Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 9)

[paulraphael]

To be honest, it sounds very much like those infomercials where the woman is having trouble cracking an egg without her fancy, plastic egg cracker selling for $19.99..  . 

 

Before making that analogy, maybe consider that most of the top contemporary chefs cook their proteins sous-vide. They still break eggs by hand.

 

If the process doesn't appeal to you, no one's going to twist your arm. You asked why anyone would cook a burger like this. I've given a lot of reasons. This is old, old news by now. Chefs have been cooking their proteins SV for over 30 years. If it seems like a fad, it's only because us rabble haven't been able to afford the tools until recently. 

[basquecook]

ok, so assume someone has the ability to cook a proper burger, what portion of the burger does physic say will be "medium to beyond well done" compared to what portion of a deep fried, grilled, boiled burger will be.   Obviously, there is a number because it's science and physics involved. And you said significant.. So what are the numbers. 

 

To be honest, it sounds very much like those infomercials where the woman is having trouble cracking an egg without her fancy, plastic egg cracker selling for $19.99..  . 

 

still waiting for this to be answered... You said, significant portion will be over cooked.. Then you use physics and science to prove your point.  What are the numbers that you are referring to.   I am saying, 80 percent of the time, people make up facts to prove, 32 percent of their arguments. 

Edited May 31, 2014 by basquecook (log)

[basquecook]

i guess.. i am talking about places in NYC that use sous vide.. and these are like the top tier restaurants around town. 

 

i can identified when it's used and often find it while perfect looking, it tastes dry to me, not juicy and really soulless.  i guess for all the reasons people like it, i don't..  the same reason why i guess people like it, i guess i don't.. i have experimented with it sous vide off an on for 10 years.. i am just not a fan.   it is possible i guess, for a person not to like sous vide. 

 

edit to add, it makes a killer poached egg.

Edited June 1, 2014 by basquecook (log)

[rotuts]

"""   it tastes dry to me, not juicy and really soulless  """

 

I find this interesting.  Im not disagreeing with you, after all those are you taste buds working.

 

i have not done duck breasts SV yet.   i do have a duck resting in the freezer, at some point Im going to do the two trimmed 

 

breasts SV and the legs 'SV-Confit' and render all the fat.

 

ive cooked a lot of Ducks, using Madeleine Kamman's  Duck in Two Courses  :

 

first the duck breast w skin on rare, the legs high temp roasted while you eat the Breast(s)

 

(she didnt call it that, but I do  saw her do in on a very old PBS series she had.

Edited June 1, 2014 by rotuts (log)

[paulraphael]

I actually do have trouble with statements about disliking sous-vide meat. It's not because I'm arguing with anyone's tastes; it's that I don't think there are any innate characterstics to sous-vide meat. Sous-vide* is just one of a handful of means of getting very precise temperature control in a humid cooking environment, for food that may or may not be finished by some other method. 

 

There are some conventional ways of using sous-vide cooking that some people may not like. The most popular way to to cook meat to a low level of doneness, with a low temperature delta, so you get rare or medium rare edge from edge to edge. I happen to like this. I you don't, you're not obligated to use it this way. 

 

Dryness? It's possible, especially with meat that's been tenderized with long cooking times. But it's not a characteristic of the process. You can also achieve more juiciness than what's possible with any other method. I believe we could verify that or any other of these claims by blind taste test. 

 

There are certainly some limitations for certain kinds of food. I like salmon and black bass cooked with the skin on; I haven't found a satisfactory way to do this sous-vide. I can't get anything similar to roasted vegetables. It's generally impractical for a big roast or joint.

 

*this is a lousy name for the process, because we're not talking about vacuum sealing as much as water bath temperature control

[gfweb]

I think that the normal palate is conditioned to expect a degree of toughness in certain meats eg chicken breast or London broil.  If not there, it doesn't taste "right".

[Baron d'Apcher]

Perfect, perfectly...

 

Perfection is what one finds in a vending machine, studio album, calculations or automated mass production.  Grilling/cooking with friends conjures pleasing nuances, similar to the crooked lines on hand-blown goblets, live music and heirloom vegetables.  Pasteurizing a burger so that it is safe to eat doesn’t strike me as exciting and brings an almost clinical element to the event, kind of like that unpleasant tingly feeling I get anytime someone puts on rubber gloves to perform and benign task (though I use them exclusively when cutting proteins or messy tasks –keeps the fingernails clean).

