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KaffirLime

Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 4)

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Oh experts, pray tell me how long for a boneless ham, about 5kg?

I'm guessing 60C for 12hours or so.

SInce its Xmas I will add apple juice and cloves...


Edited by jackal10 (log)

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I love doing a pre-SV smoke for doing BBQ.... works great for ribs....  the other weekend, I did a SV version of cochinita pibil after watching Rick Bayless do it in a pit in the ground... since I don't have any ground, or a pit, I figured doing it SV was the next best thing... 

Took 2 pounds of boneless pork shoulder and coated with achiote/lime juice marinade... then wrap in banana leaves, and smoked (in stovetop smoker) over a combo of hickory and oak for about 30 minutes - in hindsight, I might smoke it a little longer next time...

Then into the bag, and into teh 180F waterbath... I think I left it in there for about 8 hours, but I'd have to check my notes to be sure....

When finished, I pulled it and it was really nice - super tender, but not mush, with a suble smoke flavor, and subtle flavor from the banana leaves, and a lot of the fat rendered out...  Then I reduced the liquid in the bag (pork juices, achiote marinade and some fat), and poured over the pulled pork and let it sit in the warming oven until my tortillas were ready...

Put that in a corn tortilla with some pickled onions and some habanero salsa... heaven...

I've seen that episode with the cochinita pibil. Looks damn good.

Well, I don't actually have a stovetop smoker but I figure it's not hard to rig something up with some foil and a rack or two.

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Before investing in the stovetop smoker, I used to do it in a wok with a rack and some aluminum foil.... not hard to set up, but once I started doing it enough, I figured it was good to invest in the real thing... What I did was put the shavings in the bottom of the wok (line the bottom with alum. foil first or your wok will turn black) then cover with another piece of aluminum foil... put the rack above that to hold what's being smoked (ie the pork) then cover the whole thing with a foil tent... my stovetop smoker company (Cameron's) recommends using a burner of 5-6 - it starts smoking in about 5 minutes...

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I'm planning on cooking 10lbs of wagyu beef brisket in the next couple of days. It seems that most people here have had a better experience cooking their briskets for 48 hours at 135F rather than the 147F that Keller uses. But for Keller's briskets, he uses Wagyu beef and I don't think anyone else here has tried that yet.

So do you think I should go with 135 or 147? Do you think the type of beef will make a difference?

Also, should I do any marinade or rub first?

Thanks for your help.


Mike

The Dairy Show

Special Edition 3-In The Kitchen at Momofuku Milk Bar

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Oh experts, pray tell me how long for a boneless ham, about 5kg?

I'm guessing 60C for 12hours or so.

SInce its Xmas I will add apple juice and cloves...

I'm no expert, but I'd have thought a touch higher, maybe 63/65. (That's the sort of core peak temperature I shoot for when conventionally poaching an, admittedly rather smaller, bit of cured ham.)

Since you are cooking to equilibrium temperature and its not going to be "overcooked", I'd expect that longer wouldn't hurt - probably just render the collagen more thoroughly? Also, since he's likely a big lump compared to the size of your bath, he's going to chill the bath when he goes in, probably for some while.

Maybe worth remarking that the minimum time to attain equilibrium temperature is going to be determined by the starting temperature. The uplift from fridge temperature is half as much again as the uplift from room temperature.

There's one school of thought that the bone improves heat conduction - though I'm not sure whether this is due to the bone itself, the marrow or the bone/meat interface. Anyway, the result is that boneless would mean longer cooking.

My guess would be that 24 hours wouldn't hurt since you are going to equilibrium.

I think I'd be a bit cautious with cloves in the bag. I find them very pervasive in ordinary cooking, and suspect that long sv might enhance that property!

Isn't it more usual to stud them into the fat after skinning and before glazing the thing? And for Christmas, wouldn't some Cinnamon, Allspice, Nutmeg, Ginger, Star Anise and even Peppers add some pleasant notes?

How would dry cider and/or bramley apple sauce do in the bag with or instead of the apple juice?

Are you going to put some onion, celery and/or other herbal aromatics in the bag?

Watching Nigella on BBCtv the other night, I was a bit astonished at the anise-heavy brew she came up with for her spiced ham poaching liquor. But the smoked paprika in the glaze sounded a nice touch ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/database...ham_84672.shtml


"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch ... you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan

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I am doing turkey sous vide for Christmas. I was considering the following:

140 degrees for the white meat 3 hours.

150 degrees for the dark meat 12 hours. (Would longer be better to make the meat tender?).

