background as fryolators always have. I don't think we'll see a lot of new WD-50 type concepts.

This is only fair in how it might pertain to ultra fine dining. We haven't even begun to see what the trickledown effect of these techniques will be as to everyday dining.

[IndyRob]

This is only fair in how it might pertain to ultra fine dining. We haven't even begun to see what the trickledown effect of these techniques will be as to everyday dining.

Well, this was in the context of statements from food critic-types, so it wasn't really about everyday dining. But it's still an interesting question. MC itself is not likely to directly affect everyday dining much overall (for price reasons alone). Perhaps it will pressure people like Alton Brown to address sous vide or something.

But the question that this brought up in my head is "How can we measure the impact on everyday cooking?". eG is probably pretty bad as a representative sample. I have some anecdotal evidence that brining, for instance, is seeing some penetration into homes around Thankgiving time. But what about sous vide? I don't think I've ever heard a reference to it from a non-media, non-foodie person.

[OliverB]

If you keep poking, you'll loose some juice, but it's not like you're bleeding a live animal. I actually use one of those bbq thermometers on a wire with a small wireless sender and receiver unit. The probe goes in before the meat goes in the bbq and stays in it all the way trhough. Mine has a small display on the sender so I can see the internal temp right there, or on the remote receiver in the kitchen or where I may be. Doesn't work for the 100ft advertised but works well enough for distances I'm at.

I often actually leave it in during resting too, just to see the temp change as a nerdy scientific observation on the side. I also have a digital probe that I use sometimes (not a thermapen though, find them too expensive) and I sometimes leave that in if something is in the frying pan, I just make sure the plastic part is hanging off to the side. (don't do that on a gas stove though, I think you'd melt it and create a terrible mess.)

Mostly I think the loss of juices is remedied by the searing that locks in the juices. Or - probably more true, it should be put aside with that old wives tale

Unless you poke 50 times to calculate some temp average, one little hole won't do anything bad to your meat.

The not using a fork might make more sense, if you flip something often. If you flip it once, I doubt it makes a difference. Just as me using tongs does not squeeze the meat or the juices out.

[Kerry Beal]

This is only fair in how it might pertain to ultra fine dining. We haven't even begun to see what the trickledown effect of these techniques will be as to everyday dining.

Well, this was in the context of statements from food critic-types, so it wasn't really about everyday dining. But it's still an interesting question. MC itself is not likely to directly affect everyday dining much overall (for price reasons alone). Perhaps it will pressure people like Alton Brown to address sous vide or something.

But the question that this brought up in my head is "How can we measure the impact on everyday cooking?". eG is probably pretty bad as a representative sample. I have some anecdotal evidence that brining, for instance, is seeing some penetration into homes around Thankgiving time. But what about sous vide? I don't think I've ever heard a reference to it from a non-media, non-foodie person.

On the Egghead forum (for Big Green Egg owners) they talk about 'hot tubbing' their steaks before cooking in the BGE - I guess technically they are foodies, but certainly not along the lines of eG foodies.

[AaronM]

I'd say the comment about brining is accurate in my experience. My general gauge of a technique's popularity is when my sister mentions something to me without be bringing up anything.

Like, "Hey, I heard about using a blowtorch on roasts. What's the deal with that?" Which means she heard about it from your standard media sources.

Purely anecdotal, but it's a barometer of sorts for me.

[IndyRob]

On the Egghead forum (for Big Green Egg owners) they talk about 'hot tubbing' their steaks before cooking in the BGE - I guess technically they are foodies, but certainly not along the lines of eG foodies.

That's interesting. I wonder if it comes from sous vide or from something like parcooking bratwurst in beer and onions.

[Kerry Beal]

On the Egghead forum (for Big Green Egg owners) they talk about 'hot tubbing' their steaks before cooking in the BGE - I guess technically they are foodies, but certainly not along the lines of eG foodies.

That's interesting. I wonder if it comes from sous vide or from something like parcooking bratwurst in beer and onions.

I'm pretty sure it came via sous vide. They are putting the steaks in at about 100 - 110 F for about an hour until they come up to temperature - to get an evenly red interior and only have to sear for a couple of minutes a side to get good char.

[roygon]

On the Egghead forum (for Big Green Egg owners) they talk about 'hot tubbing' their steaks before cooking in the BGE - I guess technically they are foodies, but certainly not along the lines of eG foodies.

That's interesting. I wonder if it comes from sous vide or from something like parcooking bratwurst in beer and onions.

That Big Green Egg 'hot tub' steak was actually my first attempt at sousvide-like cooking and the excellent results is what made me look for more information and ending up here. You aren't likely to hear a serious BGE'er say "sous vide" which is why it is named "hot tubber" but the method is very similar.

If I recall, the temperature for that method was much lower than typical - around 45C or so to get the internal temperature up a little and then you sear it for quite a bit longer than you would with a traditional sous vide steak - obviously less time than a non hot-tubbed steak but more than the minute or so per side you generally sear post sous vide.

rg

Edited March 13, 2011 by roygon (log)

[IndyRob]

That Big Green Egg 'hot tub' steak was actually my first attempt at sousvide-like cooking and the excellent results is what made me look for more information and ending up here. You aren't likely to hear a serious BGE'er say "sous vide" which is why it is named "hot tubber" but the method is very similar.

If I recall, the temperature for that method was much lower than typical - around 45C or so to get the internal temperature up a little and then you sear it for quite a bit longer than you would with a traditional sous vide steak - obviously less time than a non hot-tubbed steak but more than the minute or so per side you generally sear post sous vide.

rg

That's even more interesting because it's nearly the perfect middle ground between sous vide and the Joy of Cooking method that involves warming the steak to room temp before searing it. Does the steak tub directly in a liquid, or in a plastic bag?