 

And it’s a hamburger, the great equalizer, humdrum National mascot, America’s backyard contribution to food culture and perpetuator of cheap feedlot beef; not tournedos Rossini.  Though maybe some like to play minigolf with a full set of specialized clubs and a caddie or hire Billy Bean to manage a recreational co-ed softball team. To each their craving and obsession.

 

Most important is the provenance of the meat (moisture, fat, dry-age, animal age, animal’s diet, marbling, tenderness, sinew, etc…) ground in clean conditions and the proper forming of the patty sufficiently in advance (a day prior) to let the myoglobin do its thing and allow the ground meat to stick to itself and not fall apart.  After that, a clean hot grill,  basic senses (touch it, feel it, hear it, smell it) and even modest skill will make for a fine, plump, juicy burger eaten with some haste so that it doesn’t lose all its juices.

 

Grilling over charcoals or wood provides the flavor –both the heat source and drippings from the ingredient which smoke over the embers.  Color of doneness within an accepted margin is aesthetics, and it will disappear after charring, caramelizing the natural sugars and creating near unanimous good flavor and crusty crunch.  Caramelized/seared beef tastes better than poached beef. That applies to almost anything from nuts to toast.

 

Aside from appearing to be gimmicky, contrived and perhaps a waste of time and resources (plastic bag, electricity) the notion of “perfection” is hopelessly subjective given that the original ground beef product is not a constant, varying from meat to and meat and patty to patty.  There are very few constants in cooking aside for maybe water, rendered fats, industrial condiments, processed cheese and factory milled flours.  Even dried beans vary from year to year and while the method of cookery is deemed “perfect”, the results might not be.

 

SV may very well be helping a generation to unlearn how to cook using fundamental senses and  make them entirely dependent on technology; reduced to pressing buttons and setting timers to hit an unfixed and organic target. SV definitely has its merits, but we’ve all enjoyed seemingly “perfect” burger before the advent of cooking in warm fish tanks.  As for the pictured SV burger, the caramelization looks delicately thin, like a lacquer.  I’d wager that a heartier sear would taste better.

[dcarch]

Perfection is what one finds in a vending machine, studio album, calculations or automated mass production.  --------

 

Have you ever watched any cooking shows? Read any on-line recipes? Which one is not the "very best", the  "perfect recipe", the "ultimate way"?

 

And it’s a hamburger, the great equalizer, humdrum National mascot, America’s backyard contribution to food culture and perpetuator of cheap feedlot beef; not tournedos Rossini.  Though maybe some like to play minigolf with a full set of specialized clubs and a caddie or hire Billy Bean to manage a recreational co-ed softball team. To each their craving and obsession.

 

You can say that about fermented grape juice also.

 

Most important is the provenance of the meat -------- and even modest skill will make for a fine, plump, juicy burger eaten with some haste so that it doesn’t lose all its juices.

 

And there is no guarantee that a great chef will not produce hockey  pucks.

 

Grilling over charcoals or wood provides the flavor –both the heat source and drippings from the ingredient which smoke over the embers.  --------------

 

And that's what many people do with sous vide. 

 

Aside from appearing to be gimmicky, contrived and perhaps a waste of time and resources (plastic bag, electricity) the notion of “perfection” is hopelessly subjective given that the original ground beef product is not a constant, varying from meat to and meat and patty to patty.  There are very few constants in cooking aside for maybe water, rendered fats, industrial condiments, processed cheese and factory milled flours.  Even dried beans vary from year to year and while the method of cookery is deemed “perfect”, the results might not be.

 

More the reason why sous vide can be very helpful.

 

SV may very well be helping a generation to unlearn how to cook using fundamental senses and  make them entirely dependent on technology; reduced to pressing buttons and setting timers to hit an unfixed and organic target.

 

I don't know about your kitchen, but today's kitchens are packed with buttons to press. a SV cooker is much simpler than a microwave oven, when it comes to buttons.

 

---------- As for the pictured SV burger, the caramelization looks delicately thin, like a lacquer.  I’d wager that a heartier sear would taste better.