Are these times/temperature OK?

Thanks,

Chuck

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my understanding was that 141f was the minimum safe temperature that you could cook any poultry to (with proper times allowing for the appropriate 5D/6D reduction in salmonella).

that being said I would cook the white meat at 140/141 and confit the legs.


Sous Vide Or Not Sous Vide - My sous vide blog where I attempt to cook every recipe in Under Pressure.

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135F/57C is significantly below the temperature that most people feel is the lowest you can go for "just done" breast meat in poultry. Most people are happier with at least 60.5C/141F for breast meat, and this temperature is likely to seem undercooked for leg meat.

As for the times, 12 hours seems excessive. All that is needed for pasteurization at 60.5C is around 5 hours, and even at the lower temperature Jack proposes, 6.5 hours would be sufficient for pasteurization of a piece as thick as 70 mm. While the leg meat may derive some benefit from longer cooking (although not at either 57C or 60.5C, in my opinion), this is not so with respect to the breast meat.

Chuck, your proposed temperatures and timings seem about right to me. You may want to go longer with the breast meat to get pasteurization, depending on how thick it is. The temperature of the leg meat will depend on the effect you desire. Do yourself a favor and read or search through this thread. You will find plenty of information on cooking turkey.


--

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Your information is incorrect. There is a link somewhere in this thread to the FDA guidelines. 135F for a sufficient time is sufficient for pasteurization of poultry. The time at 141F is much shorter than at 135F.

Too hot.

135F for 12 hours for both. Sear before and after.

my understanding was that 141f was the minimum safe temperature that you could cook any poultry to (with proper times allowing for the appropriate 5D/6D reduction in salmonella).

that being said I would cook the white meat at 140/141 and confit the legs.

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Chuck, your times and temperatures are in the right ball park. I actually detailed how I was going to prepare my families turkey up thread in post #2129; since I picked up an organic free-range turkey, I skipped the brining steps; I also left the skin on the breast and crisped it (and the dark meat) in a pan with oil at 350F/180C; for the gravy, see post #2197.

While it is true that you can pasteurize poultry at 136F/57.5C (see Tables 4.7 and C.11 in my guide), most people find the color and texture disturbing. Meat and poultry is the most tender around 140F/60C because that is when the sarcoplasmic proteins finish aggregating/gelling and before the muscle fibers have started to shrink longitudinally (and squeeze out the moisture).

Sam is quite right that even 140F/60C is a bit low for dark meat --- I typically cook my legs and thighs at either 155F/68C for 24 hours or 176F/80C for 8--10 hours (often after brining and with a couple tablespoons of rendered fat in the bag).


My Guide: A Practical Guide to Sous Vide Cooking, which Harold McGee described as "a wonderful contribution."

My Book: Sous Vide for the Home Cook US EU/UK

My YouTube channel — a new work in progress.

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Thanks everyone for the responses.

I think I am set on the white meat. It came out great last time I did it. The dark meat didn't, so that was my main concern.

My plan was to use a little butter or duck fat(never used duck fat before) if I can find it for the dark meat, along with some (sage, thyme, pepper). I will brine the meat.

Would I be better off going with 155F 24 hours or 176F for 8-10? I tried doing 176F with vegetable oil last year and didn't care for the results. I didn't like the flavor of the vegetable oil and it was not as juicy as I would like. The goal is for it to be juicy and fall off the bone tender.

Thanks again for the help,

Chuck

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This topic is amazing...

I've spent some free time to past 2-3 days to pour over all of the information contained here. I cannot wait to buy nathanm's book when it comes out. If there's a list for autographed copies I'd love to be included.

I originally bought an immersion circulator for a well controlled water bath to hold tempered chocolate but now that will take a back seat to all of the sous vide cooking that will be coming to my kitchen.

Many thanks to everyone who has contributed to vast wealth of sous vide knowledge.

Cheers

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This is a question that I think has been addressed to some extent over the course of the thread but I'd love to get some specific thoughts on something I'm cooking.

I've been experimenting with SV for a few months now. I have had some great results and have found some things I wouldn't do again.

As we speak I am SVing duck legs confit in preparation for a holiday meal tonight. Plan is to go 8 hours at 180 degrees F. My question is the following: when I put the legs in the bath, the temperature dropped to 160 and, an hour later, has only crept back to 172. Do I start my 8 hours from the initial immersion, or from the time we are at 180?

Equipment: Auber PID, Euro-Pro Crock Pot. I need to cultivate my scientist friends in order to procure a real immersion circulator.