[Kerry Beal]

That Big Green Egg 'hot tub' steak was actually my first attempt at sousvide-like cooking and the excellent results is what made me look for more information and ending up here. You aren't likely to hear a serious BGE'er say "sous vide" which is why it is named "hot tubber" but the method is very similar.

If I recall, the temperature for that method was much lower than typical - around 45C or so to get the internal temperature up a little and then you sear it for quite a bit longer than you would with a traditional sous vide steak - obviously less time than a non hot-tubbed steak but more than the minute or so per side you generally sear post sous vide.

rg

That's even more interesting because it's nearly the perfect middle ground between sous vide and the Joy of Cooking method that involves warming the steak to room temp before searing it. Does the steak tub directly in a liquid, or in a plastic bag?

A ziplock or foodsaver bag is specified.

[xxchef]

Before MC, there was a whole thread on the use of the Jaccard to tenderise steaks (see here). This works by putting many small holes in the steak. NathanM was a key contributor to this thread. He, and others, found that the holes actually reduce juice leakage from the steak. I cooked two pieces of the same steak, one jaccarded and one not for exactly the same time. The jaccarded one weighed more than the non-jaccarded one, showing it retained more "juice" (Total weight loss post resting Jaccarded - 13.64%; non-jaccarded - 17.19%)

Fascinating. Thanks for referring the other thread. Good stuff, indeed.

[Okanagancook]

I too have my order bumped back to sometime in April and I ordered early August. Oh, well, the price was right.

[nathanm]

Amazingly, MC is currently #39 on the Amazon sales list among all books. #40 is the Steig Larsson novel The Girl Who Played with Fire. We are really moving into the big time if we can overtake that book.

It is #3 in cookbooks, the only books above it are Hungry Girl 300 and Blood, Bones and Butter.

I think that the reason is that an interview with me ran on National Public Radio today, or anyway that is the only event that I can think of that would make it spike up like this.

This still leaves me with the dilemma of deciding how many books to print for the second printing. Is the sales spike today a harbinger of things to come, or a temporary uptick?

[Fat Guy]

I'd have told you not to order 10,000 originally, and I'd have been wrong. So I'm not sure my advice is worth much (what else is new?). It seems to me, however, that the argument for 20,000 is pretty strong. I'm operating under the assumption that you achieve your greatest cost savings at 20k copies and that there's not much to be gained from going up to 25k or 30k. The advantages of going to 20k are 1- you get a crack sooner at correcting typos and such for the third printing, and 2- you limit your exposure a little if orders dry up in the teens. The disadvantage is that you're not as prepared for Christmas if you do big numbers, but it seems to me you'll have a lot of sales-trend data to work with by summer so you can always do a big Christmas order in August if you need to. That leaves the one downside scenario as the one where you only need 5,000 more copies so you overpay per unit. I'd rather risk that than risk getting stuck with 5,000 unsold units.

[nathanm]

Your assumptions are correct. The incremental price break gets smaller and smaller, so it is not really a factor.

Another factor is how soon we can actually get the copies - we are working on that too.

It turns out that the whole second printing thing has been complicated by the Japanese earthquake/Tsunami disaster. The paper for the book is Japanese, and it looks like we might not be able to get it, so we we may need to switch papers. This is not a big deal, but it shows how interconnected the world is these days.

[runwestierun]

How could he ever possibly be stuck with books? This isn't a typical book. This isn't something that will come into fad and go out of favor. This is the kind of book that will have a market as long as people are being born. The only reason I can think of to limit second run numbers under 30,000 now is the paper quality you mention.

[runwestierun]

Let me elaborate. Let's just look at cookbooks. Say you want a modernist cookbook. It's fall of 2008 and you buy Alinea. You love it, you see the eBulli book is out. You buy it, you love it, your friends take notice. They look at modernist books, think about them, but then the Big Fat Duck book comes out. They buy that. There is always a bell curve of interest about a book, there is always another book coming after the last one in all book categories. It's newer, shinier, and they are all pretty much the same. So people buy the new one and the older one falls by the wayside.

But what's the category for Modernist Cuisine? Most Awesome Book Ever? Who is going to write the book to replace this one? Are they going to build a 40,000 square foot lab and hire 100 people for 5 years and spend $20M? In that case you're safe for 5 years.

People who want a book on 30 minute meals will buy the latest 30 minute meal book. People who want a book on Indian cooking will buy the Indian cookbook highest up on Amazon's bestseller list. But if you want to know about food science, you will buy this book. There will be no other book tomorrow to replace it. This will be the benchmark.

I think the best analogy for this book is Mastering the Art of French Cooking. It was a massive intellectual undertaking, it took years, it was huge, nothing like it had ever been done, people were starved for it. I think it was published in 1961. And I look at Amazon today, and it's #40 in cookbooks.

Is there a finite market, will everyone who wants one buy one and then it'll be done? No, because everyone who wants one doesn't know they want one yet. Maybe they aren't even interested in cooking yet. Maybe they just started culinary school. Maybe they're 15. This is THE book and will be THE book for many many years. It doesn't matter how many you order. You can't order too many. You can only order too few.

[pedro]

The price tag is completely different, but I'd look at how many copies have been sold of "On Food and Cooking" since its first edition to the present day. And I'd venture that the demand for MC will be significantly higher.

I just ordered from Amazon.com since I'm tired of Amazon.ca excuses. Any chance that my order would still be fulfilled with the first edition? Or is it too late for that?

Edited March 13, 2011 by pedro (log)