 

The thickness of caramelization on a SV product is entirely up to you. SV gives you the freedom of having thicker char without overcooking, and thinner char without having to worry about food safety.

 

dcarch

Edited June 2, 2014 by dcarch (log)

[paulraphael]

Baron! I would agree with you that "perfection" is largely subjective. I would doubt, however, that in a blind taste test, anyone here would include a ring of dried-out, overcooked meat in their personal definition. This is one of the things s.v. offers a solution to. Of course, you could use s.v. to achieve exactly this quality, if you so desired. And you'd be able to do it precisely and do it every time. It's quite friendly that way: imagine your version of perfection, then design a s.v. process that will achieve it.

 

I'm skeptical about people "unlearning" how to cook because of s.v.. I don't know of anyone who's picked it up as a beginner's method. Personally, I find it's improved the cooking I do by other methods. It's taught me things about what happens at spefici temperatures, and with small variations in time, which would be very difficult to learn otherwise. When food is in the oven or on a grill there are just so many variables, and kitchen thermometers can only be in one place at a time (and aren't impressively accurate). 

Edited June 2, 2014 by paulraphael (log)

[paulraphael]

I can tell you that I am not a fan of sous vide steak -- I prefer other methods (scorching hot mineral pan or steamed at 130, then seared) -- but that is all preference -- I simply didn't care for the sous vide steak --

What didn't you like about the s.v. steak?

 

I'm interested especially in the difference between s.v. and the steak steamed before searing. This last method sounds like what combi oven or cvap oven does, and the only practical difference between these and s.v. is that they require a really freakin' expensive oven.

[Unpopular Poet]

What didn't you like about the s.v. steak?

 

I'm interested especially in the difference between s.v. and the steak steamed before searing. This last method sounds like what combi oven or cvap oven does, and the only practical difference between these and s.v. is that they require a really freakin' expensive oven.

 

Strangely enough, in all of my attempts at sous vide steak, it just never worked out as I had hoped it would -- all other cuts (short ribs, roasts, etc) came out amazingly well -- but for some reason, I could never get the sous vide steak to taste as good as the plain old mineral pan and clarified butter steak -- The steamed steak -- in an at home cuisinart steamboy -- worked well -- for some reason -- which I know -- makes no sense -- it should be the same as sous vide, right?  

 

I almost feel like the sous vide steak dried out too much -- which also didn't make much sense to me.  I know I am not doing anything wrong -- it just doesn't suit my taste for steak -- nor my wife's.  I feel like the flavor on a sous vide steak is good (obviously) but what one makes up for in additional beefy flavor, I seem to lose the overall steak juiciness.  I feel like this is an anomaly though -- but it kept happening --the steaks seems to lose so much liquid when I cooked them -- and I even went so far as to change the sealing % -- from 99.9% all the way down to about 90% -- but there was still a significant amount of liquid in the bag.  Less so, than when I steamed them in fact.  The look was there of course, just not the taste I was hoping for.  I suppose it is time to try it again!

[gfweb]

Some of the issue is expectation.

I expect a steak to be a little chewy.

[SobaAddict70]

Here's a pic of the afore-mentioned SV short ribs.

These were cooked sous-vide for 36 hours, then deep-fried prior to being plated. Served with carrot, daikon radish, scallion, pickled mustard seeds and fried parsley.

Not at all chewy; rather, meltingly tender, almost buttery iirc. The crust had a nice char to it. It was my fave dish of the evening. A pity that one has to jump through hoops just to eat at Ko, but that's another topic entirely.

[lordratner]

Perfection is what one finds in a vending machine, studio album, calculations or automated mass production.  Grilling/cooking with friends conjures pleasing nuances, similar to the crooked lines on hand-blown goblets, live music and heirloom vegetables. 

 

All subjective, so this is as much right as it is wrong. Some people enjoy precision cooking as much as you enjoy the sound of a grill.

 

Pasteurizing a burger so that it is safe to eat doesn’t strike me as exciting and brings an almost clinical element to the event, kind of like that unpleasant tingly feeling I get anytime someone puts on rubber gloves to perform and benign task (though I use them exclusively when cutting proteins or messy tasks –keeps the fingernails clean).