Thanks

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That should not happen. I cooked six duck legs (Moulard) sous-vide yesterday, also at 180° (83°c) for ten hours. My Julabo circulator brought the bath back to temperature in ten minutes and the legs came out beautifully. Perhaps you need a larger container. For six legs I used a huge stock pot. How many legs did you cook?


Ruth Friedman

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As we speak I am SVing duck legs confit in preparation for a holiday meal tonight. Plan is to go 8 hours at 180 degrees F. My question is the following: when I put the legs in the bath, the temperature dropped to 160 and, an hour later, has only crept back to 172. Do I start my 8 hours from the initial immersion, or from the time we are at 180?

Equipment: Auber PID, Euro-Pro Crock Pot. I need to cultivate my scientist friends in order to procure a real immersion circulator.

Thanks

I've found the Auber/crock pot combination extremely slow to respond to temperature changes: it's the main failing of that combination. You might have better results with a large rice cooker, and certainly immersion circulators will be more responsive.

That said, for confiting duck legs, there's not too much harm in overcooking: i would just go an extra hour or two.


---

al wang

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Thanks Ruth and Alwang. Ruth, was it you who responded to my deep frying question some months back?

Today I am doing four legs in the Crock Pot. I think you guys are right about the size of the vessel. I will look into a larger rice cooker and simultaneously will start bugging my scientist friend for an immersion circulator. I am going to let these legs go a little longer as per your suggestions.

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This is a question that I think has been addressed to some extent over the course of the thread but I'd love to get some specific thoughts on something I'm cooking.

I've been experimenting with SV for a few months now. I have had some great results and have found some things I wouldn't do again.

As we speak I am SVing duck legs confit in preparation for a holiday meal tonight. Plan is to go 8 hours at 180 degrees F. My question is the following: when I put the legs in the bath, the temperature dropped to 160 and, an hour later, has only crept back to 172. Do I start my 8 hours from the initial immersion, or from the time we are at 180?

Equipment: Auber PID, Euro-Pro Crock Pot. I need to cultivate my scientist friends in order to procure a real immersion circulator.

Thanks

Have you tried starting off with water at a higher temperature so when you add the cold ingredients it comes back to your desired cooking temperature?

If there was a 20 degree drop on adding the legs, a logical starting point would be around 200 degrees. If it is still too hot after adding the ingredients, you can add some cold water or leave the lid off the cooker for a while to bring it back to your cooking temperature.


Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"The Internet is full of false information." Plato
My eG Foodblog

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Tabletop roasters hold a lot of water and are quite inexpensive. I use a Hamilton Beach that I picked up for $10 at a thrift store for large cuts of meat. The temperature drop is pretty minimal as long as you are using the appropriate volume of water.

Thanks Ruth and Alwang. Ruth, was it you who responded to my deep frying question some months back?

Today I am doing four legs in the Crock Pot. I think you guys are right about the size of the vessel. I will look into a larger rice cooker and simultaneously will start bugging my scientist friend for an immersion circulator. I am going to let these legs go a little longer as per your suggestions.

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Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

All's well that ends well. I used alwang's idea of keeping them in the bath a little longer. They turned out perfectly. Guests were very happy with them and so was I.

Picture is attached. They were served with brussels sprouts in mustard sauce and a millefeuille of sweet potatoes with truffle oil.

Looking forward to more SV adventures.

gallery_61986_6303_57590.jpg

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Thanks Ruth and Alwang. Ruth, was it you who responded to my deep frying question some months back?

Today I am doing four legs in the Crock Pot. I think you guys are right about the size of the vessel. I will look into a larger rice cooker and simultaneously will start bugging my scientist friend for an immersion circulator. I am going to let these legs go a little longer as per your suggestions.

Yes, I think I told you where to buy peanut oil in large format


Ruth Friedman

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well, my third effort at sous vide this week...

1)removed the both legs and thighs from a 21 pound turkey.

2)applied the Keller rub (salt and thyme) for 12 hours to the legs/thighs, bagged in the fridge .

3) rinsed each leg/thigh piece, and vacumn sealed it in a bag with 1-2 cups of frozen duck fat, and some pepper.

4)sous vide for 10 hours at 180 degrees

i brined the remainder of the bird (breasts/wings, 12 hours) and roasted it in the oven to an internal temp of 160 degrees over about 3 hours...perfectly cooked..

the sous vide leg/thigh meat was spectacular...succulent, fell of the bone, and

so favorful, it made the breast/white taste meat tast bland..

highly recommended... confit of turkey legs!!


