Pronunciation of culinary/food-related terms: Why do it wrong?

[liuzhou]

Regarding whether or not to pronounce the 'h' in 'herb'; while there is a regional variation it was originally pronounced and spelled everywhere without the initial 'h' as 'erbe',

 

Quote

Chaucer The Legend of Women Prologue. 109 To speke of gomme or erbe or tre.

 

Pronunciation of the 'h' became prominent for unknown reasons (despite having been used much earlier) in the early 19th century in British English but not in American English.

There is a British comedian (opinions differ on that designation) who features a rant about herb vs 'erb in one of his routines saying that it must be herb as it has the 'h' while ignoring words like 'heir', 'honest', 'hono(u)r', 'hour'. It is very common to drop /h/. London is famous for it and for inserting /h/ where it apparently unrequired. I give you "I'll be 'avin' 'am and heggs for breakfast!"

I eat eggs with herbs (pronounced /hɜːbz/.

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by liuzhou (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I can't hear herb with an aspirated h without conjuring Martha Stewart.  

[lindag]

Me too!

[liuzhou]

We did an experiment in London where we played recordings of phoneticians saying 'herb' very carefully, some with the /h/ and some without. Many listeners reported hearing the /h/ in them all, although vocal tract x-rays and voice prints etc could prove there was no /h/ in half of them.

Some heard no /h/ in any.

We never told them what we were testing for.

People often 'hear' what they are expecting to hear.

Edited February 20, 2023 by liuzhou (log)

[Kim Shook]

Pee Cans are what long haul truckers use.  I don't want none of that in my pie.  

[Kim Shook]

On 2/18/2023 at 3:38 PM, liuzhou said:

 

I heard someone pronounce almond as you describe, just today. I was going to post about it but you beat me. How common is it? I've heard it in England, too.

i don't remember anyone but this person saying it that way.  

 

I went to a pasta making class yesterday (it was a great class and you'll all be glad to hear that I'm thinking of trying again after my spell of pouting after my last try) and everyone, including the two instructors was says maR-sca-pone.  🙄🤐

[liuzhou]

18 minutes ago, Kim Shook said:

everyone, including the two instructors was says maR-sca-pone.

 

What irritates me most about 'mascarpone'is not the intrusive-r (common in many English dialects) but that so few people pronounce the final 'e'. It doesn't rhyme with 'phone'!

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/mascarpone

[Kim Shook]

1 hour ago, liuzhou said:

 

What irritates me most about 'mascarpone'is not the intrusive-r (common in many English dialects) but that so few people pronounce the final 'e'. It doesn't rhyme with 'phone'!

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/mascarpone

I remember hearing somewhere that that in Italian you pronounce all the vowels.  Not sure if that's strictly true, but it would help in trying to pronounce "mascarpone".  

[liuzhou]

1 minute ago, Kim Shook said:

I remember hearing somewhere that that in Italian you pronounce all the vowels.  Not sure if that's strictly true...

 

Almost always.

[KennethT]

In NY American Italian, it's common to drop the last vowel - so manicotti is manicott or even manigot. Drives me craz.

[Duvel]

3 hours ago, KennethT said:

In NY American Italian, it's common to drop the last vowel - so manicotti is manicott or even manigot. Drives me craz.

 

Is it the same for NY American German, like in Porsch* ..?
 

—-

* yes, a food-related term if you use yours to frequent the drive-in of your fast food joint of choice (or necessity) …
 

 

[heidih]

3 minutes ago, Duvel said:

 

Is it the same for NY American German, like in Porsch* ..?
 

—-

* yes, a food-related term if you use yours to frequent the drive-in of your fast food joint of choice (or necessity) …
 

 

Not really pronounciation but the funniest one to me is the US fast food  chain Wienerschnitzel.  My dad's company was supplying the dogs. Still huge. The weekky ads usually contain coupons. https://www.wienerschnitzel.com/about/ Originally Der Wienerschnotzel My mom was so offended she had my dad lobby Galardi to 86 the "der". Still hot dogs and schnitzel have nothing in common.

[blue_dolphin]

4 hours ago, KennethT said:

In NY American Italian, it's common to drop the last vowel - so manicotti is manicott or even manigot. Drives me craz.

Yes!  My NJ cousins, who are second generation Italian American, pronounce mozzarella as mustadell, ricotta is ree-goat and prosciutto is pruh-shoot.

[MaryIsobel]

40 minutes ago, blue_dolphin said:

Yes!  My NJ cousins, who are second generation Italian American, pronounce mozzarella as mustadell, ricotta is ree-goat and prosciutto is pruh-shoot.

Just like the Sopranos!

 

[Kerry Beal]

On 2/19/2023 at 11:37 AM, liuzhou said:

We did an experiment in London where we played recordings of phoneticians saying 'herb' very carefully, some with the /h/ and some without. Many listeners reported hearing the /h/ in them all, although vocal tract x-rays and voice prints etc could prove there was no /h/ in half of them.

Some heard no /h/ in any.

We never told them what we were testing for.

People often 'hear' what they are expecting to hear.

And see what they are expecting to see - I did a psychology of learning course with Dr Lee Brooks of McMaster University in my undergrad - words left out of sentences, letters left out of words - we see them even when they aren't there. I found the whole thing fascinating. 

[liuzhou]

 

56 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

And see what they are expecting to see - I did a psychology of learning course with Dr Lee Brooks of McMaster University in my undergrad - words left out of sentences, letters left out of words - we see them even when they aren't there. I found the whole thing fascinating. 

 

For many years, there was a sign above the windows of every carriage on London Underground trains which read something like

 

 

Very few people saw the error.

 

But back to pronunciation, I've mentioned this before elsewhere on eG, but 'restauranteur' drives me crazy, especially when said by restaurateurs. There is no /n/ in the word!

 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by liuzhou (log)

[Kim Shook]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:48 PM, liuzhou said:

But back to pronunciation, I've mentioned this before elsewhere on eG, but 'restauranteur' drives me crazy, especially when said by restaurateurs. There is no /n/ in the word!

 

 

Many people, including my in laws say "almondeene".  I grit my teeth when I hear that.  I know WHY they do it - it seems logical, but it's not right.