 

It probably matters a lot to someone with a compromised immune system

 

And it’s a hamburger, the great equalizer, humdrum National mascot, America’s backyard contribution to food culture and perpetuator of cheap feedlot beef; not tournedos Rossini.  Though maybe some like to play minigolf with a full set of specialized clubs and a caddie or hire Billy Bean to manage a recreational co-ed softball team. To each their craving and obsession.

 

Then what is the point of this post?

 

Most important is the provenance of the meat (moisture, fat, dry-age, animal age, animal’s diet, marbling, tenderness, sinew, etc…) ground in clean conditions and the proper forming of the patty sufficiently in advance (a day prior) to let the myoglobin do its thing and allow the ground meat to stick to itself and not fall apart.  After that, a clean hot grill,  basic senses (touch it, feel it, hear it, smell it) and even modest skill will make for a fine, plump, juicy burger eaten with some haste so that it doesn’t lose all its juices.

 

Or, using all that awful science, I can make the patties and hour in advance instead of a day, and eat it at my leisure without racing against the juices running out. 

 

Grilling over charcoals or wood provides the flavor –both the heat source and drippings from the ingredient which smoke over the embers.  Color of doneness within an accepted margin is aesthetics, and it will disappear after charring, caramelizing the natural sugars and creating near unanimous good flavor and crusty crunch.  Caramelized/seared beef tastes better than poached beef. That applies to almost anything from nuts to toast.

 

This sentence most illustrates your almost complete ignorance with the technique. Reference previous posts for crust discussions. The idea that color of doneness is simply a style choice is a bit... well... wrong.

 

Aside from appearing to be gimmicky, contrived and perhaps a waste of time and resources (plastic bag, electricity) the notion of “perfection” is hopelessly subjective given that the original ground beef product is not a constant, varying from meat to and meat and patty to patty.  There are very few constants in cooking aside for maybe water, rendered fats, industrial condiments, processed cheese and factory milled flours.  Even dried beans vary from year to year and while the method of cookery is deemed “perfect”, the results might not be.

 

Agreed. We really should have stuck with throwing our meat onto an open fire and eating it after it turned black.

 

SV may very well be helping a generation to unlearn how to cook using fundamental senses and  make them entirely dependent on technology; reduced to pressing buttons and setting timers to hit an unfixed and organic target. SV definitely has its merits, but we’ve all enjoyed seemingly “perfect” burger before the advent of cooking in warm fish tanks.  As for the pictured SV burger, the caramelization looks delicately thin, like a lacquer.  I’d wager that a heartier sear would taste better.

 

So sear it more. One of the many benefits to SV is the ability to isolate exterior sear from interior doneness, and choose the (subjective) best of both worlds.

I remember when the older pilots banded together and proclaimed the GPS instrument approach was unreliable and less precise than the old ways. We younger pilots were lesser pilots because we didn't practice the fix-to-fix, and no amount of reduced navigation errors, better equipment, or successful landings could change their minds.They were threatened by the change, as we humans are prone to do. 

 

I learned how to sous vide meat before any other technique. It's what got me into cooking. I've spent the years since then refining the technique while learning the more traditional methods. There's an elegance to the Duchaise (sp?) method that If you look at the meats I SV'd then and the meats I SV now, the difference is night and day, because I have been able to combine the knowledge from each method to improve the results. 

 

SV is no different than confit, braising, bain marie, beer can chicken, marinade injecting, or putting tin foil over a turkey until the last 20 minutes. They are all methods of control. The only difference between them and sous vide is your parents didn't use it while you were growing up.

[paulraphael]

I almost feel like the sous vide steak dried out too much -- which also didn't make much sense to me.  I know I am not doing anything wrong -- it just doesn't suit my taste for steak -- nor my wife's.  I feel like the flavor on a sous vide steak is good (obviously) but what one makes up for in additional beefy flavor, I seem to lose the overall steak juiciness.  I feel like this is an anomaly though -- but it kept happening --the steaks seems to lose so much liquid when I cooked them -- and I even went so far as to change the sealing % -- from 99.9% all the way down to about 90% -- but there was still a significant amount of liquid in the bag.  Less so, than when I steamed them in fact.  The look was there of course, just not the taste I was hoping for.  I suppose it is time to try it again!