Edited by Heartsurgeon (log)

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Given the season and my memories of Turkey as a very dry meat, I thought I'd try cooking it sous-vide.

For a twist, I tried a galantine for the first time.

After boning the turkey breast, I made a seasoned minced meat stuffing of two parts pork belly (the fattiest I could find) to one part veal. This was put through the mincer twice, the second time with some ice cubes to ensure that the mix didn't split when cooked. The mince was seasoned with salt and pepper.

On top of the turkey breast, which the meat was distributed evenly across, a layer of mince was followed by a layer of hazelnut puree, some dried cranberries that had been soaked in Sherry and drained, some pine nuts, chopped home made bacon and strips of belly pork (without the fat) and turkey breast meat.

I then rolled the galantine, tied it off with some cooking twine and then sealed it in a vacuum bag.

It was quite thick (more than 20 cm at its thickest point) so it required extended cooking to ensure that it was cooked through.

It was cooked sous-vide at 65 degrees celsius (149 fahrenheit) for twelve hours and then cooled in an ice bath to take the heat off before being placed in the refrigerator overnight.

For eating, it was sliced and served cold with the gelled cooking juices from the bag.

Quite the opposite of my previous experiences with Turkey, this was very moist with an interesting flavor contrast with the stuffing.

Here is a picture of the finished product (must practice my boning and rolling).

IMGP0401.jpg


Nick Reynolds, aka "nickrey"

"The Internet is full of false information." Plato
My eG Foodblog

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What's up cooks

I am opening my own place selling prepared meals that people take home and heat up. Everything that we will sell is vacuum sealed, and the better part of it cooked en sous vide. I was hoping for suggestions on things that anyone has found NOT to work well in a bag. Also, if anyone has time to check out my menu My WebpageI would be stoked to get any feedback especially when it comes to things you may see that you know from experience will or will not work. I am just beginning to test these recipes and I have no qualms about dropping or adding things. Another issue I have is that the people that take the meals home do not have a temperature controlled water bath, and I am trying to figure out a method for reheating from frozen that can be used with just a pot of water on the stove. Any suggestions would be great!

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...I am opening my own place selling prepared meals that people take home and heat up. Everything that we will sell is vacuum sealed, and the better part of it cooked en sous vide. ...

My first concern is food safety. When home and professional chefs cook sous vide, they have completely control of the cold chain. It is highly likely that the food you sell will be temperature abused, and sous vide prepared foods do not spoil safe. At the very least, you should pasteurize the food for a 6D reduction in Listeria monocytogenes and have very short and prominent expiration dates. This of course limits what you can prepare --- most fish will taste overcooked if heated for the pasteurization times in Table 3.5 of my guide.


My Guide: A Practical Guide to Sous Vide Cooking, which Harold McGee described as "a wonderful contribution."

My Book: Sous Vide for the Home Cook US EU/UK

My YouTube channel — a new work in progress.

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      6. At Trio we found ourselves using the salamander a great deal. It is very useful for melting sugar, bringing on transparent qualities in things like fat and cheese, cooking items intensely on only one side, and it is a highly controllable non-direct heat source. Due to the air gap between the foodstuff and the heat elements the cook can control the degree of heat applied to the dish based on the technique he is using. It becomes a very versatile tool in the modern kitchen, so much so that we will install three Sodir infrared salamanders.

      Again, this is to insure that all the cooks have access to all of the techniques in the kitchen. As I said before it is important for our cooks to be able to sauté, simmer, poach, fry, grill, salamander, and freeze at the same time and sometimes for the same dish.
      We have a few unusual pieces of equipment in the kitchen; the most is probably a centrifuge. A few months ago Nick and I were driving home from a design meeting and ended up talking about signature dishes and menu repetition. Of course the black truffle explosion came up and he asked if I would have it on the menu at Alinea. I replied a firm no, but shortly thereafter said I would enjoy updating it. We threw around some tongue and cheek ideas like White Truffle Implosion, and Truffle Explosion 2005….I said it was a goal of mine to make a frozen ball with a liquid center….but then dismissed it as nearly impossible. Within a few minutes he said …”I got it…we need a centrifuge” His explanation was simple, place the desired liquid in a spherical mold and place on the centrifuge…place the whole thing in the freezer. Within days he had one in the test kitchen. I guess this is better suited for the kitchen lab topic that we will be starting in a few weeks…
      We are working on a upload of the kitchen blueprints. When those post I plan on going into more detail about certian aspects of the design. Doing so now would be pointless as the viewer does not have a reference point.
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