How long were you cooking for? Could you describe the steaks (cut, thickness) and the cooking methodology? It's not so surprising to dry out steaks when cooking s.v., under certain circumstances.

[Unpopular Poet]

How long were you cooking for? Could you describe the steaks (cut, thickness) and the cooking methodology? It's not so surprising to dry out steaks when cooking s.v., under certain circumstances.

I would say that a good example would be a 1.5 inch ribeye, salted (I have tried no salting as well - same results) and bagged with a bit of butter and sealed at 95-99% and then dropped in a 125-130 degree bath (depending on what I wanted) for 2 hours tops -- sometimes 90 minutes.  Out of the bath, rested for a couple minutes, then dried off and placed in a super, super hot mineral pan with either no fat or smoking clarified butter (just depended on the fat content of that particular steak).  Then let to rest for another few minutes and then eaten.  That's about it.  Maybe the ribeye is the wrong cut?  Dunno.

[paulraphael]

You've stumped me. Ribeyes are fabulous, and 2 hours isn't too long. When you get into much longer cooking times, a cut like that can become too tender (this is when people complain about mushiness) and it can also lose so much juice that it gets dry. But I don't know why you were getting dry steaks at those times.

[Anna N]

You've stumped me. Ribeyes are fabulous, and 2 hours isn't too long. When you get into much longer cooking times, a cut like that can become too tender (this is when people complain about mushiness) and it can also lose so much juice that it gets dry. But I don't know why you were getting dry steaks at those times.

Can I jump in here? Rib eye is my steak of choice and I have cooked many, many of them sous-vide. My experience has been that meat quality counts even more with sous vide than other methods. Well-marbled I get the steak of my dreams but anything less and I end up with something dry and tasteless. A grilled steak of less than stellar quality can still be tolerable but sous vided it is almost inedible. This strikes me as strange when sous vide is touted as something that turns a sow's ear into a silk purse for cheaper cuts but cheaper is not the same thing as lower quality. Just my two cents.

[paulraphael]

Can I jump in here? Rib eye is my steak of choice and I have cooked many, many of them sous-vide. My experience has been that meat quality counts even more with sous vide than other methods. Well-marbled I get the steak of my dreams but anything less and I end up with something dry and tasteless. A grilled steak of less than stellar quality can still be tolerable but sous vided it is almost inedible. This strikes me as strange when sous vide is touted as something that turns a sow's ear into a silk purse for cheaper cuts but cheaper is not the same thing as lower quality. Just my two cents.

Very interesting. I think you're right about the sow's-ear-to-silk-purse idea. It's about turning tough cuts into tender ones, not cheap tender ones into expensive tender ones. But I don't want to make assumptions about Unpopular Poet's steak. People get results that are hard to explain out of every cooking method. 

[Anna N]

Very interesting. I think you're right about the sow's-ear-to-silk-purse idea. It's about turning tough cuts into tender ones, not cheap tender ones into expensive tender ones. But I don't want to make assumptions about Unpopular Poet's steak. People get results that are hard to explain out of every cooking method.

Absolutely. I didn't mean to make assumptions only offer my own observations.

[basquecook]

Perfection is what one finds in a vending machine, studio album, calculations or automated mass production.  Grilling/cooking with friends conjures pleasing nuances, similar to the crooked lines on hand-blown goblets, live music and heirloom vegetables.  Pasteurizing a burger so that it is safe to eat doesn’t strike me as exciting and brings an almost clinical element to the event, kind of like that unpleasant tingly feeling I get anytime someone puts on rubber gloves to perform and benign task (though I use them exclusively when cutting proteins or messy tasks –keeps the fingernails clean).

 

And it’s a hamburger, the great equalizer, humdrum National mascot, America’s backyard contribution to food culture and perpetuator of cheap feedlot beef; not tournedos Rossini.  Though maybe some like to play minigolf with a full set of specialized clubs and a caddie or hire Billy Bean to manage a recreational co-ed softball team. To each their craving and obsession.

 

Most important is the provenance of the meat (moisture, fat, dry-age, animal age, animal’s diet, marbling, tenderness, sinew, etc…) ground in clean conditions and the proper forming of the patty sufficiently in advance (a day prior) to let the myoglobin do its thing and allow the ground meat to stick to itself and not fall apart.  After that, a clean hot grill,  basic senses (touch it, feel it, hear it, smell it) and even modest skill will make for a fine, plump, juicy burger eaten with some haste so that it doesn’t lose all its juices.

 

Grilling over charcoals or wood provides the flavor –both the heat source and drippings from the ingredient which smoke over the embers.  Color of doneness within an accepted margin is aesthetics, and it will disappear after charring, caramelizing the natural sugars and creating near unanimous good flavor and crusty crunch.  Caramelized/seared beef tastes better than poached beef. That applies to almost anything from nuts to toast.

 

Aside from appearing to be gimmicky, contrived and perhaps a waste of time and resources (plastic bag, electricity) the notion of “perfection” is hopelessly subjective given that the original ground beef product is not a constant, varying from meat to and meat and patty to patty.  There are very few constants in cooking aside for maybe water, rendered fats, industrial condiments, processed cheese and factory milled flours.  Even dried beans vary from year to year and while the method of cookery is deemed “perfect”, the results might not be.

 

SV may very well be helping a generation to unlearn how to cook using fundamental senses and  make them entirely dependent on technology; reduced to pressing buttons and setting timers to hit an unfixed and organic target. SV definitely has its merits, but we’ve all enjoyed seemingly “perfect” burger before the advent of cooking in warm fish tanks.  As for the pictured SV burger, the caramelization looks delicately thin, like a lacquer.  I’d wager that a heartier sear would taste better.

 

i wish i were as eloquent. 

[basquecook]

I have yet to cook a burger sous vide, mostly because of the convenience factor (my own that is), and also, because I rarely cook burgers anyway.  I can tell you that I am not a fan of sous vide steak -- I prefer other methods (scorching hot mineral pan or steamed at 130, then seared) -- but that is all preference -- I simply didn't care for the sous vide steak -- that being the only item I didn't love to do sous vide.  I also think that there is a small trend out there that is implying that if you sous vide, you are simply lazy or unable to do it otherwise, which I disagree with.  At the end of the day, preference and time are what controls.  Sous Vide is part of a huge set of tools to get to what we each determine to be perfect in our own minds and palates -- if someone isn't choosing to use it, they are using other tools -- and there is nothing wrong with that.   But there is also nothing wrong with relying on sous vide.  I am definitely going to make sous vide burgers this week though -- and finally get that grinder attachment out that has been sitting in its packaging for far too long.  I assume the burger will be delicious -- but maybe not to my liking.

 

i recently viewed a post of your's on the dinner thread in where you sous vide a sweetbread prior to deep frying it or pan frying it.. Would you say that you were happy with the results or that sous vide'ing the sweetbreads helped the results.. You spoke of briefly cooking the sous vide.  Can you talk more about this.. i am not attacking you and I understand that with out experimentation, nothing can be gained.. But, i just wanted to know more about the results.. To me, it looked unsuccessful but, i am curious as someone who is not a sous vide person to beginwith, how you feel about it..  

 

 

this sort of sparked my feelings on sous vidiing a hamburger. as something that is so simple not requiring such a complicated process.

[Tri2Cook]

this sort of sparked my feelings on sous vidiing a hamburger. as something that is so simple not requiring such a complicated process.

I think that's the point that's being overlooked or ignored by some. Nobody said it was required, they said it's what they want/like to do. Almost everything we do with food is based on preferences, not requirements. I mean, spear a hunk of meat on a stick and hold it over a fire and nothing beyond that is required for the cooking of meat.

 

[dcarch]

"------ Almost everything we do with food is based on preferences, not requirements. ----"

 

Except when it comes to food safety.

 

The perfect control of temperature offered by the SV method makes it much simpler. As a matter of fact, throw away your thermometer, it does not matter how thick or how cold your meat is when you cook SV.

 

dcarch

[gfweb]

There's a need for a reasoned voice here. For mysterious reasons it falls to me to provide it.

 

SV has its applications were it does a great job...as does traditional methods.

 

Consider a single cooking method...braising (ie low and long cooks in water). Braising is great for a short rib but disastrous for fish.

 

Doesn't mean braising is bad because it ruins fish even though its great for the short rib.